Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 15, 2014 10:47:46	Don't unless you're doing one of the following three things: You don't care if your character is suboptimal in combat. This is likely one of the best reasons, actually. You just hit 18th level as a single-classed spellcaster and really like the 1-3 levels in another class more than your own. As an example, Sorcerer's Quickened Spell. You need something essential to your build such as either Extra Attack, consistent Advantage, a consistent use for your bonus action or reaction, and/or a Nova option. Fighter 5, Rogue 3 on Dex Fighter, Barbarian 2-3 on a Str Fighter, etc... Why is MC'ing outside those areas so problematic? Because the system assumes that you double your damage output from levels 4-5 if your character is of standard optimization levels. Namely you're not variant human, you invested your feat bump into +2 primary stat which is a solid choice, and therefore, don't have a consistent bonus attack or reaction. With Weapon-Users, that means you get Extra Attack or a hefty dose of survivability/+1d6 Sneak. With casters, that means you got actual 3rd level spells to fill those 3rd level spell slots. Of course, if you've got a tofu DM who doesn't know how to build a tough challenge properly or a DM willing to design challenges tailored to the group(and this 2nd one is awesome and far too rare), you can ignore this - but in those scenarios, optimization is usually not all that relevant unless one member of the group is horribly underpowered/overpowered compared to everyone else to the point that someone is unhappy about it.
#2 FluffyBunbunKittens Sep 15, 2014 10:55:29	Mainly a caster doesn't want to multiclass at all until the last levels. Warriors don't want to multiclass until hitting lv5 and that magical 2nd attack. No-one wants to level up in chunks less than 4, because that would mean you lose stats/feats.   Why exactly did they put in a level-by-level multiclass scheme again..?
#3 Polaris Sep 15, 2014 11:13:26	That depends, but the fact you mention about multiple attacks is why Warlock 2 (maybe 3) is such a solid MC for almost all caster classes (or Cha classes in general).  EB gives you the multple attacks the system assumes based on character level rather than class level and it's about the only sort of attack form where this is true.   The only other option (again Warlock 2 or 3) is if your DM assumes that the level prerequisites for Warlock invocations are character rather than class levels.  If it is, then dipping three levels into warlock can give any class two attacks via Pact Blade and the thirsting blade invocation.  {For the record, I do not agree with this interpretation.}   -Polaris
#4 Kalani Sep 15, 2014 11:44:55	The first two posts are highly subjective, and are also inaccurate.   Yes, you lose access to higher level abilities, however depending on your mc choices, the advantages gained are of comparable value - depending entirely upon what you prioritize. Both of you are prioritizing damage, and higher level spells. These are not the be-all, end-all of the game, else (sub)classes like the Eldritch Knight would not exist.   Fighter 2: Action Surge is a good option for spellcasters who want to cast multiple spells/turn. The damage loss from losing 1 level of spells is offset by the extra actions (spellcasting, attack, or other actions as desired). Action surge is also useful for strikers, granting increased nova potential. Warlock 1: Short rest Hex is of particular interest to striker characters, esp. with its 1hr long duration. Delaying extra attacks by 1 level is well worth the 1d6 damage increase vs a single target. A 5/1 Fighter/Warlock deals up to 4d6 more damage than a Fighter 6 (5d6 if TWF), and can easily make their concentration checks thanks to their constitution save proficiency and good CON score. Sure, losing out on 4 Attacks at L20 hurts, but L20 is ~1% of the characters career, meanwhile dealing  a maximum of 3d6 additional damage (6d6 Action Surge) more than makes up for the loss of one attack - GWM or Sharpshooter notwithstanding. Especially when amoratized over their entire career. Warlock 3: Snag cantrips from other classes; snag utility invocations; best ritual caster in the game; an excellent choice for a bard, paladin, or sorcerer.  Cleric 1: Useful spells, only method to gain Heavy Armor Proficiency via multiclassing (after L1). I could go on, but these are a few examples where even a small level-dip (at or before L6) is of considerable benefit.   Not everyone prioritizes game elements the same way. It is unwise to lord ones subjective viewpoint as fact - especially when it fails to account for all variables, and focuses on one highly specific area to the exclusion of all others. Doing so, only invites someone to poke holes in your logic, and find your conclusions wanting.   Those people who prioritize reliable damage or high level abilities may achieve better results by singleclassing. Those who prioritize nova damage, versatility, or other factors may achieve better results by multiclassing.    An eldritch knight/Wizard fights very differently than a pure eldritch knight or wizard. If you try to build them to fulfill the same archetype/purpose - you will understandably achieve different results showing one (or another) build as being superior in that role. When multiclassing (or even singleclassing), you should play to your builds strengths - both in terms of mechanical choices, as well as tactical (in-game) choices.
#5 Rancid_Rogue Sep 15, 2014 11:45:10	Sword and board Fighter-6 wanting to improve his action economy with a two-level dip in Rogue?   Wizard in a horde-heavy campaign without a lot of sticky teammates wanting to improve his survivability with a single level in Cleric or Fighter?   Dexterity Paladin-8 looking at what the future holds then glancing at Ranger and OMG dat striker die?   I think this edition has an excellent multiclassing balance. It's very rarely better, but it has its niches.
#6 Kalani Sep 15, 2014 12:12:28	Rancid_Rogue wrote:
#7 RCanine Sep 16, 2014 0:00:15	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#8 Jell_Moo Sep 16, 2014 4:56:36	I think there are a few caveats to be mentioned. Namely that the *what* is very important as well. Some classes are just innately more multiclass friendly than others, and can offer either really imporant survivability bumps (which is great at low level play since this edition is more dangerous than other recent ones) or can actually give you a great ability that diminishes the issue the OP mentioned.   Two levels of Druid, for example, are just brutal at low to mid level. Even if this slows down your acquisition of power (whether through a second attack at 5th or 3rd level spells), you are still well ahead of the power curve. Two levels of Warlock gives you a scaleable at will attack that does nice damage/multiattacks and can potentially have a cute effect.
#9 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 16, 2014 5:16:16	RCanine wrote:
#10 Sorxores Sep 16, 2014 6:14:17	any tank type character will benefit greatly from 3 level in bear totem barbarian by gaining d12HP, resistance to all damage (except psychic)   a sorcerer got no reason to go past 18 and is greatly encourage to take 2 level in a different full caster: wizard to gain ritual casting and the specialization bonus (evocation give you a free to use improved carefull casting metamagic on your evocation, necromancer give you back HP whenever you kill a target with your spells (even if not necromantic spells) Abjuration give you a protective bubble when you cast a abjusration spell or the most powerfull one IMHO portent: you know 2 dice per day. For the sorcerer I might wait at level 6 to multiclass. The wizard path also allow you to exchange all your level 1 spell for higher level spell, since you can transcribe all spell level 1 in your spellbook and as long as you take no-DC spell level 1 (sleep, detect magic, alarm, find familiar, identify, shield, mage armor, comprehend language, longstrider, expeditious retreat, jump etc...) you only need 13 intellect   Cleric will give you some healing spell, access to some of the most powerful cantrip : Guidance/Resistance. plus domain spell and 1 domain bonus. If you take sedonc level, you even gain a utility with your channel divinity, but channel divinity is often closely related to wisdom. - Knowledge give you expertise in 2 knowledge skill and 2 language - Life give you better healing specialy since your Wisdom will probably be 13, maybe 14, and access to heavy armor if you really want it  and spend point in your strenght or be slowed down - Nature: 1 druid cantrip and 1 skill between Animal handling, Nature or survival also heavy armor. You don't really need druid cantrip since you already got 3 cleric cantrip) - Trickery: give advantage to the rogue before he go ahead to scout can be very usefull... or you can cast invisibility as a spell lvl 2 The other domain give you an ability that you can use 1 per day (unless you invest in your wisdom) - light: give disavantage to one attack -Tempest:  retaliate 2d8 lightning/thunder damage Dex save. This is not a spell, so do not benefit from a lightning dragon ancestry - War give you an extra attack (not action)     Bard give you bardic inspiration which let you give +1d6 to any d20 roll an ally do. and share the same main stats as your sorcerer: Charisma. The second level (jack of all trade and song of rest) can be interesting, but I would prefer 1 bard/1cleric/18 sorcerer over 2bard/18 sorcerer.   Druid: In my opinion the weakest multiclass option for a 2 level dip: access to cantrip similar to the cleric list. druidic language, wild shape can be interesting giving you flexibility without using your limited spell slots. For circle, as oddly as it seems, I would take the moon circle to improve the wildshape abilities, since circle of land give you an extra cantrip, and the ability to recover 1 spell level 1 on a short rest.
(Reply to #8) Rancid_Rogue	Jell_Moo wrote:
#12 RCanine Sep 16, 2014 8:06:21	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
(Reply to #11) Jell_Moo	Rancid_Rogue wrote:
#14 Nachturnus Sep 16, 2014 8:38:34	Rancid_Rogue wrote:
#15 Kalani Sep 16, 2014 8:43:44	General Rules to remember ​Cantrips scale with character level. Spells scale with spell slot. Class features scale with class level. Eldritch blast is a cantrip. Therefore it scales with character level.   On a related note:   While Mike Mearls has evaded the question - logic dictates that warlock invocations require levels in the warlock class. This is for several reasons: Like Maneuvers, and Elemental Disciplines - Invocations are warlock class features, as they are listed within the class description. Like Invocations, Elemental Disciplines have level requirements. Elemental Disciplines require levels in the monk class. Therefore, logic dictates that Invocations require levels in the warlock class, despite ambiguous wording.
#16 Nachturnus Sep 16, 2014 9:01:36	Kalani wrote:
#17 Kalani Sep 16, 2014 9:23:49	Nachturnus wrote:
#18 Nachturnus Sep 16, 2014 10:05:00	Kalani wrote:
#19 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 16, 2014 10:16:55	RCanine wrote:
#20 Kalani Sep 16, 2014 10:44:57	Most people seem to forget a very important rule when it comes to making rulings:   If the wording of X is ambiguous and can be interpreted two (or more) ways - look for a similar feature, rule, or mechanic with more clearly defined rules in order to guide your ruling. This ruling applies when adjudicating any RPG, CCG or similar game with variable rulesets.   Monk Disciplines are the feature/rule/mechanic with the most similarity to Warlock Invocations Both are listed within the class section of their parent class. Both have features selectable from a list (disciplines and invocations respectively) Both have features which have level requirements. Save for the last factor - Fighter Maneuvers are a close match as well, but seeing as Fighter Maneuvers lack level requirements, they offer no help in adjudicating a ruling.    This is Logic 101.... Without an official FAQ or Errata clarifying the issue, this is the most logical ruling to make. Those who rule that Invocations are based off character level are using flawed logic, which I will demonstrate below.   Invocations are thematically similar to Spells.  Spells have spell slot requirements. Spell slots and Invocations have level requirements. Spell Slots are granted based on spellcaster level (not to be confused with class or character level). Cantrips are Spells which scale with character level. Therefore, Invocations with level requirements use character level. There is no logical path between Invocations and Cantrips other than the tenuous use of the word "level". If we apply this logic fairly and consistently, then all rules which use the word "level" and lack the phrase "levels in this class" are likewise based on character level. By this logic, a Warlock 19 who takes a level of Fighter, gains the benefit of the Fighters 20th level class feature - because it uses the word "level", which we have defined to mean character level.    As this is clearly not the case, it proves that there is an error in our logic, and therefore our conclusion.   As this logical error occurs once you introduce class features to the equation, we must include them in order to remove errors in logic.   Invocations are thematically similar to Spells. Invocations are also similar to Monk Disciplines, and Fighter Maneuvers. Monk Disciplines and Fighter Maneuvers are clearly delineated as class features. Warlock Invocations are ambiguous. Invocations, and Elemental Disciplines have level requirements. Spells have spell slot requirements.  Invocations do not have spell slot requirements, therefore Spells (but not cantrips) are excluded. Fighter Maneuvers do not have level requirements and are excluded. Cantrips are spells which scale with character level. Elemental Disciplines are based on class level. Disciplines and Invocations are listed in the class description. Spells and Cantrips are listed in the Spell Section. Therefore, Cantrips are excluded. Spells have now been excluded twice reinforcing the previous logic. Invocations are most similar to Disciplines. Therefore, logic dictates Invocations with level requirements are based on class level. Supporting Factors Most class features use the word "level" and not the phrase "levels in this class".  Class features which use the phrase "levels in this class" (or similar phraseology) are the exception, not the rule. All class features are listed within the class description of their respective class. Invocations are listed within the warlock class description. None of these factors contradicts our conclusion, and instead reinforces it.
#21 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 16, 2014 11:20:56	Kalani wrote:
#22 Polaris Sep 16, 2014 12:30:06	Rancid_Rogue wrote:
(Reply to #14) Rancid_Rogue	Nachturnus wrote:
(Reply to #23) Tydanosaurus	Rancid_Rogue wrote:
#25 Squad Sep 16, 2014 16:35:36	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#26 Seraphex Sep 16, 2014 17:03:35	While ot couldve been phrased better, I think this rant neatly outlines two problems with MCing:   - Anything more than a 1-4 level dip into a single class can quickly become detrimental to your power. - The difference between level 4 and 5 is disproportionately HUGE. A point could be made for early rogue mcing, since the SA and cunning action could offset the loss of an extra attack in terms of sustained damage. A bit.   Sure, its worth the dip to rogue 3 if you want some action economy, for instance... But you do not want to do this pre5, in general. Honestly, Mwao tends to make solid points and its no different here.  I dont see why people are getting defensive about it. This is also clearly in combat efficiency, which will be the bulk of any dnd game, rules wise. MCing is in a better spot than before, doesnt make it a good spot... 10/10 or 5/5/5/5 splits, or other true multiclassing is generally a bad thing. Dipping post level 5 is the only real sensible way to go it seems.
#27 Illithidbix Sep 16, 2014 18:17:01	Yep, multiclassing is going for diversity over power.   Given the difficulty at trying to balance the relative power of 12 classes with 2-3 (or 7!) subclasses each... from prelimary games and reading, it seems they've done a pretty good job. An entirely modular multiclass system adds even more layers of complexity.   So I for one am pretty happy that multiclassing mostly isn't the secret path to power that is obfuscated from newer players. So it's working as intended. And it's also why it's got a very large OPTIONAL RULES, ASK YOUR DM over it. (which in my school of gaming, applies to everything, but they've gone out of their way with MC and it's 3E related headaches)   As it is; many games that I've played in *haven't* focused around encounter after encounter of combat. They've often been a more "fantasy espionage" feel, and in these sorts of campaigns multiclassing might well excel.
#28 wills2009 Sep 16, 2014 18:11:32	Tydanosaurus wrote:
#29 Whir Sep 16, 2014 18:15:18	But is a Wlk2/Wiz18 more powerful than a Wiz20?
#30 wills2009 Sep 16, 2014 18:18:05	Whir wrote:
#31 RCanine Sep 16, 2014 21:06:39	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#32 Mistwell Sep 16, 2014 22:20:04	Lore Bards go from an AC of 14 or 15, to an AC of 20, with a single level of Cleric.  You really telling me a +5 or +6 boost to AC (plus Guidance, and Bless, and no loss of caster slots) is a suboptimal choice?
#33 2Chlorobutanal Sep 16, 2014 23:30:08	It well could be, as you won't have your nth level Bard spells at level (2n-1), but rather at level (2n).  You may get the spell slots on pace, but you won't have confusion or compulsion at level 7, you won't have Magical Secrets until levels 11, 15, and 19, etc.   From a top-down view at level 20, it may not seem suboptimal to have that one Cleric level, but depending on when the PC multi-classes, he or she could spend a good portion of an adventuring career being effectively one spell level lower than an expected "primary caster."
#34 Direach Sep 17, 2014 4:45:15	This is an interesting discussion. I had in mind a two-weapon fighting character, one level in Fighter and the rest in Rogue, primarily to get the ability modifier to off-hand attacks, but now I'm not sure that's a good idea. Is that off-hand damage boost (and medium armour) worth being one level behind in class progression for the rest of the game? Is Action Surge too good to pass up, putting me even further behind? Hmmm...
(Reply to #15) Sorxores	Kalani wrote:
#36 wills2009 Sep 17, 2014 5:13:12	Direach wrote:
#37 Direach Sep 17, 2014 6:08:47	Yeah, it seemed like it was a bit easier of martial classes. Still worth giving more consideration to, I think. Two-weapon fighting is definitely not as advantageous to rogues as it used to be.
#38 Keendk Sep 17, 2014 6:26:45	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#39 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 17, 2014 8:01:00	Direach wrote:
#40 BillyCorman Sep 17, 2014 8:29:19	Keendk wrote:
#41 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 17, 2014 9:06:30	Mistwell wrote:
#42 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 17, 2014 9:13:02	BillyCorman wrote:
(Reply to #33) Tydanosaurus	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#44 BillyCorman Sep 17, 2014 11:35:44	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
(Reply to #44) bid	BillyCorman wrote:
#46 BillyCorman Sep 17, 2014 12:48:28	bid wrote:
#47 Nachturnus Sep 17, 2014 12:54:13	bid wrote:
(Reply to #46) Mommy_was_an_Orc	BillyCorman wrote:
#49 BillyCorman Sep 17, 2014 15:11:28	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#50 Yunru Sep 17, 2014 15:22:48	To compare a ranged Fighter doesn't get 4(d8+Dex) until level 20 without feats. Dualing wielding a melee Fighter can get 4 attacks per turn as soon as 11 though, so it's also not OP.