Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Sidthedidda Nov 09, 2014 20:12:28	Hey guys im looking to make a good murder mystery for my players and i have no idea how to create one and apply it to the rules and skills of D&D 4e.     So here is the jist of things: hours after a politcal meeting in the city of Hansenhall, Councilmen Beriaden was found dead in his chambers with an assassins dagger in his back. Beriaden was the minister of magical creation and creations in the city. The Current susspects are all of the council member (listed below) and one of the PC's who is Changling assassin. The capatain of the guard and many other political higer ups have great disdain for Changelings and are more than willing to go ahead and use him as a scape goat to avoid an expensive trial. This is where im stuck on making the actuall mystery.   Suspects: Councilman Tylus: Minister of logistics and royal keeper of knowledge Councilman Fosgoth: Minsiter of domsetic affairs and royal master of the telepathic communications network Councilman Rigerien: Minsiter of currecny and a grand merchant with a massive network of underlings. Counciman O'dran: Minister of destructive magics and archwizard of the Red thorn's magic guild. Teala: The kings personel maide who has the skeleton key to castle. Karz Riel: PC changleing assassin who has had alot of shady dealings in the past.
#2 MechaPilot Nov 09, 2014 20:28:59	Misdirection is an important part of any mystery.  The clues should lead to one suspect before a new clue is discovered or the earlier clues are revealed to have actually pointed at another suspect.   It also doesn't hurt if some of the potential suspects have things they want to keep secret.  Perhaps the maid is carrying on an affair with someone who wants the Councilman dead, or who has stolen things from the councilman's home, but who didn't kill the councilman.
#3 AKillingWord Nov 09, 2014 21:06:36	MechaPilot is dead on, there.   Other pieces of advice for key elements you could try to incorporate: You need to know every clue there is to be found - red herrings and critical information alike.  On the fly DMing is great, and a ton of fun, but in this particular situation you want to know the vital bits backward and forward before your players sit down to play. You need to know the order in which your clues will be found or presented.  Obviously, there's room for error here, but the best mysteries take a roughly non-linear route with the nature of the clues, insomuch as the information the PCs get early on should seem totally unrelated or unimportant until later, when the connective tissue between those early clues is revealed. You need to know ahead of time what every NPC doesn't know, what every NPC does know, and when every NPC learned that information.  Again, there is room for error here, but confusion here can lead parties far astray.  If someone you want the PCs to trust says something that doesn't jive with what the PCs have learned, you'll be helping them cast suspicion you don't have a plan for.  You can want them to suspect the wrong person, as MechaPilot said above, but you want to stay in control of who they suspect.  Worse, without this sort of planning, you could lead them to suspecting the actual killer long before you meant for them to.  That being said, sometimes it's fun to make them suspect the killer intentionally, then have them be sure of his or her innocence, just to lead them back to him or her near the climax. Since you're playing 4th Edition, come up with a plan for negating, misdirecting, or otherwise thwarting characters with Divination rituals and Enchantment rituals (I never paid much attention to rituals, so I don't know if there are any Zone of Truth, Detect Lies, or Charm Person type-rituals or spells that could conceivably throw a monkey wrench into your well-crafted lies and well-hidden secrets). Talk to the person playing the changeling assassin PC, and find out if there is anything in the character's backstory you can weave into the mystery.  Maybe he has information about somebody that he doesn't know is important yet.  Bonus points if you can use pieces of his backstory to make the other PCs doubt his innocence. Finally, a murder mystery is essentially a story told backward, from the recent immediacy of the murder, to the origins of the plot.  The normal story-telling rules apply, but in reverse. However you end up doing this, have fun with it.  It's a lot of work to make a good murder mystery adventure, but the pay-off is very much worth it.  Good luck!
#4 MechaPilot Nov 09, 2014 21:19:57	AKillingWord has some very good points about knowing each clue back and forth, and knowing what the important NPCs know.     One thing that can be fun is the reveal moment.  We've all seen it before.  The intrepid investigator has all the suspects gathered together in a room and declares that she knows who the real killer is.  She then goes on to describe how and why she suspected each of them in turn, finally coming to the real killer in the climax of the scene (often with thunder and lightning from the stereotypical rainstorm outside); in an RPG setting, this is likely to turn into a chase or a fight.   Not only can the reveal moment be a cathardic way for the PCs to gloat about how smart they are to have figured out the mystery, it can also be useful to you as the DM.  Hearing what led the PCs to think a certain way and why can help you improve future mysteries (murder or otherwise).
#5 bawylie Nov 10, 2014 7:18:55	A mystery or investigation is a backward reconstruction of events which already have happened. Clues aren't merely hints or leads to an answer. They are Evidence Of a Fact. And they come in two forms. Direct evidence (such as a dead body) and indirect evidence (like a trail of blood and drag marks in the floor).      A mystery is "solved" when the relevent facts are pieced together to reconstruct the most likely series of events.      Therefore, when you design a mystery or investigation, you must first determine what happened. Then you must create the evidence that proves the facts of what happened. Because your players are not likely real life detectives (and you're not Sherlock Holmes), the evidence must be 1.) Obtainable, observable, and accessible (not hidden) and 2.) must clearly prove a fact OR lead to a fact (if followed-up).      Elaborate mysteries with multiple chains and clues are oversold. A single bit of evidence can be sufficient to prove a fact, but it doesn't have to be the only evidence that exists. And because players tend to have access to magic, you should be generous with the evidence you give.      Remember also that the "solution" to the investigation is the MID-WAY point of your plot line. "You've figured out the answer. Now what are you going to do about it?" (TV and movies can put it at the end because, again, the writer controls the placement of all required people and evidence. You don't.).      If you want to see this kind of thing done in an engaging way, look at some of the investigation side missions in Batman: Arkham Origins. Batman scans a crime scene for evidence, reverse-engineers the crime, identifies the perpetrator, and then locates and busts him. They only take 10 minutes of play but that's good pacing for that game.
#6 bawylie Nov 10, 2014 7:25:52	There's some advice up thread about creating red-herrings, and misleading your players. Ignore it.    For one, I don't want to abrogate the trust between DM and Player (or risk it). For two, the players will come up with red herrings on their own, probably 90% of the time. Last, your job as DM isn't to shepherd players through a labyrinthine plot - it's to fairly adjudicate.    This means telling your players when they're barking up the wrong tree or have exhausted a lead. "You spend another half hour interrogating the suspect, but you've learned all he can tell you. To recap: Blah blah blah." Or "after some discussion, it becomes clear this man knows nothing."   Another consideration is that investigations draw out gossip and accusations. People try to pin things or cast suspicion on political enemies or social rivals. Make sure your players know the difference between actual evidence and backbiting. Frankly, use backbiting very sparingly.    If you follow my advice, it may seem your first mystery is too easy. But you already know the answer. The players will have some struggle with it. By your second one, you'll have a better idea how to link your evidence.
#7 7he_professor Nov 10, 2014 10:20:29	The three posters in this thread have provided some excellent advice.  All I can add is: don't be too upset if you give it away right away and it doesn't feel very mysterious.  It's your first time and it might be a little clunky, but don't try to change everything mid-game just to make it harder.  It comes across as a feeble attempt to save face and it's typically obvious.  Just let your players feel super smart for a while, then, a few sessions later, hit them with a harder one.     either way...just my 2 cp
#8 Finieous Nov 10, 2014 10:47:07	Agree with bawylie: You're not writing a mystery novel; you're setting up a situation for the PCs to investigate. Literary devices such as red herrings (which entice the READER to misinterpret evidence that has been presented) are irrelevant. In the context of your game, any lead that goes nowhere (or worse) is effectively a red herring. As DM, you must be able to answer all of the following in great detail:   * Who is the victim? * Who is the perpetrator(s)? * How was the victim killed? * When was the victim killed? * Why was the victim killed? * Where was the victim killed? * Where was the body found? * How was the body found? * Who besides the perpetrator and victim knows the answers to each of these questions? * Does the perpetrator know the crime is being investigated? * Does he know who is investigating? * If so, how does he react?   Once you know the answers to these questions inside and out, you can identify evidence the PCs can discover to begin answering them as well. Even if you aren't sure at the start what the evidence or "clues" should be, just answering these questions in detail will suggest them: "Oh, the body is found in the castle library, but the victim was actually drowned in the garden pool. So that means..."
#9 Lashan Nov 10, 2014 11:06:06	It is my opinion that the suspects need to be flavorful to make it interesting.  Make sure to make those characters pop.  Give each of them some rearl flavor.  Don't just say "respectable merchant".  Make him an obese wine merchant who loves erotic elven art sculptures.  Make another twitchy and have a few things set him off....like getting dirty.  These are the types of things that will make it an interesting adventure.   Also, set up some conflict between the various people.  Make sure they are entangled in some way and agitated witht each other.  Make sure each has a reason to kill the suspect and/or something to hide.
(Reply to #9) bawylie	Lashan wrote:
#11 Sidthedidda Nov 10, 2014 13:45:12	Finieous wrote:
#12 Sidthedidda Nov 10, 2014 14:03:25	So here we go to try this out. *Who is the victim:   Councilmen Beriaden * Who is the perpetrator(s):   Councilmen O'dran * How was the victim killed?   Soul ripped from his body by a special gautlet * When was the victim killed?   Late at night hours after a council meeting * Why was the victim killed?      Came to close to finding out that the red thorns were following and using a new evil magic called chaos * Where was the victim killed?    In the garden * Where was the body found?    In his room * How was the body found?        With an assasssins knife in his back * Who besides the perpetrator and victim knows the answers to each of these questions?    O'dran's daughter, Morrigan ( she knows of his muderous ways) * Does the perpetrator know the crime is being investigated?    Definatley * Does he know who is investigating?     Yes * If so, how does he react?     By using djinn assassins to get rid of stubborn investigators and public misdirection with illusion magics to spread false rumors.     How does that look. Though it might not be the actuall case it's just an example.
(Reply to #12) Finieous	Sidthedidda wrote:
#14 MechaPilot Nov 10, 2014 14:22:36	bawylie wrote:
#15 SterlingRat Nov 10, 2014 20:22:25	I can't give advice on doing it right... I've tried a couple times and failed. once I made it too complicated and the investigation became frustrating. The party left town and hunted goblins... so the murderer took over part of the town and they came back to fight. They had fun, though... but the murder - mystery was essentially ignored. Then I tried again and they got it in a half hour... i had to "wing" an entire session. I wasn't very good at that session. I'm not sure what advice i can give other than "have a backup plan in case the murder - mystery isn't working. "
(Reply to #14) bawylie	MechaPilot wrote:
(Reply to #12) bawylie	Sidthedidda wrote:
#18 Koga305 Nov 10, 2014 21:34:22	There's a great article on the gaming website The Alexandrian that deal with this subject. It's called the three clue rule. The gist is that PCs are very likely to miss out on the hints you give them, so the easiest way to make sure they find the "plot" (in this case, solve the murder) is to give them three seperate clues that lead to each conclusion they need to make. They'll create any red herrings you need, and this saves you having to scramble to find a way to tell them what's going on if they can't figure it out.   "For any conclusion you want the PCs to make, include at least three clues."
#19 bawylie Nov 10, 2014 22:12:06	The Three Clue Rule is designed to increase the odds that your Players encounter some lead or clue. It doesn't guarantee they will, but it does increase the odds.    What the 3 Clue Rule DOES guarantee is that you'll do three times the work.    When I design my mystery, I create a scenario and fill out the Who What Where When Why and How questions that detail that scenario. Some of the answers will be obvious (known or otherwise directly observable). So at most, I have 6 variables. In practice 3 or 4.    The answers to the unknown questions are probable by facts. All facts must have evidence (direct or indirect) that establishes it. So now I create my evidence (forensic, witness testimony, etc). And each piece of evidence has a Clue or Lead.    If you use the 3 Clue Rule, you'll need between 9 and 18 clues. If you do it my way, you'll need 3-6.    Because I understand that the point of running a mystery adventure is to solve it, I give out clues. Therefore my players don't need 3 laying around. The odds of my players discovering a clue are already at 100%. No need to increase the odds by adding extras. Just give it to them.    Giving out clues IS NOT THE SAME as giving out answers. It's up to the Players to investigate the clue, find the evidence and establish the Facts. Just because they have a clue, doesn't mean they have the fact. They have access to it, but it's up to them to put it all together.    Then we have our solution. Right or wrong, the players have assembled the evidence and arrived at a conclusion.  This is the midway point of our adventure. Bc once you have the answer, then what? You have to act on it.    At any rate, the 3 Clue Rule is a system for people who love systems. It adds nothing to a well-thought out mystery game. It triples your work load unnecessarily and still manages to fail utterly at anything other than process. You get the same result by saying "you can find Clue #1 at the following 3 locations" in your prep/notes. You'd do better writing "when the players arrive at [location] give them clue #1."
#20 Sidthedidda Nov 10, 2014 22:40:46	bawylie wrote:
#21 Sidthedidda Nov 10, 2014 22:54:41	As for awnser to question i think i have a good little red herring kind of thing that might not upset the players to much.   O'dran has taken an oath that does not allow him to murder innocent or kill for monitary gain  and he has the ring to prove it. But what im going to leave for the PC is the CODEX for the Red thorns that has one specific page removed that speaks of a sybmol tattoed to O'dran neck. After some invetigation the PC's will find that the tattoo on O'dran's neck means "Oath Breaker" giving the whole sense of "He could do it again."   But im thinking of putting that on another one of the suspects to deepen the mystery.   There will also be motives for others to hurt or kill Beriaden ones that are eqully as strong.   Teala: Sent her previous husband to die in a magical "Experiment" Fosgoth: Massive buisness and magical rival. Rigerian: Beriadin had the king put a an on his most profitable import. Tylus: Beriaden has books and knowledge that Tylus desperatley wants.
#22 CFK Nov 11, 2014 0:46:13	Coincidental i'm working on a murder mystery adventure right now to be used as our first 5th edition campaign.   Set in a keep during festivities where all the nobles are invited. During the first night it's all just a social thing but during the dinner one of the people present will be poisoned.   Can't go into detail, a few members are browsing these forums ;)   All i can say that, with 22 different persons and therefore 22 different backgrounds and about 4 X 22 stories you can pull out of them it's a beast of a writing!   And yes, the thing is misdirection! Just in real life every member has it's doubts on the person next to him. Mix that with jelousy or even pure stupidity and i'm betting there are some great hours of playing. One person points to another person and so on. In the end it's just crossing out all the suspects untill one person remains.   Thanks for all the great tips here. I'm sure i'll learn alot!
#23 Lashan Nov 11, 2014 5:54:44	bawylie wrote:
#24 CFK Nov 11, 2014 6:22:26	Or, always nice in a fantasy realm, someone turned to the dark magics of the world and needed a virgin/paladin/goody-two-shoes/influentials blood!
(Reply to #23) bawylie	Lashan wrote:
#26 Sidthedidda Nov 11, 2014 20:05:13	That was a good lump of Info on making a mystery. I learned quite alot and have started putting the mystery together for my players. When we get to that session ill post how it went. Thank you all.
#27 Lashan Nov 12, 2014 5:17:57	bawylie wrote:
#28 bawylie Nov 12, 2014 6:20:47	I think my "don't make shifty cagey NPCs" advice comes from a place where every interaction is an interrogation. DMs that want to make you hit that high roll before they say anything.    In my investigations, (now I'm saying real life) people open up. They talk and talk and talk. I've never met a Johnny Tightlips.    By all means, include all kinds of stuff. But don't just sit there as a DM and give nothing to work from (either in the game sense or the RP sense). Too many "he's hiding something, but he won't say what" NPCs. IMO
#29 CFK Nov 12, 2014 6:42:32	bawylie wrote:
#30 bawylie Nov 12, 2014 7:03:20	This should be obvious but TV is 100% under control. The writers determine both sides of a conversation and its outcome. In D&D, your audience is participatory. When the DM clams up, the players have little to work with.    Its not fun. As DM your role isn't merely to portray the NPCs, you're also the eyes and ears of the Players. It's incumbent in you to provide actionable input. When You stop talking, it's not merely that your NPCs clam up. Your PCs go blind and deaf.    And what do you get out of it? What's the purpose of clamming up? Is "be more like CSI?" a goal of your game? (Note that when a TV suspect lawyers up, the show changes scenes - d&d doesn't). Or are you trying to protect the mystery plot so it isn't solved "too early?" (whatever that means to you).     I bet the solution is to put in 3 tight-lipped NPCs. That'll work. Call it the 3 useless NPC rule. If you're going to have one, the players might not even encounter him! Better put in 3 so the game really has a chance to grind to a halt. ;)
(Reply to #30) Timborama	bawylie wrote:
#32 bawylie Nov 12, 2014 7:22:58	Alright, let's take on the case of the tight lipped NPC.    When a person refuses to speak in an investigation, it tends to be because they fear something or want something. In order to proceed, to get them to open up, you have to remove that fear or provide what's wanted. This is why investigators are empowered to offer deals to secure cooperation. And why they tend to add fears that they then have the power to take away ("You'll go to jail for life, but if you talk, I'll see to it you walk.")    So if silence is the obstacle between the players and their goal (actionable info), the player will still need to know what the NPC wants or fears. So at minimum, that NPC has to say something along the lines of "I won't say another word until (Blah blah)." And then the PCs can decide whether or not it is in their power to overcome that obstacle.