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| #1FrogReaverFeb 26, 2015 23:05:59 | The Battlemaster Fighter gets a maneuver called precision attack. I believe this manuever is vastly underrated.
Consider a level 20 heavy crossbow fighter (1d10 damage and 400 range). Consider the fighter has 20 dex and the starpshooter and crossbow expertise feats. Our fighter gets 4 attacks per round. A combat encounter lasts about 4 rounds and there are 6 such encounters a day. This comes out to 96 attacks during a day. Since I have action surge I'll assume I use one per day on extra attacks and make that an even 100 attacks per day for easy computations.
I'm going to assume a base 65% chance to hit. Archery style gives me a 75% chance to hit. The -5/+10 feat leaves me at 50% chance to hit. I will do 1d10 + 15 damage per hit (AVG 20.5).
That comes out to 1025 damage per per day. 1025/4 = 256.25 Damage per day per extra attack.
Since I rolled for 100 attacks I can expect each die roll to come up about 5 times each. That means I should miss by 1, 2, and 3 each 5 times.
I will have about 18 superiority dice per day.
Using precision attack on each attack that misses by 1 ensures a hit. Using precision attack on each attack that misses by 2 should turn 91.67% of those into hits Using precision attack on each attack that misses by 3 should turn 83.33% of those into hits
This means roughly 90% of my superiority dice will turn misses into hits. This means I'll get about 16 extra hits out of those dice. 16*20.5 = 328.
Conclusion. Precision attack can easily give considerably more damage than an extra attack on one of the higher damage fighter setups. Similar results are expected to be found with hand crossbows as well.
It gives considerably more damage when used optimally than adding 6.5 more damage to 18 attacks (a 117 damage average). In other words, it's a very underestimated ability in the right fighters hands. It should easily be a ranged fighters preffered damage manuever. |
| #2FrogReaverFeb 26, 2015 23:19:07 | Now let's consider precision attack's effectiveness on a slightly more "mainstream build".
A crowwbow expertise and sharpshooter build that maxes dex early. Let's consider the build at level 12.
A few notable differences is that my average damage is a 18.5 vs 20.5 as above. I still get the same number of attacks. However, my superiority dice are d10's and I only get 15 as opposed to 18 of them.. However, my 90% estimate for turning misses into hits should still be valid.
100*18.5*.5 = 925 damage per day. This comes out to about 231.5 damage per extra attack per day.
I should turn about 13.5 misses into hits with these assumptions. Let's lowball our estimates with the 13 figure.
This comes out to 13*18.5 = 240.5. This is just slightly better than an extra attack. It is much better than the 15*5.5=82.5 extra damage just using the superiority dice for damage could cause.
So yet again, precision attack is about as good as an extra attack!!! That's actually pretty incredible.
***Precision attack should decrease somewhat in effectiveness as number of attacks decrease. I'm finished doing math for a bit on this topic but maybe later I will explore by how much. Just wanted to get this out there. |
| #3FrogReaverFeb 26, 2015 23:22:48 | I anticipate that precision attack will be slightly better on most great weapon master and polearm master setups!!! |
| #4PsikerlordFeb 27, 2015 1:07:14 | I've played precision attack and... it's ok... but a bit boring, honestly.
Most times you hit anyway. Occasionally turning a miss into a hit isnt that exciting.
I would not take it again, whatever the math averaging might say. I would rather something interesting like commanders strike, or the one that makes an enemy frightened, or the parry to prevent dropping to zero (we use injury rules at zero hp).
I did use it a lot though, I must confess. Maybet that contributed to the boringness. Just turning misses into hits, while effective, is not very interesting. The other abilities I took were the push attack and the disarm attack (DMG wasnt out then! I wouldnt take disarm since DMG made it an anyone action).
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| #5AaronOfBarbariaFeb 27, 2015 1:17:21 | I think precision attack is a good maneuver to have for those times when you just need to hit, like when 1 more hit will probably finish off the monster that has your buddy tightly in it's grasp and is going to kill him for sure if you don't stop it right now - but it isn't a thrilling enough maneuver to be a "go to" in a character's arsenal.
When I play a battle master, I fully intend to take it as one of my maneuvers, but expect that I'll be using pushing attack more often than it. |
| (Reply to #4)Yunru |
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| #7PsikerlordFeb 27, 2015 3:01:33 |
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| #8QwertyAzertyFeb 27, 2015 6:03:49 | I wish the Eldrtich knight would allow you to choose the 2 schools you want to "specialized" in. (same with Arcane trickster)
This way I can make my Abjuration/Transmuatation fighter, my frien can make his Necromancer/conjuration build where he want to command an army and drain HP from his ennemies, and the new kid at the table can take evocation/enchantment to make stuff goes boom even if it's not efficient with the lower then 20 Fighter Intellect. |
| #9KayalFeb 27, 2015 6:17:29 |
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| (Reply to #4)FrogReaver |
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| #11Mommy_was_an_OrcFeb 27, 2015 7:49:48 | Yup, Precision Attack is an amazing maneuver, especially if you consistently have Advantage and one of the -5/-10 feats... |
| (Reply to #5)danyc |
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| (Reply to #11)FrogReaver |
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| #14Mommy_was_an_OrcFeb 27, 2015 9:11:41 |
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| (Reply to #12)FrogReaver |
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| (Reply to #14)FrogReaver |
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| #17KayalFeb 27, 2015 13:21:59 |
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| #18PsikerlordFeb 27, 2015 14:50:23 |
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| #19Mommy_was_an_OrcFeb 27, 2015 19:35:26 |
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| #20Hibiki54Feb 28, 2015 1:08:37 | If you know the targets AC before hand, Precision Strike is great because you have the chance to turn an obvious miss into a hit. Although, you do need to make the decision to use the maneuver before your DM announces that you hit or not. If you do not know the target AC, you need to fish for it's AC. |
| (Reply to #20)Yunru |
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| (Reply to #20)Coredump00 |
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| #23YunruFeb 28, 2015 6:39:30 | No, because hitting (or missing) them is part of the attack roll. It's literally what it's for. The outcome of the attack roll is not an effect of the attack roll, merely part of it. "You hit." Is not an effect that is applied. It is a statement. Damage, conditions, etc- they're all effects of the attack roll, to compare. |
| (Reply to #23)Lucas_Blackstone |
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| #25KayalFeb 28, 2015 7:25:12 | I agree with Coredump on this one. Success or failure might be determined by the roll, but the existance of an effect is a result of the action. I mean, the attack occurs (and creates an effect) whether you are successful or not. (If you fail, then the effect is a miss; if you succeed, then the effect is an hit). Damage is a result of the hit, not of the attack itself.
That being said, I respect everyone's right to adjudicate this however works best for them. Certianly, though, allowing players to know whether the attack was a hit or miss before they decide to apply Precise Attack does make Precise Attack more powerful. Just something to bear in mind ... especially in conjunction with certian feats that you may or may not consider broken.
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| (Reply to #25)Yunru |
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| (Reply to #25)FrogReaver |
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| #28FrogReaverFeb 28, 2015 9:49:09 | Precision attack literally says: "You can use this maneuver before or after making the attack roll, but before any effects of the attack are applied."
Consider this scenario: The fighter has no idea what a targets AC is. He rolls his first attack and rolls a 13. The DM declares it as a miss. He rolls his second attack and rolls a 14. The DM declares it as a hit. He then says I want to use precision attack on the first attack. Does your reading of it allow this retroactive application?
My reading: a hit or a miss is an "effect" of the attack and so he would be inelegible to do this Your reading: a hit or a miss is NOT an "effect" of the attack and so since no effects of the attack have been applied then he is still eligible to do this.
In fact in more extreme cases, YOUR READING would allow him to retroactively apply the dice to an attack in a previous turn since both conditions would be met: 1. it would be after the attack roll 2. it would be before any effects of the attack are applied.
In conclusion the reading that any effect does not pertain to the hitting or missing of the attack allows for very weird rulings. The reading that any effect does pertain to the hitting and missing of the attack does not allow such things. |
| (Reply to #26)FrogReaver |
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| #30KayalFeb 28, 2015 11:04:22 |
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| #31YunruFeb 28, 2015 12:28:17 | And again, "hitting" is not an effect, it's a statement. In no way, shape or form can hitting rightly be considered an effect of an attack roll. Things may be an effect of hitting as you're so keen to point out, but again: that's irrelevent, because we're only concerned with the attack roll which only covers "Do I hit?" |
| (Reply to #30)Yunru |
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| #33YunruFeb 28, 2015 12:33:52 | I'll try and be clearer: Hitting (or missing) is not an effect of an attack roll, it is the attack roll. |
| (Reply to #33)FrogReaver |
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| #35PsikerlordFeb 28, 2015 13:53:50 |
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| (Reply to #34)Yunru |
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| #37Mommy_was_an_OrcFeb 28, 2015 15:03:34 |
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| (Reply to #35)FrogReaver |
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| (Reply to #36)FrogReaver |
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| (Reply to #37)FrogReaver |
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| #41YunruFeb 28, 2015 16:01:13 |
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| (Reply to #41)FrogReaver |
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| (Reply to #33)Coredump00 |
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| #44BaphogoatFeb 28, 2015 20:10:42 | I woulds say that you would not be told if your attack hit or miss before you had the chance to use precision attack. What other effect is there for the DM to determine for you? You already know what the damage and other effects of the hit will be, you just dont know if you hit until the DM tells you, though you do know what armor class you hit before you tell the DM the result of your attack roll and can decide if you wish to use precision attack or not before he tells if the attack hit or miss. |
| #45KayalFeb 28, 2015 21:23:27 |
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| #46YunruMar 01, 2015 2:52:47 | Except an outcome is not an effect. If you add 2 to 15 the outcome is 17, but "17" is not magically an effect. Everything else you've tried to list, "what happens on a miss", "doing damage", are all effects of hitting. They are effects of the attack roll, and it's before thrm that you'd have to use Precision Strike.
Heck, some of you have even said as much:
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| (Reply to #45)Yunru |
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| #48KayalMar 01, 2015 6:37:36 |
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| #49Mommy_was_an_OrcMar 01, 2015 9:08:57 |
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| #50YunruMar 01, 2015 9:09:47 | And yet, by your reasoning there's no reason to word it as is. If it being rolled has an effect that's not counted as part of the attack roll, then you cannot use Precision Attack after the roll, since you've already hit/missed at that point. |
| #51KayalMar 01, 2015 9:43:50 |
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| #52YunruMar 01, 2015 9:52:07 | Is parking part of driving? Is winning part of gaming? Is ending part of a story?
Then why wouldn't the conclusion of an attack roll be part of the attack roll? And if it is, then you can apply Precision Strike after that. |
| (Reply to #47)FrogReaver |
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| #54FrogReaverMar 01, 2015 10:11:45 | Yunru , does a missed attack cause any effects? |
| #55KayalMar 01, 2015 10:31:35 |
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| #56Coredump00Mar 01, 2015 14:34:44 | Swinging a sword, or throwing a dagger, or firing an arrow.... are all separate and distinct from hitting or missing the target.
When you attack, it can have different effects. It can hit, or it can miss, it can critically hit, etc... There may be further effects, like bleeding or death... but hitting is not an intrinsic part of attacking, so it must be an effect/result of attacking.
If not, write the rule "If you miss, you may add the die to the attack roll and if that results in a hit, deal damage normally" They use wording like this for Shield, because you are allowed to wait for the result of the attack with that spell.
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