So in starting a new campaigne as a GM I had some players who wanted to pull off a nasty combo. One was going to build a rogue/monk Grappler and the other a druid. The druid would cast Spike Growth and the Grappler would drag enemies through it(Via moving around the area while dragging the enemies through it).
After much research on the topic of grapple and forced movement I found that 5th ED has very little on the topic of forced movement. What they had on Grapple was a bit unclear(Well generally clear but they fail to state a few things that most overlook).
So here is how I handled it.
A: I pointed out that having a target grappled does not make them weight less, They would have to take into account their strength and current gear and the targets fully geared weight and how that could effect their movement.(carry capacity = 15 x str score drag = 30 x str score if they exceed their carry capacity then the drag speed is reduced to 5ft). An average modestly geared human would weigh about 220lbs so you would need at least a 15 str score to carry or drag such a target without further penalty to your speed provided you had little gear yourself.
B: While moving with a target, the target moves how they move, if they move along the ground then they can either carry or drag the target, if they are airborn(Via flight or jumping) then the target must be carried.
C: If a target is carried then it occupies the same square as the grappler, in case of large opponents, at least one square must be shared(Grappler's choice), and at the end of the move the grappler decides how the target is placed in an adjacent square.
D:If dragged, then as the target is moved, it inhabits the space the grappler vacates, so if the grappler wished to drag a target through an area they would have to preceed them.
E:On other forms of forced movement, if the target is moved through areas of difficult terrain then they would still require extra movement to enter such squares.(provided the one doing the forced movement wanted them to be effected by those squares in the first place. If you want to levetate a target through a spike growth so they take the damage then they would be effected by the slowing effect as well as the damage. If you want to move them over it then they will not take the damage or be slowed.)
I hope this helps other DMs with similar issues otherwise feel free to discuss my personal rullings here.
Edit: One more thing I pointed out. Since grapple ends if the target is moved out tf the grapplers reach then it's entirely possible for the grapple targets ally to move up, grapple the already grappled target, and move away with them. I also pointed out though that they can do the same should one of them become grappled.
In My opinion you are going the wrong route with this ruling.
there is no issue with the grappling rules as they are on the phb and even the combo you described is in no way overpowered.
by putting all these limitations to the grappling rules you are just discuoraging your players to play what they enjoy.
grappling builds are in no way powerful as they have so many situations in wich they don't work at all
in most cases in wich they work you are better going with a "regular" build and deal more dmg or more control
in your case the combo requires 2 ppl to work and is way inferior to what the 2 ppl could do by just "fighting regularly" with optimal builds
and most importantly you are limiting the enjoyment and creativity of your players.
again, in MY OPINION, you are going down a dangerous route to try to give "realistic" rules to an unrealistic game and by doing so making so someone has less fun in the process.
It's a game, whats the point of playing if not having as much fun as you can?
I like your idea D. The rest of the ideas I believe could be applied where necessary depending on circumstances; however I wouldn't add them as a house rule. Many of the grapple checks can be mitigated by the spell Misty Step. For those that do not have Misty Step, a grappled creature can still make attacks against its opponent.
phoenixnemo wrote:
Assuming the monk has a speed of 40 feet, you're looking at 8d4 extra damage for moving a grappled creature since speed is halved when you do that. It's 16d4 when the monk uses a Dash action, which it can do as a bonus action by spending ki. At this point, the monk can then take the Attack action. So that's probably around 48 damage or thereabouts on a single target, assuming the monk hits with an attack, plus it cost a spell slot and a ki point. This also assumes that the monk wins the grapple contest and there's probably some measure of setting this up which may include area denial for the party. It also doesn't work on monsters that are two sizes larger.
A rogue and a fighter could do a little more than half that damage with no resource expenditure - just two successful attacks including sneak attack. (I'm figuring 3rd-level characters here.)
So I don't think it's "OP" at all. And cinematically rather cool. I see no reason to make onerous rules to disincentivize players doing it. Hit the druid with an attack and see if he or she fails the Concentration check.
How does the monk/rogue drag a target through the spikes without going through the spikes themselves?
Generally, the way I handle a grappled target's movement is when the PC moves, the target moves into the space the PC vacates, keeping the grappled target adjacent to the PC. So point D looks like what I do.
So if I'm reading what you posted correctly, the monk/rogue IS moving through the spikes and taking the target along for the ride... that the monk takes damage too, it's not an overpowered tactic. Did they use this tactic once you limited them to moving the target into a space the monk vacates? Does the monk/rogue have a way to avoid or mitigate the damage?
I could see someone ruling differently though... that the target doesn't have to move to the space the monk/rogue vacates.
It's not unlike fight scenes in movies when someone is grabbed, and while the grappler is running along, they pull their victim beside them into glass or other obstacles.
But if you do rule that way, isn't the area of spike growth considered difficult terrain? If the monk isn't also travelling through it, they're able to move faster than the target, which is stuck in difficult terrain... I'd likely treat everywhere the monk moves also as difficult terrain since the terrain of the target is also affecting the monk's movement, so the monk would only be able to move half as far. It's like you're walking on a sidewalk, and you're pulling a wagon with someone in it, but the wagon is off of the sidewalk and in sand. It is going to be significantly harder to drag the wagon along with you, and since the wagon won't move as well, you can't either if you want to maintain your grip on the wagon. Is that what you mean by your point E?
Bloodscythe wrote:
Cyrosgold wrote:
Two characters focusing on one trash enemy should more or less be able to take him out without issue, as you're seeing. That's why they don't fight a single trash enemy.
Hit the druid with some arrows or fireballs. Have the target grapple back (so they're both at 0 movement speed). Have the target escape the grapple. Have the grappled target "Help" his friend grapple the grappler (for advantage). Have the grappler pulled into the thorns himself. Or just have two guys side by side so that if the grappler wants to drag somebody, he's provoking attacks of opportunity.
This setup has so many counters without even going out of your way to counter it that I'm not really sure why you're even trying to stop it. My suggestions above are far from the best. If it's what they want to do, work with it.
I'd just make a Barbarian and pick dudes up and throw them into the Spiked Growth, then.
I think you are overthinking this.... and thus making the 'solution' way to complicated.
You are not 'carrying' the grappled target, so weight shouldn't be much of an issue.
This will be a fairly effective combo against a very narrow set of opponents. What if there is a band of goblins, or two bugbears. What if the target is Huge.
This will be very effective if they are fighting a single creature that is someewhat weak and not very big. I don't see that being OP enough to worry about.
Coredump00 wrote:
Cyrosgold wrote:
TokuBreaker wrote:
Cyrosgold wrote:
Long story short, you're the DM and you can rule it however you'd like. RAW though, they're in the clear.
Grappled movement is cut in half, that is all. No weight restrictions come into play because they did not pick up the target. All speed reductions relevant to a grapple are included in that half-cut.
If you don't like grappling and all that it entails, tell your players that it will not be happening at your table. Let them know now so they can play characters that you approve of. Houseruling limitations in is just going to reduce their fun and put you at odds with them.