Inspiring leader vs healer - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 FrogReaver Jun 13, 2015 23:03:40	Inspiring leader: gives you and your allys temp hp which makes them harder be KO'ed during a fight Healer: This is a great between combat heal. It can also pick up 0 hp allies for the cost of your action. It can also be used to heal in combat for the price of an action. At level 1 Inspiring leader will likely give +3 temp hp. Healer can heal an average of 8.5 hp. Provides 35.2% of the hp that healer will. At level 20 inspiring leader will likely give +22 temp hp. Healer can heal 24 + 1d6 = 27.5 hp. Provides 80% of the hp that healer will. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Some things to consider. 1. Going into a battle with more total hp is better than being required to use your actions during the fight for healing. This is because having a higher hp pool works better than trying to restore a lower hp pool. 2. Healing can often overheal your maximum hp which means you are actually losing out on the total amount of healing. 3. If you try to wait till you won't overheal a PC then he will be significantly easier to kill until you do. 4. Inspriing leader doesn't work as well with other PC's temp hp granting abilities and spells. Level 1: Healer is very likely to overheal an ally or the ally is likely to be very easy to kill if you don't risk over healing the ally. Inspiring leader makes it much less likely that you or an ally will be KO'ed in a fight Level 20: Healer only provides a little more hp. Inspring leader is likely much better at this level. Personally these considerations means inspring leader is actually a better feat than healer even for non-cha primary classes (as long as they can get about 14 cha)
#2 Ashrym Jun 13, 2015 23:34:07	The overheal isn't that bad because it's still likely healing more than inspiring leader prevents. The overheal doesn't matter if the target is healed 5 points and overheals 3 because 5 is still more than inspiring leader. Level 1 doesn't last long anyway and there are levels 2 and 3 where overheal chance drops before another feat option becomes available, usually 8th or 12th level as ability scores often take priority. Overheal isn't much of an issue.
(Reply to #2) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
#4 Ashrym Jun 14, 2015 0:15:42	Disagree. Not all targets are 14 CON wizards. Some are 20 hp fighters at 2nd level. Most classes use d8's or better so have 17 hp at 2nd level when the healer feat averages 9.5 so good at just under half hit points and more likely lower. It's still much more than inspiring leader at those levels with or without the overheal.
#5 FrogReaver Jun 14, 2015 0:40:52	Let's look over 2 encounters. In each encounter the wizard gets hit for 1d6+2 damage. Inspriing leader 3 temp hp and 8 hp. You will have between 3-8 hp left. The Healer wizard will have between 0-5 hp left. This wizard has a 1/6 chance he just died. ------------------------------------------------------------ After the combat the healer wizard will use his feat and heal. He will have 1-5 hp + 1d6+5 hp = There's a very high chance he goes back to full hp. So I have the inspring leader wizard with 3-8 hp I have the other wizard with 8hp and healer. Let's look at being hit by a weaker monster this next batte. The monster will do 1d4 damage. this gives the monster a 1/4 chance to kill the first wizard whose hp was 4 and a 2/4 chance to kill him if his hp was 3. There was a 1/6 chance for 3 hp and a 1/6 chance for 4 hp. That means 1/61/4 + 1/62/4 = 1/24 + 2/24 = 3/28 = 1/8 chance the inspirinig leader wizard is killed. There is 0% chance this monster kills the other wizard ------------------------------------------------------------- So in this example the healer feat wizard dies 1/6 of the time over these 2 combats and the inspiring leader dies 1/8 of the time over these 2 combats. Different scenarios can yield drastically different results. But the point is that the healer feat restored more hp than inspiring leader provided temp hp and yet the inspiring leader wizard was more likely to live and live longer in this scenario than the healer wizard.
(Reply to #4) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #4) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #5) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #8) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
#10 Veleria Jun 14, 2015 1:00:30	I don't think the answer can be solved with simple mathematics. In a dynamic game like dungeons and dragons The needs of the players will change as the day progresses. You may find template points more valuable at the beginning of the day and healing more valuable at the end. Ideally your party can work together and have access to both
#11 FrogReaver Jun 14, 2015 1:05:39	Just to reiterate. My premise began with the notion that temp hp were alot better than an equivalent amount of healing. I don't think this point can be argued with. The question is. How much better to prevent being KO'ed are temp hp vs healing. In other words how much healing is needed for every temp hp to be roughly equal in strength. The answer to this question depends on whether you are more concerned with dying from a few lucky hits in a single battle or 2 or if you are more concerned with dying due to running out of hp during a grueling adventuring day. Early levels I'm not as concerned with having my hp whittled down throughout the day as I am about a few unlucky hits in a battle leading to me being KO'ed. It's apparent the healer feat protects more from that. If your concern is that your hp pool will just not last the whole adventuring day then healer is much much better. Personally, I'm more concerned with a few unlucky hits killing me in a single battle than I am of running out of hp for the whole adventuring day. As such Inspiring leader does more for that and also gives extra hp for the adventuring day as well.
(Reply to #10) FrogReaver	Veleria wrote:
(Reply to #9) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #13) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #14) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #15) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
#17 Mistwell Jun 14, 2015 10:40:41	The big issue here is that at many tables apparently, you can string short rests together. IE, you heal someone using the heaing feat, they rest an hour, you heal someone using the healing feat, they rest an hour, you heal someone using the healing feat. So for 2 hours rest, they get three uses of the feat. You can't do that with inspiring leader.
#18 Mazzy Jun 14, 2015 12:46:39	Inspiring Leader: Pros: Takes you over your max so is of greater value before a brutal encounter than healer. Powerful with low HP companion creatures like familiars and ranger beast companions should the DM allow it. Cons: Not usuable during combat should someone drop. Stat dependant. Does not stack with certain class abilities and spells (Rally, False Life, etc.) Healer: Pros: Heals more on average than Inspiring Leader prevents. Option to use during combat to revive fallen party members should you not have a PC with healing word. Short rest stacking can yeild generous heals should the DM allow it. Can be used on certain summoned creatures, like undead, that normal heals cannot be. Cons: High risk of over-healing. Costs gold and equipment space. Both have generally tested well from what I have seen. Honestly I think it mostly comes down to the one that matches the flavor of the PC. Are you a doctor or a warlord?
(Reply to #16) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
#20 mellored Jun 14, 2015 20:59:04	you missed a few points. 1: healer is effectivly lost if used after the last battle of the day. going to sleep with 1 HP is the same as going to sleep with 20. either way you wake up full. 2: healer is based on target level. inspiring leader is based on users level. you can give a pesant 25 THP. 3: healer has the death rule bonus. having 1 HP, taking 11 damage, then heal for 15 = 25 hp. oh, and stringing short rests together is called a long rest. 4: min Cha for inspiring leader, which could mean putting points into a dump stat. overall i agree the edge goes to inspiring leader, but there pretty close. and healer might win at low levels.
(Reply to #19) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #20) FrogReaver	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #21) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
#24 mellored Jun 15, 2015 5:26:38	Ashrym wrote:
#25 mellored Jun 15, 2015 5:32:16	Really it comes down to... Unconditional THP. vs Conditional HP.
(Reply to #24) FrogReaver	mellored wrote:
#27 Mistwell Jun 15, 2015 8:31:29	mellored wrote:
#28 FrogReaver Jun 15, 2015 8:33:14	Let's look at higher damage attacks 1d12 + 3. The Inspiring leader has a 3/12 chance of being KO'ed in one hit. (1/4) The healer has a 6/12 chances of being KO'ed in one hit. (1/2) *Keep in mind I'm having the healer feat used just out of combat because it takes an action in combat to heal and this is for simplicity to keep both characters on the same attack and number of attacks schedule. If you want to bring in mid combat healing with healer into the mix then I expect your numbers and calculators to be as detailed as mine. I'm not going to do it for you and I won't accept less. Also before I continue on with the math you do realize how detrimental it is to both you and the party to go down on the first hit you take? Having a 50% chance to do that in this situation is rough. Let's look at what would happen if I took another hit. Inspiring Leader is betwee 1 and 10 hp exactly 3/4 of the time. Guaranteed KO on 1, 2, 3 and 4 hps 11/12 KO chance on 5 hp 10/12 KO chance on 6 hp 9/12 KO chance on 7 hp 8/12 KO chance on 8 hp 7/12 KO chance on 9 hp 6/12 KO chance on 10 hp This translates into 3/4 1/10 * ( 1 + 1 + 1 +1 + 11/12 + 10/12 + ... + 6/12) = 61.875% chacne of being KO'ed if you wansn't on the first attack. This equals 86.875% chance of being KO'ed in one of those two attacks. Let's also look at what would happen if the healer feat character took another hit without healing. 1- 6 left exactly 50% of the time. 1, 2, 3, 4 hp left is guaranteed KO on next attack. 11/12 chance of being KO'ed on 5 hp. 10/12 chance of being KO'ed on 6 hp. = 1/2 * 1/6 * (1+1+1+1 + 11/12 + 10/12) = 47.9167% chance of being KO'ed. This comes out to a 97.9167% chance of being KO'ed in one of those 2 attacks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now let's look at what would happen if that combat ended and a new combat began. I'll give the inspiring leader a 100% chance to be back at max hp for ease of calculation even though his actual chance is slightly lower than this. He now has a another 50% chance of being KO'ed in the 2nd combat. This translates into a 75% chance of being KO'ed over those 2 encounters assuming the 2 attacks hit. The Inspiring leader has a combined 86.875% chance over those two encounters.
#29 mellored Jun 15, 2015 10:03:41	Mistwell wrote:
#30 Mistwell Jun 15, 2015 10:08:51	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #24) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #26) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #28) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
#34 mellored Jun 15, 2015 10:40:34	Ashrym wrote:
#35 mellored Jun 15, 2015 10:42:07	Mistwell wrote:
(Reply to #29) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #34) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#38 Noctaem Jun 15, 2015 11:01:59	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #35) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #38) Ashrym	Noctaem wrote:
#41 Noctaem Jun 15, 2015 11:19:48	Ashrym wrote:
#42 mellored Jun 15, 2015 11:23:21	Ashrym wrote:
#43 Clutchbone Jun 15, 2015 12:21:57	I guess I should point out that Healer works very well with a Thief's Fast Hands ability (heal with a bonus action), making in-combat healing more viable. Also, party-wide temp HP are less valuable if 1/2 or 3/4 of the party never get hit at all.
#44 mellored Jun 15, 2015 12:21:22	Clutchbone wrote:
(Reply to #44) Clutchbone	mellored wrote:
#46 mellored Jun 15, 2015 12:26:33	Clutchbone wrote:
#47 mellored Jun 15, 2015 12:28:34	Hmmm... Giving your faimilar 25 THP is rather useful. And nothing says you can't inspire skeletons.... Conjure pixies would work too, but that eats into your summon time.
(Reply to #46) Clutchbone	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #41) Ashrym	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #42) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #47) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#52 crimfan07 Jun 15, 2015 19:13:58	Inspiring Leader is also useful for a character like a Sorcerer, who might not ordinarily be a healer type but for some reason has the ability to help allies.
#53 FrogReaver Jun 16, 2015 0:21:55	A few observations: Healer actually has worse in combat performance the more allies that are present. It takes an action and your move and possibly an OA to use healer on any ally that needs it. If all party members end up needing healed during combat that's 4 actions being used in that combat. That's potentially 2-3 OA's on you. The ability of healer to be used in combat for healing is looking less and less generally useful to me. That is why I chose to relegate healer to being used outside combat so these tradeoffs wouldn't come into play. If someone actually wants to bring up the fact that healer can be used during combat too then let them find some way to incorporate it's drawbacks into that analysis. Given these drawbacks I think it's apparent to most why I didn't include mid combat healing of the healer feat in any of my comparisons. I think it's obvious why the healer feat should be relegated to out of comebat healing except in the most opportune situations. Please remember I'm fine with seeing someone claim that the healer feat can be used in combat but I'll let them figure out the math for it's drawbacks in that comparison. Until those drawbacks of using it during combat are at least admitted and an honest attempt to include them into the comparison is made I believe my option of not including the ability of the healer feat to heal during combat into the comparison is actually the best method we have for comparing the feats right now.
(Reply to #53) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
#55 mellored Jun 16, 2015 9:36:39	Having less hit points available from inspiring leader also results in deaths because of running out of hit points from damage more often. Because there is a huge gap in the hit points between the 2 at lower levels after looking at overhealing is considered. Running out of hit points between short rests is more common than running out of hit points in the first hit.Those extra 30 plus hp over the day matter.
#56 JackOfAllTirades Jun 16, 2015 9:18:38	Some adventuring groups would have no problem getting both feats. After all, the benefits of Healer and Inspiring Leader will stack.
(Reply to #54) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #55) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #57) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
#60 mellored Jun 17, 2015 5:47:28	Ashrym wrote:
#61 Noctaem Jun 17, 2015 6:23:25	mellored wrote:
#62 Mistwell Jun 17, 2015 10:28:27	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #62) FrogReaver	Mistwell wrote:
(Reply to #62) FrogReaver	Mistwell wrote:
#65 mellored Jun 17, 2015 10:32:44	Mistwell wrote:
#66 Noctaem Jun 17, 2015 10:49:48	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #66) FrogReaver	Noctaem wrote:
(Reply to #60) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#69 Mistwell Jun 17, 2015 10:59:34	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #68) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
#71 Mistwell Jun 17, 2015 11:01:47	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #71) FrogReaver	Mistwell wrote:
(Reply to #69) FrogReaver	Mistwell wrote:
(Reply to #63) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #74) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
#76 Mistwell Jun 17, 2015 11:34:35	FrogReaver wrote:
#77 Mistwell Jun 17, 2015 11:45:22	FrogReaver wrote:
#78 FrogReaver Jun 17, 2015 11:47:57	FrogReaver wrote:
#79 mellored Jun 17, 2015 12:06:05	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #70) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
#81 mellored Jun 17, 2015 13:02:36	More HP is better then less HP More actions availible is better then less actions availible. HP sooner is better then HP later.
(Reply to #75) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #78) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #79) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #81) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#86 mellored Jun 17, 2015 13:30:40	Healer is more HP yes.
(Reply to #80) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
#88 mellored Jun 18, 2015 2:13:03	so we all agree that healer is better at 1, and inspiring leader is better at 20. what level are they equal?
(Reply to #88) FrogReaver	mellored wrote:
#90 mellored Jun 18, 2015 10:38:33	assuming 16 Cha... 3+level / 7.5 + level 1 = 0.47 4 = 0.61 8 = 0.71 12 = 0.77 16 = 0.81 19 = 0.83
(Reply to #90) FrogReaver	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #91) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

FrogReaver

Jun 13, 2015 23:03:40

Inspiring leader: gives you and your allys temp hp which makes them harder be KO'ed during a fight

Healer: This is a great between combat heal. It can also pick up 0 hp allies for the cost of your action. It can also be used to heal in combat for the price of an action.

At level 1 Inspiring leader will likely give +3 temp hp.

Healer can heal an average of 8.5 hp.

Provides 35.2% of the hp that healer will.

At level 20 inspiring leader will likely give +22 temp hp.

Healer can heal 24 + 1d6 = 27.5 hp.

Provides 80% of the hp that healer will.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Some things to consider.

1. Going into a battle with more total hp is better than being required to use your actions during the fight for healing. This is because having a higher hp pool works better than trying to restore a lower hp pool.

2. Healing can often overheal your maximum hp which means you are actually losing out on the total amount of healing.

3. If you try to wait till you won't overheal a PC then he will be significantly easier to kill until you do.

4. Inspriing leader doesn't work as well with other PC's temp hp granting abilities and spells.

Level 1: Healer is very likely to overheal an ally or the ally is likely to be very easy to kill if you don't risk over healing the ally.

Inspiring leader makes it much less likely that you or an ally will be KO'ed in a fight

Level 20: Healer only provides a little more hp.

Inspring leader is likely much better at this level.

Personally these considerations means inspring leader is actually a better feat than healer even for non-cha primary classes (as long as they can get about 14 cha)

Ashrym

Jun 13, 2015 23:34:07

The overheal isn't that bad because it's still likely healing more than inspiring leader prevents. The overheal doesn't matter if the target is healed 5 points and overheals 3 because 5 is still more than inspiring leader. Level 1 doesn't last long anyway and there are levels 2 and 3 where overheal chance drops before another feat option becomes available, usually 8th or 12th level as ability scores often take priority. Overheal isn't much of an issue.

(Reply to #2)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

Ashrym

Jun 14, 2015 0:15:42

Disagree. Not all targets are 14 CON wizards. Some are 20 hp fighters at 2nd level. Most classes use d8's or better so have 17 hp at 2nd level when the healer feat averages 9.5 so good at just under half hit points and more likely lower. It's still much more than inspiring leader at those levels with or without the overheal.

FrogReaver

Jun 14, 2015 0:40:52

Let's look over 2 encounters. In each encounter the wizard gets hit for 1d6+2 damage.

Inspriing leader 3 temp hp and 8 hp.

You will have between 3-8 hp left.

The Healer wizard will have between 0-5 hp left.

This wizard has a 1/6 chance he just died.

------------------------------------------------------------

After the combat the healer wizard will use his feat and heal.

He will have 1-5 hp + 1d6+5 hp = There's a very high chance he goes back to full hp.

So I have the inspring leader wizard with 3-8 hp

I have the other wizard with 8hp and healer.

Let's look at being hit by a weaker monster this next batte. The monster will do 1d4 damage.

this gives the monster a 1/4 chance to kill the first wizard whose hp was 4 and a 2/4 chance to kill him if his hp was 3. There was a 1/6 chance for 3 hp and a 1/6 chance for 4 hp. That means 1/6*1/4 + 1/6*2/4 = 1/24 + 2/24 = 3/28 = 1/8 chance the inspirinig leader wizard is killed.

There is 0% chance this monster kills the other wizard

-------------------------------------------------------------

So in this example the healer feat wizard dies 1/6 of the time over these 2 combats and the inspiring leader dies 1/8 of the time over these 2 combats.

Different scenarios can yield drastically different results. But the point is that the healer feat restored more hp than inspiring leader provided temp hp and yet the inspiring leader wizard was more likely to live and live longer in this scenario than the healer wizard.

(Reply to #4)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #4)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #5)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #8)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

#10

Veleria

Jun 14, 2015 1:00:30

I don't think the answer can be solved with simple mathematics. In a dynamic game like dungeons and dragons The needs of the players will change as the day progresses. You may find template points more valuable at the beginning of the day and healing more valuable at the end. Ideally your party can work together and have access to both

#11

FrogReaver

Jun 14, 2015 1:05:39

Just to reiterate. My premise began with the notion that temp hp were alot better than an equivalent amount of healing. I don't think this point can be argued with.

The question is. How much better to prevent being KO'ed are temp hp vs healing. In other words how much healing is needed for every temp hp to be roughly equal in strength. The answer to this question depends on whether you are more concerned with dying from a few lucky hits in a single battle or 2 or if you are more concerned with dying due to running out of hp during a grueling adventuring day.

Early levels I'm not as concerned with having my hp whittled down throughout the day as I am about a few unlucky hits in a battle leading to me being KO'ed. It's apparent the healer feat protects more from that. If your concern is that your hp pool will just not last the whole adventuring day then healer is much much better. Personally, I'm more concerned with a few unlucky hits killing me in a single battle than I am of running out of hp for the whole adventuring day. As such Inspiring leader does more for that and also gives extra hp for the adventuring day as well.

(Reply to #10)

FrogReaver

Veleria wrote:

(Reply to #9)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #13)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #14)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #15)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

#17

Mistwell

Jun 14, 2015 10:40:41

The big issue here is that at many tables apparently, you can string short rests together. IE, you heal someone using the heaing feat, they rest an hour, you heal someone using the healing feat, they rest an hour, you heal someone using the healing feat. So for 2 hours rest, they get three uses of the feat. You can't do that with inspiring leader.

#18

Mazzy

Jun 14, 2015 12:46:39

Inspiring Leader:

Pros: Takes you over your max so is of greater value before a brutal encounter than healer. Powerful with low HP companion creatures like familiars and ranger beast companions should the DM allow it.

Cons: Not usuable during combat should someone drop. Stat dependant. Does not stack with certain class abilities and spells (Rally, False Life, etc.)

Healer:

Pros: Heals more on average than Inspiring Leader prevents. Option to use during combat to revive fallen party members should you not have a PC with healing word. Short rest stacking can yeild generous heals should the DM allow it. Can be used on certain summoned creatures, like undead, that normal heals cannot be.

Cons: High risk of over-healing. Costs gold and equipment space.

Both have generally tested well from what I have seen. Honestly I think it mostly comes down to the one that matches the flavor of the PC. Are you a doctor or a warlord?

(Reply to #16)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

#20

mellored

Jun 14, 2015 20:59:04

you missed a few points.
1: healer is effectivly lost if used after the last battle of the day. going to sleep with 1 HP is the same as going to sleep with 20. either way you wake up full.
2: healer is based on target level. inspiring leader is based on users level. you can give a pesant 25 THP.
3: healer has the death rule bonus. having 1 HP, taking 11 damage, then heal for 15 = 25 hp.
oh, and stringing short rests together is called a long rest.
4: min Cha for inspiring leader, which could mean putting points into a dump stat.

overall i agree the edge goes to inspiring leader, but there pretty close. and healer might win at low levels.

(Reply to #19)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #20)

FrogReaver

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #21)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

#24

mellored

Jun 15, 2015 5:26:38

Ashrym wrote:

#25

mellored

Jun 15, 2015 5:32:16

Really it comes down to...

Unconditional THP.

Conditional HP.

(Reply to #24)

FrogReaver

mellored wrote:

#27

Mistwell

Jun 15, 2015 8:31:29

mellored wrote:

#28

FrogReaver

Jun 15, 2015 8:33:14

Let's look at higher damage attacks 1d12 + 3.

The Inspiring leader has a 3/12 chance of being KO'ed in one hit. (1/4)

The healer has a 6/12 chances of being KO'ed in one hit. (1/2)

**Keep in mind I'm having the healer feat used just out of combat because it takes an action in combat to heal and this is for simplicity to keep both characters on the same attack and number of attacks schedule. If you want to bring in mid combat healing with healer into the mix then I expect your numbers and calculators to be as detailed as mine. I'm not going to do it for you and I won't accept less.

Also before I continue on with the math you do realize how detrimental it is to both you and the party to go down on the first hit you take? Having a 50% chance to do that in this situation is rough.

Let's look at what would happen if I took another hit.

Inspiring Leader is betwee 1 and 10 hp exactly 3/4 of the time.

Guaranteed KO on 1, 2, 3 and 4 hps

11/12 KO chance on 5 hp

10/12 KO chance on 6 hp

9/12 KO chance on 7 hp

8/12 KO chance on 8 hp

7/12 KO chance on 9 hp

6/12 KO chance on 10 hp

This translates into 3/4 * 1/10 * ( 1 + 1 + 1 +1 + 11/12 + 10/12 + ... + 6/12) = 61.875% chacne of being KO'ed if you wansn't on the first attack. This equals 86.875% chance of being KO'ed in one of those two attacks.

Let's also look at what would happen if the healer feat character took another hit without healing.

1- 6 left exactly 50% of the time.

1, 2, 3, 4 hp left is guaranteed KO on next attack.

11/12 chance of being KO'ed on 5 hp.

10/12 chance of being KO'ed on 6 hp.

= 1/2 * 1/6 * (1+1+1+1 + 11/12 + 10/12) = 47.9167% chance of being KO'ed. This comes out to a 97.9167% chance of being KO'ed in one of those 2 attacks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at what would happen if that combat ended and a new combat began.

I'll give the inspiring leader a 100% chance to be back at max hp for ease of calculation even though his actual chance is slightly lower than this.

He now has a another 50% chance of being KO'ed in the 2nd combat. This translates into a 75% chance of being KO'ed over those 2 encounters assuming the 2 attacks hit.

The Inspiring leader has a combined 86.875% chance over those two encounters.

#29

mellored

Jun 15, 2015 10:03:41

Mistwell wrote:

#30

Mistwell

Jun 15, 2015 10:08:51

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #24)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #26)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #28)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

#34

mellored

Jun 15, 2015 10:40:34

Ashrym wrote:

#35

mellored

Jun 15, 2015 10:42:07

Mistwell wrote:

(Reply to #29)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #34)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

#38

Noctaem

Jun 15, 2015 11:01:59

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #35)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #38)

Ashrym

Noctaem wrote:

#41

Noctaem

Jun 15, 2015 11:19:48

Ashrym wrote:

#42

mellored

Jun 15, 2015 11:23:21

Ashrym wrote:

#43

Clutchbone

Jun 15, 2015 12:21:57

I guess I should point out that Healer works very well with a Thief's Fast Hands ability (heal with a bonus action), making in-combat healing more viable.

Also, party-wide temp HP are less valuable if 1/2 or 3/4 of the party never get hit at all.

#44

mellored

Jun 15, 2015 12:21:22

Clutchbone wrote:

(Reply to #44)

Clutchbone

mellored wrote:

#46

mellored

Jun 15, 2015 12:26:33

Clutchbone wrote:

#47

mellored

Jun 15, 2015 12:28:34

Hmmm...

Giving your faimilar 25 THP is rather useful.

And nothing says you can't inspire skeletons....

Conjure pixies would work too, but that eats into your summon time.

(Reply to #46)

Clutchbone

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #41)

Ashrym

Noctaem wrote:

(Reply to #42)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #47)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

#52

crimfan07

Jun 15, 2015 19:13:58

Inspiring Leader is also useful for a character like a Sorcerer, who might not ordinarily be a healer type but for some reason has the ability to help allies.

#53

FrogReaver

Jun 16, 2015 0:21:55

A few observations:

Healer actually has worse in combat performance the more allies that are present. It takes an action and your move and possibly an OA to use healer on any ally that needs it. If all party members end up needing healed during combat that's 4 actions being used in that combat. That's potentially 2-3 OA's on you. The ability of healer to be used in combat for healing is looking less and less generally useful to me.

That is why I chose to relegate healer to being used outside combat so these tradeoffs wouldn't come into play. If someone actually wants to bring up the fact that healer can be used during combat too then let them find some way to incorporate it's drawbacks into that analysis. Given these drawbacks I think it's apparent to most why I didn't include mid combat healing of the healer feat in any of my comparisons. I think it's obvious why the healer feat should be relegated to out of comebat healing except in the most opportune situations.

Please remember I'm fine with seeing someone claim that the healer feat can be used in combat but I'll let them figure out the math for it's drawbacks in that comparison. Until those drawbacks of using it during combat are at least admitted and an honest attempt to include them into the comparison is made I believe my option of not including the ability of the healer feat to heal during combat into the comparison is actually the best method we have for comparing the feats right now.

(Reply to #53)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

#55

mellored

Jun 16, 2015 9:36:39

Having less hit points available from inspiring leader also results in deaths because of running out of hit points from damage more often. Because there is a huge gap in the hit points between the 2 at lower levels after looking at overhealing is considered. Running out of hit points between short rests is more common than running out of hit points in the first hit.Those extra 30 plus hp over the day matter.

#56

JackOfAllTirades

Jun 16, 2015 9:18:38

Some adventuring groups would have no problem getting both feats.

After all, the benefits of Healer and Inspiring Leader will stack.

(Reply to #54)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #55)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #57)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

#60

mellored

Jun 17, 2015 5:47:28

Ashrym wrote:

#61

Noctaem

Jun 17, 2015 6:23:25

mellored wrote:

#62

Mistwell

Jun 17, 2015 10:28:27

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #62)

FrogReaver

Mistwell wrote:

(Reply to #62)

FrogReaver

Mistwell wrote:

#65

mellored

Jun 17, 2015 10:32:44

Mistwell wrote:

#66

Noctaem

Jun 17, 2015 10:49:48

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #66)

FrogReaver

Noctaem wrote:

(Reply to #60)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

#69

Mistwell

Jun 17, 2015 10:59:34

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #68)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

#71

Mistwell

Jun 17, 2015 11:01:47

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #71)

FrogReaver

Mistwell wrote:

(Reply to #69)

FrogReaver

Mistwell wrote:

(Reply to #63)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #74)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

#76

Mistwell

Jun 17, 2015 11:34:35

FrogReaver wrote:

#77

Mistwell

Jun 17, 2015 11:45:22

FrogReaver wrote:

#78

FrogReaver

Jun 17, 2015 11:47:57

FrogReaver wrote:

#79

mellored

Jun 17, 2015 12:06:05

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #70)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

#81

mellored

Jun 17, 2015 13:02:36

More HP is better then less HP

More actions availible is better then less actions availible.

HP sooner is better then HP later.

(Reply to #75)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #78)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote:

(Reply to #79)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #81)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

#86

mellored

Jun 17, 2015 13:30:40

Healer is more HP yes.

(Reply to #80)

FrogReaver

Ashrym wrote:

#88

mellored

Jun 18, 2015 2:13:03

so we all agree that healer is better at 1, and inspiring leader is better at 20.
what level are they equal?

(Reply to #88)

FrogReaver

mellored wrote:

#90

mellored

Jun 18, 2015 10:38:33

assuming 16 Cha...

3+level / 7.5 + level

1 = 0.47

4 = 0.61

8 = 0.71

12 = 0.77

16 = 0.81

19 = 0.83

(Reply to #90)

FrogReaver

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #91)

Ashrym

FrogReaver wrote: