Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 CarlderRitter Dec 27, 2014 11:29:03	If I play a variant human fighter- great weapon fighter- with polearm master feat.  I then take 3 levels in ranger for colosus slayer, and hunter's mark.   At level 4,  I would be swinging for 1d10 + 1d8 + 1d6 + str, and 1d4 + 1d8 + 1d6 + str. (of course the 1d8 would be on damaged targets only)   and rerolling the 1's and 2's on the 1d10 and 1d4?   Then I can go on to continue leveling in Fighter.
#2 guachi Dec 27, 2014 15:44:52	I believe colossus slayer only works once per turn like sneak attack. Otherwise I think you are correct as hunters mark works on every attack.
(Reply to #2) CarlderRitter	guachi wrote:
#4 Kithas48 Dec 27, 2014 18:02:24	great weapon master is pretty awesome, esp with polearm master, the -5 +10 is always on average more damage, what fighter subclass are you looking at in fighter?
(Reply to #4) Coredump00	Kithas48 wrote:
#6 JRutterbush Dec 27, 2014 20:24:45	CarlderRitter wrote:
(Reply to #5) Kithas48	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #7) Coredump00	Kithas48 wrote:
(Reply to #8) Kithas48	Coredump00 wrote:
#10 BrunsenBrurner Dec 28, 2014 0:45:04	Assuming the average damage is 8.5, a critical is 14, a miss is 0, and discounting GWF's rerolls, here's the math we're looking at assuming you hit on a 10 without Great Weapon Master   (.50 * 8.5) + (.45 * 0) + (.05 * 14) = 4.95 average damage per swing   Great Weapon Master means average damage becomes 18.5, and a critical becomes 24, but we now only hit on a 15.   (.25 * 18.5) + (.70 * 0) + (.05 * 24) = 5.825 damage per swing.   With this level of damage, using Great Weapon Master ends up being superior until you need a 12(17 with GWM) to hit. If you have advantage, Great Weapon Master is better until you need a 13(18) to hit. These numbers drop slightly as your non-GWM damage increases, and rise if it decreases. If I've screwed up the math anywhere, please let me know.
(Reply to #9) Coredump00	Kithas48 wrote:
#12 Macv12 Dec 28, 2014 1:04:03	Say you hit on an 11 or better, for an average of 10 damage (which is fairly close to 1d10+4 STR anyway). This means average damage per hit is 10, x50% because only half of your swings will get that damage across, for an average of 5 damage per attack.   With GWM, you now hit on a 16 or more (25%), hence a 25% reduction in overall accuracy, but a 50% drop relative to your previous actual accuracy. You now do 20 damage per hit, which is double. So take 20 damage X 25% accuracy = 5 damage per attack. Identical.   So, same character, but needs a 16 or higher to hit (25% accuracy). 10 x 25% = 2.5 damage per hit. Add GWF, and you're only hitting in a 20 (5%, which is 1/5 as accurate as before), but for 20 damage. 20 x 5% = 1 damage per hit. So you definitely don't want to use it in that case. (Criticals can be pretty much ignored because they happen at a 1/20 rate regardless of accuracy).   Basically, you have to know your hit rate and average damage to know if GWM will benefit you. If the relative drop in your accuracy (i.e. where going from 50% to 25% is 1/2 times as accurate) is less than the relative damage boost, it's worth it. This is true most of the time. But you probably don't want to be pulling this out against a Terrasque or something.
(Reply to #10) Coredump00	BrunsenBrurner wrote:
#14 Yunru Dec 28, 2014 3:27:36	The net difference to accuracy will always be -.25, except in cases where the loss in accuracy ceases to make a difference (once you only hit on a 20 you can't go lower). But for DPR it's more complicated.  Sharpshooter actually adds: 10X-0.25Y-2.5, where X is your original chance to hit, and Y is your original damage on a hit.
(Reply to #13) Kithas48	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #15) EzechielDantan	Kithas48 wrote:
#17 Kithas48 Dec 28, 2014 11:19:21	that seems to make sense, the math I had templated looks different (taking the %chance to reroll and multiplying that by the chance to rollach number to get the chance to roll each number total) So the averages for a d10 and a d4 would be 6.3 and 3 respectively.   How would you do the math for an attack using savage attacker? (Roll damage twice, take the better) I'd assume a 50% chance to get a better roll on the second die not sure where to go from there especially if factoring in GWF rerolls too.
#18 Yunru Dec 28, 2014 11:51:33	Assuming Savage is the same for damage as Advantage is for accuracy: 1d4 averages 3.125 1d6 averages 4.472(22222...) 1d8 averages 5.8125 1d10 averages 7.15   This I'm not so sure of, but with GWF: 1d4 averages 3.5 1d6 averages 4.9907407(407407...) 1d8 averages 6.40625 1d10 averages 7.796
#19 OnlyNerdStuff Dec 28, 2014 12:05:43	The biggest downside here, of course, is that you wouldn't pick up your 2nd attack until level 8, nor would you get your 2nd feat, ostensibly the GWM for the extra +10 damage, until level 7.   While a straight fighter already has that 2nd feat, again assuming the GWM for +10, at level 4 (!) and a second attack by level 5.   So, for a three level dip in ranger to pick up +1d6 per hit and +1d8 per round, you give up a a 2d6 greatsword strike every round and +10 per hit (when the odds are favorable, ymmv, consider all the math above, etc).   The ranger may be more veratile or even more fun for some folks, but in straight damage, the fighter may have the edge.   By level 8 it may be closer, but the fighter gets ANOTHER attack at level 11.  Since you were interested in "early levels" specifically, it still seems like that path might come up short...
(Reply to #14) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #18) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #21) Kithas48	Coredump00 wrote:
#23 Coredump00 Dec 28, 2014 13:24:57	Ah, gotcha.... nevermind....     Hmmmm.....  This depends a bit on how you interpret the feats interacting, and how you define 'damage dice'.   If you need to roll a D10, with Savage, you get to roll 2 dice.  Do you reroll any 1-2 on either die? Or only if that die is used for damage....??  I can see it being interpreted either way....
(Reply to #23) OnlyNerdStuff	Coredump00 wrote:
#25 Yunru Dec 28, 2014 13:44:00	So worked savage AND GWF out properly (I was derping earlier): 1d4 averages 3.3125 1d6 averages 4.7222(222...) 1d8 averages 6.109375 1d10 averages 7.48
#26 Coredump00 Dec 28, 2014 13:49:02	That is an issue, but not what I was referring to.   When you roll the 2 dice for Savage... are they *both* considered damage dice, or is rolling two dice just the process to find the single damage die.  IOW is rolling 2 dice more of a 'black box' or 'subroutine'.   One way to look at it is Halberd has One D10 for a damage die.... With Savage you get to roll 2 dice, take the highest one, and that is your one damage die.   Or you may consider *both* of the dice as damage dice, but you can only use one of them.     I think the first method is more 'correct', but I would likely play it the second way....
(Reply to #25) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
#28 Yunru Dec 28, 2014 14:06:32	Both are damage dice, they can't be anything else. Either they're seperate damage dice of which thr highest is taken (which I used), or I guess they could be considered the same damage dice in which case a 1 or 2 one either could affect both.
(Reply to #23) EzechielDantan	Coredump00 wrote:
#30 Yunru Dec 28, 2014 14:16:38	I just worked out the possibilities, summed them and then divided by the number of possibilities.
#31 Coredump00 Dec 28, 2014 14:27:58	Hmmmm.... re-reading the rules....   The wording is different than with Advantage, I think it *is* clear that every time you roll they would be 'damage dice', so the GWF would trigger each time.   But... the Savage feat specifies *weapon* damage dice, and not attack damage dice.... so I would only let Savage effect the D10 or 2d6 or whatever for the weapon; not things like Smite or Sneak attack.
(Reply to #31) EzechielDantan	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #31) OnlyNerdStuff	Coredump00 wrote:
#34 Kithas48 Dec 29, 2014 13:56:31	sweet thanks guys! one last thing as im not sure if my math on this is right, with gwf the to hit breaking point (when you should not use it) would be: (+3str, +3 prof, +1 wpn,) interestingly enough there are 2 breaking points for each die, hwf+hwm is always better 19-20, but it is better on a 10 or less to hit for a d10 and a 12 or less to hit on the d4 dont know the math on adv at all :P
#35 Coredump00 Dec 29, 2014 22:29:30	I may be missing something, but I am assuming that is a type and you mean Gwf and Gwm?   But I am not sure where the D4 comes from? Are you also curious about Polearm Master?     I can do the calcs for you, even with advantage, but I need to know for sure the scenario you are asking about.
#36 UngeheuerLich Dec 30, 2014 2:38:35	Kithas48 wrote:
#37 CarlderRitter Dec 30, 2014 13:02:34	You guys are awesome.  Thanks for all the number crunching!       I will spend more time re-reading tonight, but my take away is that diping 3 levels in ranger is not the best way to maximize damage for a fighter based polearm master.  Further (if my skimming was enough)  2 handed sword is the ideal weapon for a fighter, who's main concern is DPR.   Cheers!   Carl
(Reply to #4) CarlderRitter	Kithas48 wrote:
#39 Yunru Dec 30, 2014 13:13:04	Oh that's easy. Be an Eldritch Knight, then be a true Eldritch Knight by dipping three levels in Warlock. Why? For Devil's Sight (and Darkness) of course. Now you have Advantage to outwiegh that nasty -5. Alternatively is the Fighter 11/Oathbreaker Paladin 9. +Cha at Paladin 7, Animate Dead at 9, not to mention the smites.
(Reply to #39) CarlderRitter	Yunru wrote:
#41 Yunru Dec 31, 2014 2:48:16	In the case of dipping Warlock: In case you run out of spell slots to cast Darkness. Honestly though, I'd strongly consider Paladin 9 then either Wizard 6 or Fighter 11. So after 20 levels it'd be Oathbreaker 9/Fighter 11, with three attacks, undead minions and +cha to attack damage for you and undead. Or Paladin 9/Wizard 6/Warlock 5, with 2 attacks (3 with Haste), +cha to you and undead's damage, +prof to your undead's damage and the ability to cast Haste twice per rest.
(Reply to #40) EzechielDantan	CarlderRitter wrote:
(Reply to #42) CarlderRitter	EzechielDantan wrote:
#44 Coredump00 Dec 31, 2014 10:00:30	Not quite, it lets a Rogue Sneak Attack.... but doesn't give advantage.   While the Warlock Darksight/Darkness combo is very powerful.... it means your allies will all be fighting in the dark.    Now, some people play that you can tell where everyone is, even in complete darkness... *and* can tell friend from foe in complete darkness.  But if you don't play that way... the 'combo' is not very usable.
#45 Yunru Dec 31, 2014 10:09:48	Core is very argumentative, best take what he says with a pinch of salt. A large pinch. Okay all the salt.   For instance: Darkness does give your allies a disadvantage, Disadvantage. owever it also means your enemies can't see them, granting Advantage. The two cancel. It also doesn't affect your allies if you're a ranged build.   And since you wanted max DPR here's the king of sustainable DPR: Fighter 7/Warlock 3/Fighter 11/Rogue 6. Or if you want to delay a slight bit of damage for a level, I'd advise: Fighter 6/Sorcerer 1/Warlock 3/Fighter 11/Rogue 5.   You use a Hand Crossbow, Crossbow Expert (start Variant Human to get this early), Sharpshooter, Darkness and Devil's Sight.
#46 Coredump00 Dec 31, 2014 11:25:44	I would appreciate it if you could refrain from being insulting.  If you think my statement is in error, please address what I said, and not resort to Ad Hominem attacks on me.     I never said anything about Adv/Disadv... that seems more like a Red Herring that you added in.   I simply stated that some people believe you will 'know' where everyone is, even in complete darkness, even at range, and even tell apart friend from foe.   Further, if you *don't* play that way... it makes this 'combo' pretty ally unfriendly.   Instead of casting aspersions.....perhaps you could actually tell me where I am wrong?
#47 Yunru Dec 31, 2014 11:31:15	Not in this thread you didn't.
#48 Coredump00 Dec 31, 2014 19:22:42	.... still waiting for you to justify your insults.  And to point out what I said that needs a 'large pinch of salt'.....
#49 Ghost_Gallus Dec 31, 2014 19:46:42	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #49) Coredump00	Ghost_Gallus wrote:
#51 Yunru Jan 01, 2015 8:36:19	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #51) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
#53 Yunru Jan 01, 2015 15:55:52	Oh really? So now not only do you repeat questions that you already have answers to, everyone else has to repeat those answers to appease you? Well sorry, you can go unappeased. I was quoting Plaguescared, but of course you all ready knew this. . And then there's your hillarious claim that it's "very ally-unfriendly". Even if DMs ignore the rules, there's these things called "ranged attacks", you may want to look into them.
(Reply to #53) Reius	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #53) EzechielDantan	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #53) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
#57 Yunru Jan 02, 2015 1:39:28	Hmm you say you could have no idea I was quoting plague? So you're just forgetful? Because that's the only way you'd be able to have no idea of his contribution to the last thread you derailed with this. . Also I'd like to see a dungeon where staying 15ft away is hard. You keep asking for proof, now back up what you say. . @Ezechiel: The build in question uses Sharpshooter's -5/+10, Darkness is way more efficient than Hex.
(Reply to #57) EzechielDantan	Yunru wrote:
#59 Yunru Jan 02, 2015 7:26:39	"Arrows flying forth from the inky black to strike down the enemy with precision shots" isn't setting a great scene to you? It's basically what if Legolas was Batman.
(Reply to #57) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #59) Coredump00	Yunru wrote:
#62 Yunru Jan 03, 2015 3:37:59	I'm sorry that you cannot dispute that simple tactics counter all your claims and you have been unable to backup your statement that staying 15ft away from allies is mostly impossible. But now your counter-points are neither points nor sensical.
#63 Coredump00 Jan 03, 2015 15:04:34	Dude, get over yourself. You make claims you never support, you 'quote' rules you make up,  you lie about things I have said, and you try an retroactively change what you were talking about.   I never said it was "mostly impossible", I said it was "ally-unfriendly".  This thread was about a GWF melee build, you brought up the combo in regards to a melee build, and it will likely mean any other melee allies will also be operating in complete darkness.  I think most people would find being forced to operate in complete darkness a hinderance... hence the 'ally-unfriendly"   Now you have decided it is meant for a ranged attack.... which means everyone else has to be at least 20' away from you or they are operating in complete darkness.   Nowhere did I say this was 'mostly impossible', but it does create problems; especially if Darkness is cast before they get to move away.   And yes, there will be some instances when it will be mostly impossible, like a fight in a hallway, or a small or medium sized room.
#64 Yunru Jan 03, 2015 15:13:58	Now your just showing you don't even read the thread properly. The OP stated he was just looking for a high DPR build. We've moved on from GWF. Of course, you wouldn't notice that in your attempts to jump at any perceived weakness in an attempt to ignore your own argument's weak spots.
#65 Coredump00 Jan 03, 2015 15:50:55	Dude, you do realize that we can actually still read what was written....  its objectively easy to tell when you are making things up.   First, there is is actual request   CarlderRitter wrote:
(Reply to #45) Yunru	Coredump00 wrote:
#67 Yunru Jan 07, 2015 9:11:59	One to consider (if OP is even reading the thread still), is Fighter 1/Oathbreaker 7/Pact of Blade Fey Warlock 13. Without considering the -5/+10 you do: 2 attacks, XdY+Dex+Cha+1d6 (hex) at level 8, at level 15 you can use Greater Invisibility instead of Hex putting you at XdY+Dex+Cha with Advantage (so here you would use -5/10), and at level 20 you can add your Cha again.
#68 ORC_Animus Jan 07, 2015 9:34:16	I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.