Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 GladiusLegis Jun 23, 2015 17:37:05	Spell-less Paladin   Figured I'd try my hand at a little homebrew. We already saw the Spell-less Ranger in the UA article, so figured I'd attempt a Spell-less Paladin using the same principles.   I previously posted this in the DM forum but figured I'd probably get more feedback here.   (REVISION NOTE: Lay on Hands is back to normal. The original draft had it doubled. That's not necessary with the Rally maneuver in play, plus the raw damage advantage over the Spellcasting Paladin this version has in early levels.)   Combat Superiority At 2nd level, you learn maneuvers that are fueled by special dice called superiority dice. Maneuvers. You learn two maneuvers of your choice, which are chosen from the list of maneuvers available to fighters with the Battle Master archetype. Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can use only one maneuver per attack. You learn one additional maneuver of your choice at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels. Each time you learn a new maneuver, you can also replace one maneuver you know with a different one. Superiority Dice. You have four superiority dice, which are d8s. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest. You gain another superiority die at 9th level and one more at 17th level. Saving Throws. Some of your maneuvers require your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows: Maneuver save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice)   Designer's note: Yes, this is ripped wholecloth from the Spell-less Ranger's version of Combat Superiority. It works.   Divine Smite Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you may roll one superiority die and add the value's worth of extra radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or fiend. You may spend a superiority die for this feature even if you had already spent one for a maneuver on the same attack. At 5th level, you may spend up to two superiority dice for this feature on one attack, adding the damage from all dice to the attack. At 9th level, you may spend up to three superiority dice for this feature on one attack in the same manner. At 13th level, the extra damage from this feature increases to 1d8 plus the superiority dice you spent. At 17th level, it increases to 2d8 plus the superiority dice you spent.   Designer's note: This reworking of Divine Smite to work with short-rest recharge superiority dice, as opposed to long-rest recharge spell slots, is meant to be roughly on par with a Paladin/Warlock multiclass' use of the Warlock slots to smite. Revised from first draft to be less overpowering at lower levels.   Relentless Starting at 17th level, when you roll initiative and have no superiority dice remaining, you regain 1 superiority die.   Designer's note: Yes, if you're keeping score, this essentially gives the Spell-less Paladin the equivalent of a 2nd-level smite always on hand. Probably making Relentless a tad more meaningful for this class than for the Battle Master Fighter or the Spell-less Ranger.   New Oath features Designer's note: As with the spell-less Ranger, new features at 3rd, 9th and 13th level will be needed to make up for the loss of spells. (Relentless takes care of 17th level.) Fortunately, we see an easy way to make these new features via the Oaths, which normally get Oath Spells at these levels. These new features may not be the exact same benefits as these Oath spells and will attempt to be less overtly magical, but they will be designed to serve similar purposes.   Oath of Devotion Devoted Bodyguard Starting at 3rd level, you may roll one superiority die as a reaction to move up to half your speed next to a creature who takes damage from an attack, spell, or trap. You subtract the result of your superiority die plus your Charisma modifier from the damage the creature took, and you take the same type of damage equal to the superiority die result plus your Charisma modifier. The damage you take from using this feature ignores resistance and immunity and cannot be reduced in any way. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.   Designer's note: Changed from first draft to use your superiority dice. Also makes the effect less powerful overall. In any event, makes up for the inability to cast Sanctuary or Protection from Evil and Good.   Aura of Hope Starting at 9th level, you and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you have advantage on death saving throws. If you are unconscious, you still retain this benefit, but you do not grant it to friendly creatures. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.   Designer's note: This is one aspect (arguably the most useful one) of Beacon of Hope.   Zealous Advance Starting at 13th level, your movement is unaffected by difficult terrain, and you cannot be restrained by spells and other magical effects.   Designer's note: A couple of Freedom of Movement's benefits as a constant effect. Latest revision removes paralysis immunity. Still doesn't include that spell's other yummy effects, like automatic grapple escapes and unimpeded attacks underwater.   Oath of the Ancients Thicket of Blades Starting at 3rd level, any creature you hit with a weapon attack must make a Wisdom saving throw against your Channel Divinity DC or have its speed reduced by half until the end of its next turn.   Designer's note: Obviously, a constant benefit can't be quite as strong as the effect Ensnaring Strike provides, but for an Oath geared toward party defense, cutting down enemy movement as an at-will ability is pretty solid and within the spirit flavor-wise. (Plus it was an excuse to reuse the Tome of Battle-inspired ability name.) Latest revision adds a saving throw.   Aura of Elemental Shielding Starting at 9th level, you may choose one damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder. You and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you gain resistance to the damage type you choose. You must be conscious to grant this benefit. You may change the damage type at the end of a long rest. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.   Designer's note: Yeah, this is better than the actual spell Protection from Energy. But considering the Ancients Paladin loses a lot of anti-horde tools from its lack of Oath Spells, it needs something rather strong.   Aura of Elemental Hazard Starting at 13th level, any creature you choose that starts a turn within 10 feet of you takes damage of the element you selected for Aura of Elemental Shielding equal to half your Charisma modifier (rounded down, minimum of 1). At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.   Designer's note: Replaced Uncanny Dodge with this, which is a little constant AoE damage at-will. (Fairly weak AoE damage, but didn't want it outdoing the Oathbreaker's Aura of Hate against a single target.)   Elder Champion As in the Player's Handbook, except replace the second and third bullet points (related to paladin spells) with the following: Enemy creatures have disadvantage on all saving throws against your maneuvers and Channel Divinity options.   Oath of Vengeance Vengeful Superiority Starting at 3rd level, your superiority dice turn into d10s. In addition, any dice you roll in relation to the Divine Smite class feature are d10s. At 11th level, your Improved Divine Smite class feature adds 1d10 extra radiant damage to all melee weapon attacks, instead of 1d8.   Designer's note: This damage boost is meant to reflect the Vengeance Paladin's damage advantage early on from Hunter's Mark.   Swift Avenger Starting at 9th level, your speed is increased by 10 feet. You may move freely through enemy spaces but may not end your turn in an enemy's space. Enemies have disadvantage on all opportunity attacks against you.   Designer's note: Just a little extra speed, along with a couple movement-related benefits mainly to somewhat make up for the loss of any teleporting from Oath Spells.   Avenger's Action Starting at 13th level, you may gain an additional action on your turn. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action. You may use this feature only once on each of your turns. You may use this feature a number of times equal to 2 plus your Charisma modifier. You regain all uses of this feature after you finish a long rest.   Designer's note: Toned this one down since the first draft; now it basically works out to a more powerful and versatile version of the War Cleric's Domain feature. Which it should, since it's a Lv. 13 ability vs. a Lv. 1.   Oathbreaker Smite of Darkness Starting at 3rd level, you may deal necrotic instead of radiant damage when you use your Divine Smite class feature. Furthermore, any necrotic damage you deal ignores resistance to necrotic damage. At 11th level, you may choose to deal necrotic instead of radiant damage with your Improved Divine Smite class feature. You must make this choice when you first gain the Improved Divine Smite feature, and the choice is permanent for as long as you remain an Oathbreaker.   Designer's note: A tricky one. Oathbreaker 1st-level spells kind of suck, but an option to smite with necrotic damage roughly matches up flavor-wise with Inflict Wounds. (Not that a traditional Spellcasting Oathbreaker uses that spell in place of a smite anyway.)   Curse Smite Starting at 9th level, when you use your Divine Smite to deal necrotic damage, you inflict the equivalent of the Bestow Curse spell on your target. If the target fails a Wisdom save equal to your Channel Divinity DC, you may afflict the target with any one of that spell's usual options, or another effect with DM approval. The curse you inflict lasts 10 minutes, and you do not need to concentrate to maintain the curse. A Remove Curse spell ends this effect, as it does for the Bestow Curse spell.   Designer's note: Pretty self-explanatory, a direct replacement for the Oathbreaker's 3rd-level Oath Spell. It's stronger to start (longer duration, no concentration) than a 3rd-level Bestow Curse, but the duration can't be improved in any way, so its ceiling isn't as high as the spell.   Call Animated Undead Starting at 13th level, when you are in an area with sufficient corpses or skeletal humanoid remains, you can release a call that raises up to eight skeletons or zombies, or any combination thereof that adds up to eight, within 1 mile of you to aid you. These skeletons or zombies approach you from their current location, and will fight alongside you, attacking any creatures that are hostile to you. They are friendly to you and your comrades, and you roll initiative for the called undead creatures as a group, which takes its own turns. The DM has the creatures’ statistics. After 1 hour, these undead creatures return to their previous locations and cease to be animated. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again in the same general area for 24 hours, since the same undead remains will not repeatedly heed your call.   Designer's note: I just ripped the Spell-less Ranger's Call Natural Allies feature and applied it to skeletons and zombies instead. It works as a limited, on-the-spot version of Animate Dead, which the Spellcasting Oathbreaker has as a 3rd-level Oath Spell.
#2 Lilika Jun 23, 2015 18:28:40	In my first reading my instincts tell me this seems a bit overpowering.  Lay on hands for double the normal pally is very strong imo.  Second trying to balance Smite with a pally/warlock multiclass is like getting all the goodies of multiclassing without any of the hidden drawbacks.  Edit-actually the smite is on par with the magic using Paladin, I had to run some numbers and its seems legit.   Personally, I would just keep the channel divinity for simplicity sake, no need to remake the wheel and its easier to balance then, maybe reflavor if needed.  I do see that the Oath of the Ancients would need some retooling though. I would also keep the other abilities for each oath for the same reason as above, the ranger remake didn't do as many changes as your suggesting.     Looking at the the Ranger example from UA, I would say that your replacements for spells seem far more powerful, that what the Ranger got.
#3 GladiusLegis Jun 23, 2015 18:31:31	Lilika wrote:
#4 Lilika Jun 23, 2015 18:47:25	The hunter was also losing healing spells, but they didn't get Lay on Hands to make up for the loss, they got some pretty bad out of combat healing.   I feel the spell slots lost are mostly made up for with combat superiority dice.  Trying to equal the power of a potential spell with a always on ability is pretty tricky.  With the way you have smite and superiority dice working I would say most of the specific abilities should be more flavor and less punch imo.
#5 GladiusLegis Jun 23, 2015 18:55:56	Ranger loses Cure Wounds and/or Goodberry. (And Poultices aren't that bad, they're actually comparable to a Cure Wounds at similar levels.)   But Paladin loses Aura of Vitality. Big difference, numbers-wise, compared to what the Ranger loses.
#6 Lilika Jun 23, 2015 18:57:02	If you want to compare a level 3 spell to level 1 spells sure. Rangers get Conjure Animals, probably a much better comparison in terms of overall power.
#7 GladiusLegis Jun 23, 2015 19:03:25	Yup, and the Spell-less Ranger gets a version of that. A gimp version, sure, but any summon is better than none.   The Spell-less Paladin would also lose Revivify (also 3rd-level), and thus the ability to bring back people from the dead. Between that and losing Aura of Vitality, I think double-power Lay on Hands is quite fair recompense.
#8 Lilika Jun 23, 2015 19:14:23	We could probably argue individual points about this homebrew all day, I think its too powerful, you think it isn't.  Probably best to see what other posters think instead of continuing this argument.  I will wait till a few more heads get involved.
#9 Mazzy Jun 24, 2015 0:05:21	I am a little confused what you are trying to accomplish with this. Spell-less ranger makes more sense as they have often shifted between martial and primal or divine, and many were upset that they could not play the martial ranger of 4e in 5e. But paladins have always been firmly divine. You removed some of their divine features (spellcasting, misc. oath features) but kept others (divine smite, auras). It seems rather capricious, like you are making s spell-less paladin just as a thought experiment and not as something that people are really clamoring to play or that really changes the nature of the class.   The existance of Divine Smite renders this all moot anyway as any paladin could easily play a spell-less paladin simply by burning all his spell slots on smites each day. And since your system kept Divine Smite around, it isn't even that different.    That said my one advice is that you should add a bonded mount as a feature at level 5 to compensate for the loss of Find Steed.
#10 FrogReaver Jun 24, 2015 0:38:35	I think it's best to look at expected daily values for all resources.  Level 3 and level 5 a great early game levels to look at.   So let's look at what a normal paladin can do at level 3.   1.  He can lay on hands heal for a total of 15.   2.  He gets 3 spells slots. 2A.  They can be used for 6d8 (avg 27) smite damage OR  2B.  They can be used for about 3d8 + 6 (avg 19.5)  healing      Your Paladin at level 3   1.  Can lay on hands heal for a total of 30.   In addition to that heal he can use 4 superiority dice per short or long rest (assuming 2 short rests per day) This comes out to 24d8 smite damage per day.   --------------------------------------------------------   Conclusion:  Your paladin just won the dpr race by a mile at level 3.  That's an insane amount of damage compared to the regular paladin at that level.  Also he gets comparable healing ability while doing that.  That's just crazy.
#11 FrogReaver Jun 24, 2015 0:48:53	Let's look at level 5   Regular paladin at level 5.   1.  Lay on hands heal for 25.   2.  4 lvl 1 spells and 2 level 2 spells 2A.  14d8 (63 avg) smite damage OR 2B.  4d8 + 8 + 4d8 + 4 = 12d8 + 12 (66 avg) healing     Your Paladin at level 5.   1.  Lay on hands heal for 50.   2.  4 superiority dice per short or long rest (about 12 per day total) 24d8 (108 avg) smite damage   *note your paladin can smite for 4d8 on 1 attack at level 5.  The regular paladin can only smite for 3d8 on 1 attack at level 5.  So not only do you get more daily damage.  You get an easier time front loading it as well.   ---------------------------------------------- Conclusion: That's 25 more healing and 42 more damage at level 5 for your paladin.  Your's is looking much better in the lower levels and that's without looking at your new subclass features.       I'm assuming you are still keeping the fighting styles in tact for your paladin as well?  I didn't really see mention of them 1 way or the other.
#12 FrogReaver Jun 24, 2015 1:10:10	Oath of Devotion Devoted Bodyguard Starting at 3rd level, you may use your reaction to move up to half your speed next to a creature who takes damage from an attack, spell, or trap. You reduce the total damage the creature took by half, and you take the other half of the total damage yourself. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.   Designer's note: We want to give a solid ally protection option here to make up for the loss of Sanctuary and Protection from Good and Evil. This is a nice flavorful benefit that still essentially uses your hit points as its "limited resource."   Aura of Hope Starting at 9th level, you and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you have advantage on death saving throws. If you are unconscious, you still retain this benefit, but you do not grant it to friendly creatures. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.   Designer's note: This is one aspect (arguably the most useful one) of Beacon of Hope.   Zealous Advance Starting at 13th level, your movement is unaffected by difficult terrain, and you cannot be paralyzed or restrained by spells and other magical effects.   Designer's note: This is basically half of Freedom of Movement as a constant effect.
#13 FrogReaver Jun 24, 2015 1:17:16	GladiusLegis wrote:
#14 FrogReaver Jun 24, 2015 1:25:35	GladiusLegis wrote:
#15 Logain08 Jun 24, 2015 8:06:46	Overall I very much like the design of these spell-less options, but I agree that some features might me a bit much, such as the Avenger's Actions. Like FrogReaver mentions, haste is a limited resource that competes with other extremely useful spells (such as Aura of Vitality and - if things go wrong - Revivify) and it requires concentration. So every vengeance paladin has to take these things into account before casting haste (not to mention another opportunity cost: loose concentration on haste and loose an entire turn doing nothing while you recover from the spell). The feature you give has none of these drawbacks. So maybe you need to find something to balance this out a bit more.   Also, with regards to Lay on Hands: in my experience playing a paladin, I mostly use my spell slots to fuel divine smite or to cast the occasional bless when the situation requires it. These paladins without spell already have a way of divine smiting through the use of superiority dice, which is why I think it may not be necessary to double the amount of Lay on Hands they get. I think the main trade-off you're going for here is the versatility of a normal paladin with spells opposed to a paladin with spells but with short rest rechargeable resources (the superiority dice) and with some permanent abilities as replacements for some iconic spells. Therefore I do not think a change to Lay on Hands is not really necessary.   Flavorwise, these paladins of yours are extremely cool though!
#16 shintashi Jun 24, 2015 8:07:02	doubling lay on hands is a common Paladin modifier from older editions. I don't have a problem with it, however, what is it worth? Well, it was worth 5 points back in the day. 5 points was the price of your fear immunity, disease immunity, or mental immunity. It was the same price as Detect Evil, and any two of these abilities was worth 10 points, which was the price of your normal Paladin spell casting ability.   I didn't have a problem with the double healing lay on hands. I noted some of the other options were really geared toward achieving a goal that multiclassing could probably do, but in a buffet style "pick of the litter" fashion.   I don't understand enough about the 5e fighter mechanics of superiority dice to comment on them. When i started playing paladins, they didn't have a smite option - it was a holy avenger +5 or nothing, and for half your career, it was usually nothing.   The Extra attack thing via innate haste... well, i can see how a character might like such a power, though why a paladin has it? Turns out the Cavalier Paladin modification from 1st edition AD&D had a better attack matrix than fighters. This is where balance falls into two camps. Either you are from the Conservative Old Ways are better camp, and believe a Paladin, traditionally being Over Powered, should still be over powered, because that's what makes them a Paladin - then it really doesn't matter if they have double healing, or bonus attacks, or invulnerability to 90% of the game, or giant wings, or 30d6 fireballs... because OP is tradition. The Revisionist camp of Balance suggests something was broken with the old Paladin and shouldn't outshine the Fighter - ironic considering the paladin is the textbook definition of knight in shining armor - the alpha hero. Since 5e paladins can be various alignments, various races, require the same experience points as fighters, and don't have to have exceptionally hard to roll stats,   my Conservative Old Ways campers are going to agree with the Revisionist Balancers.   the 5e Paladin shouldn't be outshining anything, because it's given the same Chef Ramsey Masterchef competition ingredient box, and it didn't win any special advantage over other classes. So whatever you bake in that oven, it's going to come out similar to the others.   What the OP posted seems like deliberate power grabbing in little areas that make the power gamer instinct I have buzz a little bit.   Here are the areas I stopped at and didn't feel good about:  The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or fiend. Starting at 9th level, you and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you have advantage on death saving throws. you cannot be paralyzed or restrained by spells and other magical effect any creature you hit with a weapon attack has its speed reduced by half until the end of its next turn. (no save? wtf) you may choose one damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder. You and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you gain resistance to the damage type you choose. You must be conscious to grant this benefit. You may change the damage type at the end of a long rest. (too many options to swap resistances for too many people) when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to halve the attack's damage against you. (a paladin with paladin hp and armor with this is a better tank than a barbarian)     Enemy creatures have disadvantage on all saving throws against your maneuvers and Channel Divinity options. (any time you have an always active permanent effect, it shouldn't be an agressive effect without a mechanism for the defender to block)
#17 GladiusLegis Jun 24, 2015 9:04:37	Mazzy wrote:
#18 Weedeater Jun 24, 2015 9:09:12	shintashi wrote:
#19 GladiusLegis Jun 24, 2015 9:09:53	shintashi wrote:
#20 GladiusLegis Jun 24, 2015 9:26:06	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #20) FrogReaver	GladiusLegis wrote:
#22 GladiusLegis Jun 24, 2015 11:06:03	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #22) FrogReaver	GladiusLegis wrote:
#24 GladiusLegis Jun 24, 2015 11:53:03	I think balance against other classes is important to consider, yes, especially if it's the same general mechanic they're using, in this case Combat Superiority. Comparing Lv. 3 versions of the Battle Master, the Spell-less Ranger, and this Spell-less Paladin, the Battle Master will still have Action Surge (plus Second Wind for self-healing, which has its strongest impact at the early levels), and the Spell-less Ranger (Hunter) will still have Colossus Slayer or Horde Breaker (along with Poultices for healing). The Spell-less Paladin needs something comparable.   The CS feature in general starts off rather powerful, more powerful than spellcasting, even. It's why Battle Master is such a popular choice for a 3-level Fighter dip. Spellcasting, however, overtakes it getting closer to Lv. 10. But even at Lv. 2, the regular Paladin gets to cast Bless, which alone can often tip a battle more convincingly than a 1st-level Smite. Or against a BBEG, Wrathful Smite is an absolute wrecker that even Menacing Attack, as good as it is, can only dream of being. So there's also that to consider.
#25 Lilika Jun 24, 2015 11:54:59	The more I think about it, the worse I feel about this homebrew.  If you want to maintain smite damage, or surpass it compared to the regular paladin, then you really shouldn't be looking at trying to equilize spells with comparable abilities.  Basically what you have is a pally that can heal almost as good as a pally that used spells to heal, smite more that a regular pally, and then add extra goodies to make up for spell that you don't have.     A normal pally has to choose between casting spells, to buff, heal or to smite.  Your version gets to smite all it wants and still gets goodies to make up for not having spells.  A normal pally gives up utility or heals to smite, your version gives up none of that for smiting.      I also think superiority dice being used as smite dice is redundant since their usual effect is to add extra damage.  In general I feel the pally class already does a good job of balance, most of the spells are former class abilities made into spells anyways.   For this version to be balanced I would leave lay on hands x5, keep superiority dice, but don't allow them for smiting, they do damage anyways, and use your superiority dice for rally if you want suedo healing.   But with that said, there is very little reason for a spell less pally anyways, since they are obviously a divine class.
#26 GladiusLegis Jun 24, 2015 11:58:55	Lilika wrote:
#27 GladiusLegis Jun 24, 2015 12:02:31	That said, I forgot about Rally, which the Paladin would be able to use much better than a typical Battle Master does. So that might help further justify returning Lay on Hands to normal.
(Reply to #26) Lilika	GladiusLegis wrote:
(Reply to #28) Yunru	Lilika wrote:
#30 Noctaem Jun 24, 2015 13:59:08	Sitting on your laurels to dismiss someone elses opinion when it's true doesn't make them any less right.  I notice that you chose to ignore the first half of the post Gladius:   Lilika wrote:
#31 GladiusLegis Jun 24, 2015 14:19:14	Divine Smite, Lay on Hands and Channel Divinity aren't spells, though. So it's still spell-less even with those in play. I went with Combat Superiority because (a) the Spell-less Ranger also uses it and it makes a fine analog, and (b) it covers on a small scale some of said moral boosting, inspiration, etc. already.
#32 Noctaem Jun 24, 2015 14:42:06	But they are spell like.  what's the point of making a homebrew titled spell-less paladin if you're just using spell-like abilities on steroids?  If you really want to split hairs and "it doesn't use spells" then fine.  If you really want to chose steal the best fighter archtype and stick in on that paladin chassis, fine.  But that's not interesting to me.  All you're doing is taking a high burst chassis, removing the limitations meant to balance the class, give the spell like abilities steroids and taking the best archtype of the highest DPR class...     Whatever you have fun.
#33 GladiusLegis Jun 24, 2015 15:28:19	Yeah, whatever, indeed.   So ... I made revisions: Returned Lay on Hands to normal. Rescaled Divine Smite so it's not as overpowering at low levels. Devoted Bodyguard now uses superiority dice and transfers damage from the target to you by that amount. Zealous Advance does not protect from paralysis. Thicket of Blades requires a Wisdom save now. Uncanny Dodge for the Ancients Paladin was replaced with Aura of Elemental Hazard which spreads a modicum of auto-AoE damage around. (And I do mean a modicum.) Avenger's Action is limited to Charisma modifier uses per day, which essentially now makes it a more powerful and versatile version of the War Domain's War Priest feature.
#34 durntaur Jun 24, 2015 15:36:41	GladiusLegis wrote:
#35 GladiusLegis Jun 24, 2015 15:38:39	durntaur wrote:
(Reply to #33) FrogReaver	GladiusLegis wrote:
#37 FrogReaver Jun 24, 2015 22:48:20	Additional thoughts.   This applies mostly to the Devotion and Nature.  They will both be packing 3 very nice arua's by max level.  That may be a little much especially with comparable divine smite damage output and lay on hands.  The only thing your really missing compared to a regular one of those paladins is a little versatility from spells.  You pretty much have everything else.  So i'm a little concerned you are overcompensating for that single weakness with the number of aura's and passive abilities you are granting.
#38 GladiusLegis Jun 25, 2015 10:23:16	FrogReaver wrote: