Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 LasteEnygma Aug 09, 2015 15:11:25	Hey all over the past few months I've had friends at my table discouraged over the fact that due to not being a "finesse" weapon, the dexterious fighter can't run a Longsword off of Dex or an Assassin can't use a Sickle in the same fashion. Without making it look like a legal document this is what I proposed as a Feat.   Weapon Finesse (req 13 Dex): a character may treat a non Two-Handed or Heavy weapon using the "Finesse" property. Using a weapon in the Versatile manner negates this effect.   The only thing I can see possible for abuse is a shielded rogue (level 1 dip) using the bonus attack from Polearm Master for a 2nd shot at Sneak Attack without dual wielding or investing in a multiclassed Extra Attack.   Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated!
#2 daspian Aug 09, 2015 15:39:56	idk about mechanics view, nor do i really wanna open up that whole can of worms about swords and real-life comparison, but i always saw longswords as not being finesse weapons due to their weight and well..length, i think it was also partially due to balancing issues maybe on WOTC's part, a 1d8/10 weapon that is finesse and versatile is probably to much. that's probably why the rapier is 1d8 but only finesse   as for the sickle, i did a different version for a PC who wanted to be a ninja... he wanted a Kusari-gama so i just copied the sickle, but then added a chain to it and said sure it can be finesse and reach.     as for your feat, the only thing i'd say is to actually maybe add more "umpfh" to it? cause 5e seems to put alot more emphasis on how powerful feats are, especially considering you have to give up abil boosts in exchange for it, so maybe add some extra stuff to it?   so maybe something like this   Finesse Mastery Prerequiisite: Dexterity 13 or higher   You may treat any non Two-Handed or Heavy Weapon as if it had the Finesse Property as well. However using a weapon in the versatile manner negates this effect. Increase your Dexterity Score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
#3 LasteEnygma Aug 09, 2015 15:51:01	I didn't even to take into account feat power.  The bonus to Dex looks like a very welcomed addition.   Yeah I've had a player wanting to make a robed samurai, wearing light to no armor. The katana would be the Longsword equivalent according to the DMG. The heavy armored samurai is probably more "realistic", but with the inspirations of shows, movies and media I want to say yes to my players, before I say NO!
#4 KenBabaganoosh Aug 09, 2015 16:18:12	Instead of just giving a weapon the finesse property I would just say that you can use Dexterity in place of Strength for attack and damage rolls. This wording would stop a Rogue from being able to Sneak Attack with something like a warhammer.
#5 LasteEnygma Aug 09, 2015 17:10:02	Thats not a bad idea either. I might roll with replacing Str and Dex like you've said. I think that's what I'll do. By all means if anyone has further opinions or suggestions, they're welcome. To avoid confusion, I'll tip the hat to "Melee Training" from 4e as a name, but limit it to Dex only. Thank you all!
#6 TenaciousJ Aug 09, 2015 18:14:19	I've been going with mithral weapons that aren't heavy weapons gain the finesse quality.  I like a finesse longsword as treasure better than as a feat.
#7 crusadereaver Aug 09, 2015 19:12:28	People tend to stick with a specific weapon, if you love the long sword your character except in rare situations will alwys use a longsword. So why not make the feat simple but not so broad.   Finesse weilding: (req. dex 13) Choose one weapon that does not have that finesse property. In the hands of this character that weapon can now be wielded as if it had finesse.   The big problem with finesse weapons to me is that the feat for them, Defensive Duelist, is rather situational and underwhelming when compared to the other feats that effect weapons and styles. But that could be me.
(Reply to #7) Saeviomagy	crusadereaver wrote:
#9 KenBabaganoosh Aug 09, 2015 20:03:22	Saeviomagy wrote:
#10 mellored Aug 09, 2015 20:11:25	katana: 1d8 two handed finess. slashing assassins sickle: 1d6 light, finess. slashing
#11 Geistrin Aug 09, 2015 21:13:02	Quarterstaves were not meant to be finnesse.  They already have a lot of possibilities under Pole Arm Master.
#12 Incendavis Aug 09, 2015 22:41:59	I would love the ability to use a Longsword as a Finesse weapon. Because 1 it makes SENSE and 2 It fits the theme I have for my current character. You see for one swords unless they are something like the German Sweihander are almost ALWAYS less than 10 pounds. Swordfighters say that it does not take that much strength to wield a sword. it requires agility and the ability to move the thing quickly and accuratley.   Now Bows on the otherhand require a X pound draw weight to be drawn. Warbows usually had draw weights at least at 150 pounds. So personally if I could change swords to Dex and Bows to Str I would. Because its how it works IRL.   Plus I want my dex based character to be able to use a freaking longsword even though he has meh strength. Cause having a 1 in your strength means you can lift 15 pounds. Having a 1 in strength allows you to carry a freaking longsword! and 2 makes sure you can carry ANY sword (By this I mean the ones meant for showing off more than combat but still)!
#13 Godwyn Aug 09, 2015 23:26:45	Carry is far far far away from being able to use effectively.  Find out the most you can lift and barely walk around.  200-300 pounds probably.   Now, find something that weighs that much and try to swing it as a weapon (don't really it would amost certainly injure you).  Yes a longsword weighs less than 10 pounds.  That does not make it light to swing around, especially for long periods of time.  Compare that to modern fencing swords which have a max weight of 3 pounds, and are usually as light as possible.  The ability to move a sword quickly comes from being strong.  Pick two people.  The stronger one will be able to swing a sword faster.  F=MA, faster begets more damage.  This is always true.  The reason rapiers work as well as they do is that hurting/killing a person does not always take a lot of force.  It doesn't matter if the puncture to a heart is 1/8" diameter or a 2" slice, a person is probably just as dead either way.  Even then, more strength would let a person put more force behind a rapier stab.  I question who has used one for any length of time that says it does not take much strength.  Simple experiment for anyone that doesn't own a sword.  Get a bat, go to the batting cages for 15 minutes.  As a note, modern baseball bats tend to top out at under 2 pounds.  Thats the weight of a fencing sword, not a longsword/katana.   Pulling back a bow and aiming a bow are very different aspects for firing a bow.  I have adequate aim with a bow with a proper strength for me.  I can barely aim one with a draw at my limit as most of my concentration goes to just pulling the string back and holding it.  There is a reason older edition had dex to hit with bows, but str to damage depending on the str rating of the bow.  Bows probably should be allowed to use str for damage.  This edition opted for certain simplifications.  In most circumstances the trade off in complexity has been worth it.   Just becaue a weapon uses strength does not mean that one blindly bashes things with it no skill involved.  That dexterity gets added to damage at all is a mechanical convenience for balance.  PHB p. 176 Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.  None of those things equate to damage, really.  Agility perhaps lends itself to aim, but that modifies to hit, not damage.  PHB p. 175 Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force.  Wielding a weapon well is most certainly athletic, takes power, and physical force translates into damage.  You don't see scrawny fighters in any sport.  Martial training builds muscle.     On those notes, longswords and katanas are most certainly strength weapons, not finesse.  Just because it uses strength, don't assume it is skillless flailing about.     The sickle is probably not finessable because it is slashing damage.  Maybe for balance?  It would be the only non-piercing weapon with finesse that is a simple weapon.  So that could be intentional.  Whether giving it finesee is balanced or not, I have no idea.
#14 crimfan07 Aug 10, 2015 8:25:05	A number of these choices can be handled pretty easily, such as using a Rapier as essentially a super-balanced longer bladed sword. If you disallow Versatile use of it, fundamentally it's the same weapon.
#15 Geistrin Aug 10, 2015 9:29:50	crimfan07 wrote:
#16 Veleria Aug 10, 2015 9:55:28	What you say your party wants is easily handled by existing weapons Rapier and Short Sword. There is no need to penalize your players by charging a feat for it. it seems you agree with your players so rater than charge a feat simply take an existing weapon give it a new name and done. for the longsword take a rapier, change the damage type to slashing and done call it whatever you like. ofr the Kama take a short sword call it a kama and done. The weapons in 5e are intentionally a short list to allow a DM to tweak it a little. changing damage type doesnt really alter the effectivness of a weapon so as long as the other stats remain the same you will be fine.
#17 Captain_Kobold Aug 10, 2015 13:49:14	It can depend upon the style of game that the group wants to be in. Do you want tropes like feeble swordsmen who can still cut through tree trunks, or the bow or staff expert being the skinny elf or woman? Those appear in assorted types of fiction, and the concepts of many characters originate in fiction. Or do you prefer a grittier, more realistic style, with more of a nod to historical weapons and styles?   Neither is better, they both lie along a spectrum with a lot of middle ground, and as long as the group is on the same page, stick with what you all want.   I tend to lean a bit towards realism: I allow Strength to be used to hit for bows for (more powerful = faster, flatter and more accurate tradjectory and larger effective target area) as well as damage, and Sneak attack to be applied with any weapon for example, and I probably wouldn't allow longswords as a finesse weapon no matter how much the player likes Katana.   Other DMs might look at the player wanting the Unarmoured Samurai character and say: "Fine. Longswords are now a Monk weapon, and you can use your Wisdom to hit and damage." I might twitch a bit at this, but its that DM's call, and if it will increase the fun of the group, it is probably the right call.
#18 LasteEnygma Aug 10, 2015 14:19:40	Yeah we play with an assortment of players from the "powergamer" to "actor" and "thinker" and all of our inspirations come from different things. My main goal at the table with the feat was I guess to install some limitations of what can and can't be done for sake of abuse, but re-flavoring a weapon is probably the best bet. The "powergamer" of our group will take an inch and run a mile with it whenever we homebrew so I wanted to create an option for the "actor" in our group to be able to fulfill the image in his head, all "realism" aside without the Powergaming fella scheming on what he could do with it. I'll just rule that if the player is giving the table a valid and fair reason on using Dex for X weapon, a table exception can be made for the greater sake of player enjoyment.   Thank you all very much for taking the time to read through this and help me out. I'm one of those folks that misses the simple things sometimes while attempting to delve into the complex.
#19 Yunru Aug 10, 2015 16:26:53	If you're at the point where you have magic items, throw 'im a Sunblade.
#20 Xeviat-DM Aug 11, 2015 18:52:16	I've always wanted Dex to always be to hit and Str to always be damage, but I've also wanted to split Dex into Dexterity and Agility.   Since the only difference between the rapier and longsword is one has versatile and the other has finesse, I'd say it's fine for the longsword.