Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 luckyme81 Mar 24, 2015 2:11:36	Hello all,   I am new to this forum. I already serched for some threads concerning this, but I didn't find actual ones, because most of them were discussed before the DMG came out. I am playing a rogue, reaching level 4 at the next session and I would like to know if the Observant feat is a must or if it is tricky, because of the passive/active discussion, which I still don't know what's going on.     Is the passive check a minimum check that is taken into consideration, if the active check is worth?   Is it plausible to take higher passive DCs than active DCs? To be honest this would make the debate even more complicated. And I would be almost at the point to take another feat just avoid nasty discussions with my DM.   I have great expactations to your answers! Frank
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Mar 24, 2015 2:39:47	The benefits of the observant feat are some of the more situational ones found in the feats of 5e.   The increase to either Ingelligence or Wisdom is fairly straightforward, and likely of decent benefit in the overal scope of a character if not in the immediate sense.   Being able to read lips is also beneficial, but the circumstances in which such a benefit is truly helpful are heavily dependent on the style of campaign at hand - reading a goblin's lips out in the wilderness might have minor benefit, but reading a noble's lips from across a ballroom might be the thing that makes/breaks an entire party goal.   Then, there are the even more situational benefits of increased passive perception and investigation. The benefit of these bonuses depends entirely upon your DM's style; some DMs use passive scores to speed play along in situations where a player might otherwise spend a lot of time checking and rechecking to be sure they hadn't missed something important, but some DMs feel like passive scores remove some of the fun or challenge of a situation.   So it falls to talking with the DM about whether passive scores are going to be used, how they will be used, or if their not being in use will alter this portion of the benefit of the feat.   In my campaigns, passive scores are used constantly (and for more than just perception and investigation) - basically anything that the only immediate consequence of failure is that you spent time, and would spend more time to keep trying (like searching, spotting, or remembering things) I use a passive score to represent those efforts compressed into a single try that shows either you can get it done or you need to change the circumstances in some way - so the observant feat is a great feat to have since it makes it very difficult for anything to hide from or surprise you, and very likely that you won't miss any clues that might help you reach your goals.
#3 Byakugan01 Mar 24, 2015 3:20:27	A lot of people think the feat makes hardly any sense.     In the HoTDQ game we ran, all the DMs i played with either constantly forgot that my passive investigate was a 22, or they randomly decided that whatever was there required an active check.  So i was frequently asking for my passive score to find things, then being told to roll...which is like getting penalized with disadvantage because you -tried- to find it.     The adventure itself is far from consistent in the application of passive checks.    How do you passively investigate something?   You are continually trying to find things but arent -actively- looking.  Kinda counterintuitive.    Yeah yeah, sherlock holmes, i know.
(Reply to #3) AaronOfBarbaria	Byakugan01 wrote:
#5 SterlingRat Mar 24, 2015 6:10:40	In both my DMing game and the game I'm playing in, Observant is awesome for ONE PLAYER in the party to have. Especially if it's the scout.   A lot of hiding monsters and traps and distant noises that provide important clues are detectable without rolling if your Passive Perception is over a certain Target number... usually 13, but I've seen up to 17 for some hard to spot/hear things. and for hidden ambushers or sentries, they need to beat the Passive Perception with their stealth roll.   In the game I DM'd, a gnome monk took Observant at Level 8 for a PP of 21. From that point on, he spotted every hidden trap, hidden enemy, hidden door, hidden note, hidden inscriptions or other clue there was to be spotted. I was initially upset by this because it took away any dice rolling suspense. I quickly got over it and started to like how much it really sped up the game... and I got to just tell them about the hidden clues and things. Once I adapted to it, it was kind of cool.   However, if a second player had observant... what, you would find everything twice? As of yet, I have never had someone in one of my groups detect a trap or hear a voice or anything like that and *not* tell the rest of the party.
#6 iserith Mar 24, 2015 6:31:45	Byakugan01 wrote:
#7 luckyme81 Mar 24, 2015 6:40:31	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #7) SterlingRat	luckyme81 wrote:
#9 iserith Mar 24, 2015 7:06:55	luckyme81 wrote:
#10 luckyme81 Mar 24, 2015 7:25:25	iserith wrote:
#11 iserith Mar 24, 2015 8:25:37	luckyme81 wrote:
#12 Kalani Mar 24, 2015 8:38:29	As I have said in other threads - if you want some idea's for how someone might use passive Investigation - think Sherlock Holmes from the BBC Sherlock series. Investigation is used to search for things.   Small Clues that help you to come to a conclusion are how I handle passive investigation checks. Examples include: The fact that all books on a shelf are arranged alphabetically, except for one misplaced book. Knowing that the person who designed the secret passage is fastidious, compulsive, and has a strong sense of order due to the alphabetized books is Insight. The combination lock is arranged in groups of three digits, and the statue in the corner is holding three daggers. Noticing the blood smear on someone's cuff is perception. Noticing that the splatter pattern on the wall indicates that someone was standing in front of it is investigation.   Noticing that a draft issues from a nearby bookshelf is perception. Deducing that the misplaced book on the shelf is the lever that opens the secret door is investigation.   Sherlock would notice the misplaced book passively, as his mind has already deduced the books are arranged alphabetically and would immediately pick up on the inconsistency.
#13 Kalani Mar 24, 2015 10:35:25	Also, there is an example of a passive investigation check in DDEX1-12
#14 BRJN Mar 27, 2015 18:20:21	SterlingRat wrote:
#15 awaken_D_M_golem Mar 29, 2015 12:56:33	Not a whole lot of there there, for Passive Investigate. Semi-port of 3e Search skill material might help. Investigate does seem to be the skill thing versus Illusions. But again, what's the diff with Passive v Illusions, and Active v Illusions ? ?? ???   Lip reading at 1 mile with Barb Eagle 6, is a rather juicy thing. Throw in Comprehend Language or Tongues as a ritual. Further get Warlock 2 Devil's Site, now do it in magical darkness.    The +1 Wis part fits with Var Human being the only race that can get a +2 Wis at the start.