Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 TheLastDunedain Oct 16, 2014 8:04:33	Help me come up with the ultimate dragon hunter build in 5e. Naturally, melee characters need a method of grounding a dragon or flying. Ranged characters need magic (or a whole mess of magic arrows) Paladin's immunity to fear sounds good. Warlock's EB (plus Spear and Spell Sniper) is great! What about things like Ranger's favored enemy? How would you build a dragon hunter?
#2 Corran21 Oct 16, 2014 9:37:25	Essentialy you are asking something with extremelly good dpr and tanking capabilities and a resistance to the dragon's breath damage (so a protection from energy spell, or if you have a particular type of dragon to go against in mind, a race with the appropriate resistance or 6 levels of draconic sorcerer). Oh, and not to forget.... a powerful group of teamates, because let's face it, no matter how strong you are you won't be able to take a dragon on your own (unless we are talking about really high levels here).   But seriously, you just need a good build (fix : a really good build), so that would depend a lot on what level you are starting. As you said, range is also the better option, unless you have access to a fly spell. Otherwise, just go only for the fluff, picking a paladin of Bahamut/Tiamat, or a draconic sorcerer, or even a ranger with an elaborate backstory of why he hates dragons (that could go with other classes as well).    But as I said, before even starting discussing about this build, you have to set a level, upon which you expect this dragonbane build to start being effective. If you can wait until level 10 for your dragon slayer to be effective, the recommended build might be entirely different than if you would be willing to wait until another level.   Edit: You are definitelly looking for a build that focuses on solo combat, so paladin (vengeance) is a good class to go about, as they excel in facing a single strong enemy.
#3 Szenden Oct 16, 2014 11:02:06	I'd definitely recommend at least 3 levels of Ranger. Choose Dragons as a favored enemy, and at 3rd level choose the hunter path with the Colossus Slayer (I think that was the name) ability. After the first damage it takes you can add 1d8 to one successful attack on subsequent rounds.
#4 TheLastDunedain Oct 16, 2014 11:16:18	Let's say the build doesn't need to really kick in til level 12. Shouldn't be facing any adult dragons much before then. How does that affect things?
#5 Kavrek Oct 16, 2014 12:56:10	Hmm...I have a few builds that might take title of "King of Dragon Hunters"   Race: Stout Halfling or Variant Human   Stout Halfling Benefits: Lucky, Brave, Halfling Nimbleness, Stout Resilience (no other race comes with better inborn racial features for fighting dragons toe to claw, especially green dragons, than this sub-race)   Variant Human: Extra feat, skill, language (draconic), and +1 to two stats make it pretty powerful. Class: Barbarian   Base Class Benefits: Everything except Reckless Attack and Persistent Rage which are situational. Hp, skills, features...all good even before subclass   *unless better medium magical armor** is found, Unarmored Defense is great because it allows you to focus of resources on things like travel, spell casting services, tool profs, learning languages (draconic), building a highly secure stronghold for all the loot from plundered lairs, buying a sailing ship if you choose Sailor background*.   **Really looking for armor with special traits, not just higher AC. The higher level dragons have a really high 'to hit', so any features on the armor, like resistances or immunites to damage types, is what you want.   Sub-Class: Either has benefits, with Totem having a few more for general utility   Frenzy Benefits: Mindless Rage and Retaliation are both amazing. Frenzy should be used only when the barbarian believes the fight is near finished and the dragon cannot escape due to the exhausiton caused by the ability.   Totem Barbarian: Spirit Seeker can help you scout/gather information about dragons in certain areas. The totem spirit of the Bear taken at 3rd level, the spirit of the Eagle or Wolf taken at 6th level, and the spirit of the Eagle taken at 14th level will add first excellent defense, then utility, then flight to strike pesky flying dragons.   Starting Stats: Str: 14 (7 points) Dex: 16 (7 points + 2 Racial) Con: 16 (9 points +1 Racial) Int: 8 Wis: 12 (4 points) Cha: 8   Level 12 Stats and feats*: Str: 18 (2 +2 stat bumps) Dex: 16 Con: 16 Int: 8 Wis: 12 Cha: 8   *Feat: Shield Master   Level 20 Stats: Str: 22 Dex: 20 (2+2 stat bumps) Con: 20 Int: 8 Wis: 12 Cha: 8   Class Skills: Depending on background taken. If Outlander is taken then class skill choices should be Perception and Nature. If Sailor is taken class skill choices should be Nature and Survival.   Background: Outlander or Sailor. Both have great features for traveling to or finding dragons and dragon lairs.   Weapons & Armor: The longsword will generally be your barbarians weapon of choice along with a shield. Shortbow for ranged combat until after level 4 at which point thrown weapons could be used. Medium armor if it surpasses Unarmored Defense, and a shield (hopefully magical by level 12)   **Fighting dragons in the dark is very hard for these builds without tools/gear, or spells cast on them. If that is going to be a big issue, Moutain Dwarf or Half Orc are decent, but I would rather find a way to get light on my Halfling, or Goggles of Night.
#6 Timborama Oct 16, 2014 13:04:05	13th level spell casters can either raise an entire undead army to combat the dragon, or make a giant clone army (with spellcasting ability!) to defeat him.   Though your DM may disapprove of such shenannigans. In which case, go Paladin of Vengeance. Maybe Dragonborn for free resistance to a dragon type (if you know it ahead of time). Basically you want Nova damage, since Dragons are singular beasties with a big pool'o'HP
#7 Litania84it Oct 16, 2014 13:26:28	a couple ideas:   -nature clerics ability to grant elemental resistance is golden against a dragon -draconic sorcerers have advantage on any rolls in their dealings with dragons
#8 Corran21 Oct 16, 2014 13:29:59	Since the dragons have a huge attack bonus, you shouldn't invest a lot at the AC department, so instead of a shield grab a two handed weapon for the barbarian. The shield feat is nice due to the reaction to negate half damage on a successful save, but unles you have really good dex and con saves, it's not worth taking (can't remember a typical's breath AC but I think it is high enough, and it scales according to dragon's age). Halfling seems a good coice for a race since they have advantage on their fear checks. This build however has one major weakness, that if the dragon takes off, he is out of reach for you. Some tips on the above build. Halfling is not a good choice for a barbarian, not only for the stats bumps, but also because the advantage on saves will become redundant upon taking a certain barbarian level. Also, frenzy causes you and not the dragon to get one level of exhaustion, so it can very well fly above you and hit you with its reach and breath.
#9 Corran21 Oct 16, 2014 13:31:07	Litania84it wrote:
#10 Corran21 Oct 16, 2014 13:36:35	Timborama wrote:
(Reply to #4) 7he_professor	TheLastDunedain wrote:
#12 Corran21 Oct 16, 2014 14:18:40	7he_professor wrote:
#13 TheLastDunedain Oct 16, 2014 14:21:14	I've been thinking paladin of vengeance 12, wizard 8 could be really good. Would start paladin 5, then wizard 6 or 8, then the rest of paladin.
#14 Kavrek Oct 16, 2014 14:40:33	...And then there are Fiend and Great Old one warlocks with any of the pacts depending on the race and build   Best Races: Either Halfling (stout/lightfoot) or Dragonborn (color chosen can lead to a highly specialized dragon hunter)   Racial Features: Stout as above. Lightfoot for +1 cha and Naturally Stealthy. Dragonborn get draconic and a resistance, unfortunately if the resistance is relevant in the fight the dragonborn's breath weapon isn't.   Best Race for Pact: Dragonborn for Blade, Halfing for Chain or Tome   Best Class Features: Wisdom saving throw proficiency, Spells, charisma as main stat, skills, Patron and pact benefits, and invocations.   Fiend Patron Features: Dark One's Blessing (for starting dragon fights with extra HP, note that there is no duration beyond taking a long rest, kill an enemy in the morning, get temp HP, fight a dragon at night, lovely.) Dark One's Own luck (this combined with the Lucky feat will have you and the dragon pulling some real cheese on eachother as it uses its lair saves and actions, and you luck your way through it all.) Fiendish Resilience (Elemental or piercing/bludgeoning/slashing damage resist. By now the advantages to this patron are so good what more would you need...but then again...), Hurl Through Hell. Send a dragon to hell and ask how the trip was when it gets back. This feature may not have the best damage, but it is removal for a round to reposition yourself or cast a spell, it is also amazingly fun to role-play and a no save feature to boot!   The spells given for fiend aren't that great for hunting dragons, especially reds, with the exception of Fire Shield.   *Great old one makes a really great diplomancer and deceiver of dragons and can make thralls, that is good fun. Better spell list to some extent, but most of them wont do much against the more powerful dragons, so the spells would be best use to get allies or create allies willing or no. (sorry don't have time to flush this one out with as much detail.)   *Witch Sight Invocation allows you to see through the tricky shapechanger dragons. And Master of Myriad Forms allows for gills to hunt water breathing dragons in water. Both are accomplished by spells, but this class gets them at will.
#15 Corran21 Oct 16, 2014 14:46:56	Paladin/wizard is MAD, unlike paladin sorc. Also, if you take your paly to level 5, then take level 6 as well for aura of protection, it's too good not to have. If you multiclass to an arcane spellcaster, you ll get haste by level 11, so you won't be too sad to miss it as an oath spell. Still, in a fight against a dragon you need nova, and if you are already set to many levels of paladin, it wont be very good to be good with spells that deal damage and attacks, you just need to pick one and go all the way with it. Since you want nova damage, you need 2 fighter levels for action surge, and maybe 3 levels in sorc for more spell slots to smite and quickened spell (and some really good defense spells), although I would probably favor ranger over sorcerer. You don't have good range or fly, but if you play it right and leave a good nova (with action surge and lots of smites) for the end, you might be able to take it down before it flies away. If you fear that scenario a lot, grab sentinel feat, to hit it while it's leaving and is near death with an opportunity attack and smite. It's becoming very clear to me that the core of your character shoud be a vengeance paly (or a barbarian perhaps) and that you would also need at least 2 levels in fighter for action surge.   PS: I know that the druid can tank really well, but not sure about his damage output, I don't think it's great but I haven't looked at this class in detail.
#16 7he_professor Oct 18, 2014 11:32:59	I just ran the numbers with the following build, and it can solo CR 1-5 dragons with the following asusmptions: You know where the dragon is and can walk to it All rolls are average (10 on a D20, 2.5 on a D4, 3.5 on a D6, etc) Advantage grants an effective +5 bonus to attack rolls   Please note, this is strictly theorycraft, and is done in a vaccum.  Comments/suggestions welcome.     So far, the build is a Human (variant) Dragonic Bloodline Sorcerer with the following stats:   Str  8 Dex  16 Con  14 Int  8 Wis  10 Cha  16   Up until level 6, the choice of Dragon bloodline is irrelevant mechanically   Level one feat is: Lucky Background: either Sailor or Criminal or Urchin (for perception and stealth, using the floating Human bonus to fill the gap) Relevant Skill Proficiencies: Perception, Stealth, and maybe a knowledge or gather information type skill to know about dragons   HP: 9 +7/lvl AC: 16 Stealth: 15 Passive Perception: 12   Relevant Spells: Sleep, Chromatic Orb   CR1  There are two CR1 dragons: Brass and Copper Wyrmling.  The copper variety is superior in almost every regard, so I used its stat block to run my test. With a Passive Perception of 14, the dragon will not be able to see me coming.  I will enter its lair in Stealth and move to within 90 ft. of it.  I will cast Sleep which averages out to 22.5 HP vs its 22 HP, knocking it unconscious.  I will then spend a round moving right up to it, and on the following round cast Chromatic Orb at point blank range.  With Advantage on the attack roll, I can't miss, the spell criticals, and deals 27 damage, ending it
#17 Corran21 Oct 18, 2014 13:20:32	7he_professor wrote:
#18 TheLastDunedain Oct 18, 2014 14:52:03	Is there any way to make an animated skeleton's arrows count as magical to overcome resistance? (Other than the cheese of saying necrotic magic is animating the skeleton - and therefore arrow - so it already IS magical! )
(Reply to #17) 7he_professor	I figured as much. How does one calculate such a probability for a test like this?
(Reply to #9) Litania84it	Corran21 wrote:
#21 Corran21 Oct 18, 2014 17:45:29	Litania84it wrote:
#22 Danny_Montanny Oct 18, 2014 18:36:16	How hasn't Contagion not been mentioned?   Slimy Doom anyone? Disadvantage on its saves to eat up it's legendary resistance, and rounds of it being stunned. Throw Flesh Rot on there for good measure.
#23 HeirRaktus Oct 18, 2014 21:23:47	Be a Necromancer...   Show First, a 13 AC is not actually bad. A CR 17 monster has an AC of 19, so really AC isn't some huge thing that's only going to get bigger and bigger. Looking at CR 5 monsters, they range from 9 AC to 17 AC, typically around 14. Additionally, 18 HP isn't that bad, either - although it's still hardly good. I had assumed that was fodder; in actuality, only one of the CR 5 monsters can do 18 damage in a hit - a hill giant, who can do it twice a round. Most CR 5 monsters do more like 14, which will typically take two hits. Now, every single one of these monsters can make at least two hits per round, but that's still an entire round wasted for one renewable skeleton. Also, the +4 to hit (which never changes) isn't terrible. Granted: every CR 5 monster has about +7 or 8 to hit, but the average AC is still around 14, giving our skeletons about a 50/50 shot to hit. However, a skeleton doing 8 damage on a hit is still pretty darn low. Most CR 5 monsters have 100 HP (84-126), and more importantly, resistance to non-magical weapons. (Amazingly, dragons don't have this.) So even 4 skeletons - our max at level 5 - will be doing an average of 16 damage if they all hit, and since they have about a 50/50 shot, that's about 8 damage per round, or 16 if the creature doesn't have resistance to non-magical weapons. Now, that's still pretty amazing given that it is a bonus action, but keep in mind these 4 skeletons cost you one 3rd level spell (and a few days of prep time). Casting a 3rd level spell that does about 16 damage as a bonus action feels... about right, actually. So let's fast-forward to level 16, given the example above. According to the online supplement, the Adult Blue has an AC of 19 and 225 HP. At this point our skeletons have 29 HP and attack at +4 for 5+5 = 10 damage. Attacking an AC 19 means we'll hit about 30% of the time, doing 10 damage, so we'll call that 3 average. 225 / 3 is 75, so you would need 75 skeletons to kill the Adult Blue in one round, on average. (I have ignored crits for this equation cause it just makes things harder; you can assume you'd need a few less thanks to crits but it's basically the same.) And as Jack said, this is within possibility for a 16th level necromancer (although my calculations say you can get as high as 82 skeletons with a 16th level wizard, all total, so it's basically almost 100% of your 3rd level and above spell slots). HOWEVER, this is assuming that you were able to fit 75 skeletons into the space where the blue was, OR that it was dumb enough to let them all get within 80 feet (especially since its lightning attack's range is 90, AND it can use a legendary action after the first skeleton's turn to move another 40 feet away, causing the rest of the horde to attack with disadvantage and effectively making them only hit on crits). It would also require days and days of prep time, not to mention all the other practical considerations, and basically all of the wizard's spell slots. If a party basically had an unaware threat they could prepare for days to defeat, I would be willing to bet 75 skeletons is just one of many ways they could figure out how to do it very efficiently. That said: the bigger point is that you COULD do it, you could do it ALONE, and that your ability to do tons of damage with a jillion little guys is actually practical - all fair points. You're basically enabling the use of all your spell slots in one action, potentially.
(Reply to #22) FrogReaver	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #16) FrogReaver	7he_professor wrote:
#26 BRJN Oct 19, 2014 11:26:38	Get a longbow (proficiency NOT required to use anymore) and take shots as the dragon flies in/out to get you.  Every little bit of HP damage helps.  (do not do this until after preparation of spells &c).   Also, a high-CHR build can persuade people to become your allies for this one event, to remove the Dragon from their list of problems in life.  Give the Dragon lots of targets who are all bothering him, not just you alone for him to concentrate on.  Give them all longbows, too.    If you have time, train everybody in anti-Dragon tactics beforehand (polearm-wielding infantry protect the longbowmen and vice versa).   If you have Elves along, you won't need to train them with the longbows; if you can get Gnomes to help, ballistas throwing chunks of logs or quarried boulders would be a good idea.    The old Book of Adventures (v3.5) suggested casting shrink on iron pillars and using them as crossbow bolts for something like 8d6 of bludgeoning damage.  Trees would work too (CA redwoods or Cedars of Lebanon, anyone?).  Do the same with boulders (natural or quarried) and use them as arrowheads.  You are after all doing an epic deed, you may as well go for the gusto !
(Reply to #25) 7he_professor	FrogReaver wrote:
#28 Yunru Oct 20, 2014 10:03:09	The Monk (4 Elements) has the single highest Nova damage of any class ever. Stun them then pump ALL your remaining Ki into a Water Whip.
#29 TheLastDunedain Oct 20, 2014 10:08:38	That's not quite true. There are some multiclass builds that nova higher. Looking at the True Assassin Handbook, there are some builds in there that could one shot anything short of an ancient red dragon.
#30 Yunru Oct 20, 2014 10:14:57	More than xD10, where x is your Ki?
(Reply to #28) 7he_professor	Yunru wrote:
#32 Yunru Oct 20, 2014 10:24:58	Eeeeeh, okay? You've your bog-standard Attack+Water Whip/Martial Arts (when out of Ki). Stunning Strike just makes it more reliable since a Stunned creature auto-fails Str and Dex saving throws. Alternatively a lvl17 Open Fist Monk has the only Save-Or-Die effect in the game, and it's cheap on Ki too.
(Reply to #30) TheLastDunedain	Yunru wrote:
#34 Lawolf Oct 20, 2014 11:45:36	Yunru wrote:
#35 Yunru Oct 20, 2014 11:52:50	They don't get to save: they're Stunned. And it's 110 from the bonus action. I guess a high-dex, high-con foe could succeed at both saves, but there are very few (if any) creatures that match that criteria.
#36 Lawolf Oct 20, 2014 13:15:34	Yunru wrote: