Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 KaptainKrunch Jul 02, 2015 11:36:04	I'm kind of mulling over the possibilities here, so I thought I'd make it a discussion.   A lot of the issues with multiclassing in 3.5e have been removed, and multiclassing by itself as a caster isn't a total trap anymore.   Here are a few examples 1. Your caster level was based on the class associated with the spell list you got the spell from - In 5e there are no spell stats based on class level with the exception of Cantrips, and that's entirely based on character level. 2. Your spell slots were based on the classes you multiclassed into - No longer the case. All full casters share spell slots evenly. 3. Spell DCs used to be based on the spell level of the spell being cast - Now spell DCs are flat accross all spell levels. 4. Spell Power used to be based on class level - Now it's based on slot scaling.     So really the only things you miss out on with multiclassing are class features and access to the knowledge higher level spells - which in a lot of cases are a matter of differences in kind rather than necessarily differences in scale (a few exceptions which I'll discuss in a later post.)      But can you make dual class build (like the old Mystic Theurge) in which the feature is versatility and still be at least equal in power to a straight classed caster?   The knee jerk reaction based on past experience with previous editions is to simply say "no", but I'm wanting to experiment a little more before I jump to that conclusion.     In order for there to be an argument here we also need to consider the process of leveling up. What would our "Mystic Theurge" look like at level 3, 5, 8, 10, 14, 17, and 20? And how would these cutoffs compare to a straight class? Would the advantages equal the disadvantages?     To avoid bloating this first post with my thoughts so far, I'll leave it at this premise. What do you guys think?
#2 KaptainKrunch Jul 02, 2015 11:40:13	Reserved for detailed thoughts.
#3 Sorsohka Jul 02, 2015 12:37:20	assuming AL character creation rule, a 27 point buy system:   will require 15 int Intellect and 15 in Wis (15 in Charisma could be an option if you want to mystic thurge sorcerer/cleric) leaving you 9 point allowing you to buy a 14 and a 10   The only races allowing a stat bonus in both Int and Wis are human and half elf. both good race allowing various builds.   then the spell per day of the caster will be the same no matter how he split he's spell between divine and arcane level. Cleric and Druid can be good divine caster for this build depending on exactly what you want to build (traditionally mystic theurge would be cleric, but druid is also possible) for arcane caster, Bard, Wizard and sorcerer are the 3 possible choice. Warlock is an arcane caster but there pact magic combine differently with "normal" caster and require a completly different analysis, and I will not include it in this post. Mystic theurge gish would be possible by multiclassing a paladin/Str eldritch knight or bard/ranger, arcane trickster/ranger, Dex Eldritch knight/ranger.   The difference is the spell allowed to prepare (and write in the spellbook)   So what are the option:   1divine/19 arcane: (vice versa) give acces to cleric spell level 1 including bless, cure wound, healing word, and they can be upcast all the way to level 9 if needed.   3divine/17arcane: (vice versa) give acces to cleric spell level 2 and still able to upcast them all the way to level 9   9divine/11arcane: (vice versa) give acces to cleric spell level 5, wizard spell level 6 and able to upcast them to level 9   10 divine/10 arcane: Giving both cleric and wizard spell level 5 and able to upcast them all the way to level 9   other combinaison are possible, In my opinion if you focus on the level of spell accessible you want to use those combinaison: 3/17 - 5/15 - 7/13 - 9/11 since those level offer the optimized spell level allowed to be prepared.   But remember that for full spellcaster the level where you obtain a new spell level, you usually don't gain anything interesting as a feature (access to a new spell level being a new spell feature by itself) So if you are interested in the class feature, and it do not bother you to loose a spell level then you might want to choose a different level combinaison.
#4 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jul 02, 2015 12:49:32	In general, the big problem is that Mystic Theurges don't have access to higher level spells at the times that you might really need them. Spell slots aren't the same thing. Not by a long shot. 2nd level spells don't have a Fireball equivalent. 3rd level spells don't have an Animate Objects equivalent. 4th level spells don't have a Mass Suggestion equivalent. 5th level spells don't have a Wish equivalent. And so on... In any case, I'd highly favor Warlock 11/Cleric 9 if you're going to do it near the 50/50 mark. That trades 2-5th, 2-6th, 2-7th, 1-8th, and 1-9th for 9-5th and 1-6th level spell assuming two short rests. It also gives you Eldritch Blast and other invocations.
#5 Treantmonklvl20 Jul 02, 2015 12:55:42	The primary draw of the Mystic Theurge in previous editions is that you could get more spell slots with them than a straight caster (although those slots would be lower level)   This is no longer the case, a Cleric/Wizard (or similar) will have the same slots as a pure Cleric or Wizard.  The primary difference is that you won't have the higher spell levels.   You can use those lower level spells with higher level slots (often for improved effect), though the general consensus is that a lower level spell using a higher level slot is still not as good as just using a higher level spell.   You will be compiling lowever level class abilities but missing out on the higher level abilities.  Overall (at least if we are looking at Cleric and Wizard) as long as you are careful with your choice of Arcane Tradition and Domain, I'm not sure this is a bad thing.  (Abjuration and Divination would be the Arcane Traditions of choice in this case, Tempest and Knowledge would jump out at me as particularly good choices for Domain)   Of course you will have a draw on both Int and wis, though this is pretty easily avoidable by throwing a 13 into Wisdom and just ensuring your Cleric spells do not provide a saving throw (or the reverse - either is fine).   In summary - I think the mix works better than ever before, though I still think you will be somewhat wanting compared to a straight Wizard or Cleric.   I will note that Cleric 1/Wizard X is a very powerful mix IMO, and probably even better than a straight Wizard.
#6 Ashrym Jul 02, 2015 13:20:27	Higher level abilities are a concern in any case. A cleric 3 / wizard 17 opens up a ton of spell options and isn't bad but still loses a capstone that's pretty good, an ASI, and spell mastery on top of slower progression. MC still has downsides. A lore bard can already match spell lists rather well and would also be competition for the concept.
#7 awaken_D_M_golem Jul 07, 2015 12:36:17	Access to a Spell List, is near MT-ish if you also have legit Crafting available. Selling 1 Rare consumeable, allows crafting 2 Uncommon repeaters.   Warlock for the Slot multiplying. Rituals for even more.  TomeLock gets both and crosses class lines. Level 3 = Tome'Lock ... hands down.   Level 5 You could go Tome'Lock 3 / Cleric 1 / Druid 1 and presume maximal access with some crafting. Tome'Lock 5 with just a smidge of scroll and spells cast services ala PHB, is better in real game.   Between 6 and 17 is idk wtf, and needs a hard hashing.   Lore Bard 18 in service to lots of Crafting. Wizard 17 with Wish, but the Wiz Conj 2 trick is only a minor cost advantage, during late game. Tome'Lock 11 with: Cleric 9 > Druid 9 > Sorc FS 9   Tome'Lock 11 with Wiz Div 9 does ~something even if it hasn't been figured out quite yet. Certainly the best Div spooger, but not much else.   maybe Sorc FS 17 / Tome'Lock 3 in no particular order; it's at least a known build that does useful things.