| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1NirvanSNov 07, 2014 19:48:08 |
Comparing the sorcerer, warlock, and wizard it seems that the sorcerer is not that great. The wizard is still the best because if access to numerous spells, specialization, ability to have more spells available to cast due to using you intelligence modifier + spell level, arcane recovery, and signature spells.
Warlocks get special abilities based on the God and the eldritch invocations. But are limited on spells available.
Sorcerers have limited spells, if pick wild origin, you see if DM lets you roll on wild surge table and the see what happens. I know they get spell points, but to me it seems weak.
If someone has a different view, please tell me.
Thank you |
| #2Jay_Ibero_911Nov 07, 2014 19:53:35 | Sorcerers have the best nova potential with Quicken and Twin metamagics, and especially with twin they get the ability to affect more targets with some spells then anyone else. |
| #3NirvanSNov 07, 2014 20:07:51 | Sorry, don't understand nova potential.
But the number of spells are limited. It doesn't make sense that if they have innate magic ability, why they are penalized and can't change their spells until they level up. So at level 20 the spells they have are fixed permanently. |
| #4Jay_Ibero_911Nov 07, 2014 20:17:25 |
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| #5melloredNov 07, 2014 20:19:03 | for example, a sorcerer can cast twinned disintigrate, getting twice as much damage in half the time, and half the slots. Very power, but short lived and narrower scope. |
| #6FrogReaverNov 07, 2014 20:24:45 | Sorcerers get con save proficiency.
They get enough spells to get a few good buff and debuff and damage spells. Not sure why selection matters since the generally useful spells are the most used anyway.
Sorceror points are one of the strongest caster mechanics in the game. Twin spell haste on two allies. Make it easier for your save or suck spell to hit....
Imo I think sorcerer is better than wizard. |
| #7NirvanSNov 07, 2014 20:40:21 | But that is if you have haste. I guess I like the ability to change spells based on campaign/need. IE sorcerer has mainly for based spells but is in an adventure where the enemy is resistant or immune. You have no option to rest and change your repertoire. I think that you have only 15 known spells, but have 22 spell slots. If one has innate magic within, more known spells should be permitted |
| #8Jay_Ibero_911Nov 07, 2014 20:48:00 |
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| #9DaveDashNov 07, 2014 21:10:48 | Wizards are fricken amazing to have along in an adventure due to their massive spell selection and ritual casting. |
| #10ZardnaarNov 08, 2014 0:57:50 | Sorcerer is about the only way in the game to cast multiuple buff spells and to cast 2 level 9 spells per day. They can twin foresight for example, or wish/meteor swarm etc. They are also proficient in con saves.
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| (Reply to #10)1eejit |
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| (Reply to #8)NirvanS |
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| #13NirvanSNov 08, 2014 2:11:46 | Khelben "Blackstaff" are great wizards. All the most powerful spellcasters of FR are wizards |
| (Reply to #3)SilentSin |
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| (Reply to #14)NirvanS |
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| #16NirvanSNov 08, 2014 4:13:06 | A bars knows 22 spells vs 15 for sorcerer/warlock |
| (Reply to #8)NirvanS |
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| #18NirvanSNov 08, 2014 5:03:41 | I have yet to be convinced how WoTC did not ruin the sorcerer's potential by limiting spells |
| (Reply to #13)TheMilkyBarKid |
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| (Reply to #18)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #21YunruNov 08, 2014 5:39:15 | Question @ OP: Are you here to discuss or argue? 'Cause I'm seeing less of the former and more of the latter. |
| #22MorukaiNov 08, 2014 6:48:01 |
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| #23Jay_Ibero_911Nov 08, 2014 7:38:48 |
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| #24MorukaiNov 08, 2014 8:17:24 |
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| (Reply to #18)FrogReaver |
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| #26melloredNov 08, 2014 9:13:25 | Sorcerer's are like fighter. That hit stuff hard. Wizards are like rogues. They don't hit as hard, but they have a lot of other utility. |
| #27YunruNov 08, 2014 9:27:06 | One could argue that Sorcerers are the best spellcasters. Spell for spell, the Sorcerer can do it better. |
| #28cowleymenNov 08, 2014 10:09:01 | this is like comparing a shotgun to a sniper rifle. These classes have different points. I dont think the OP is seeing a differince in the two classes that was intentional, but does not think the Sorcerer has any redeming qualities. To the OP, just dont play a sorcerer. I dout anything we can say will make you think other wise. Sorcerer's dont "learn spells" in game. The power of their soul grows. NO matter how much a human learns about biology, we cant change where our hearts sit in our bodies. |
| (Reply to #28)FrogReaver |
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| #30NirvanSNov 08, 2014 10:26:11 | I know it seems more like arguing than a debate, it's just my tone. I would like to play sorcerer but I feel like I am a bit shackled with the inability to change the spells learned
Based on info placed on forum, even with limited spells, they can be formidable due to sorcery points and what can be done with them. As long as you select the spells that works well with the meta magic. I just see the sorcerer differently then what is published. |
| #31ChrisCarlsonNov 08, 2014 10:41:18 |
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| (Reply to #30)Morukai |
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| #33Huntsman57Nov 08, 2014 17:32:53 |
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| #34melloredNov 08, 2014 17:43:35 |
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| (Reply to #34)Gruff_Ironfist | Am I understanding the sorcery points (SP) and flexible casting correct in this example?
13th level sorcerer, starts the day with 13 SP
1) Convert 7 SP to +one 5th spell slot (now have 6 SP available) 2) Expend three 1st spell slots to gain +6 SP (now have 12 SP available) 3) Convert 7 SP to +another one 5th spell slot (now have 5 SP available)
Repeat steps 2 and 3, making sure never to have more than 13 SP available at any time (per cap imposed by table), until... You've converted your full initial 13 SP and converted all four 1st, all three 2nd, all three 3rd, and all three 4th level spells slots... To get nine more 5th level spell slots.
If so, this 13th level sorcerer could start the day with eleven 5th level spell slots, one 6th, and one 7th. If this is possible, and presuming you didn't really care about using Metagmagic, this is an interesting alternative to a 13th level Warlock (with three 5th per rest, then the same one 6th and one 7th).
Is this legit? |
| #36ElfcrusherNov 08, 2014 19:45:56 | Sorcerers should have a 20th level ability that lets them change a spell for each 5 days of Downtime, or something like that. (Same with Warlocks and Invocations.) |
| #37Jay_Ibero_911Nov 08, 2014 20:50:31 |
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| (Reply to #37)Gruff_Ironfist |
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| #39Jay_Ibero_911Nov 08, 2014 20:52:57 |
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| #40the_moveNov 09, 2014 0:51:55 |
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| #41Huntsman57Nov 09, 2014 6:56:13 |
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| #42melloredNov 09, 2014 9:08:16 |
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| #43whitishknightNov 09, 2014 10:03:43 | On the flip side, I'm playing a wizard but I feel underpowered compared to the sorcerer at low levels |
| #44ZardnaarNov 09, 2014 12:07:34 |
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| #45Jay_Ibero_911Nov 09, 2014 12:11:22 |
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| #46ZardnaarNov 09, 2014 12:37:43 |
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| #47NirvanSNov 09, 2014 14:49:46 |
So, a sorcerer could instead know only spells above level 4 let's say, and convert the spell slots from level 1 through 3 to spell points and add more slots to level 4 or 5.
Theoretically, the sorcerer can know 2 level 9 spells ie wish and power word kill, but obviously able to cast only 1 9th level spell until long rest.
That actually does make a sorcerer a potent caster as he can cast spells at higher levels , therefore, more damage or effect.
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| #48NirvanSNov 09, 2014 14:55:08 | Does that also imply that with the Netamagic Quiken spell, you can use it to cast the cantrip True Strike, followed by chromatic orb? |
| #49YunruNov 09, 2014 15:12:05 | Sure you could (provided Chromatic is a cantrip), but True Strike still won't do anything until the next turn. |
| #50ZardnaarNov 09, 2014 15:35:24 |
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| #51Judou_HanabiNov 09, 2014 15:59:36 |
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| #52NirvanSNov 09, 2014 16:01:16 | Chromatic orb is not a cantrip, but True Strike is. I know you can't cast two spells at the same time normally, but it seems that a sorcerer can. Use Metamagic to cast True Strike as a bonus spell, then cast an attack spell as Chromatic orb
It's like the paladin/ranger casting Hunter'smark, then attacking |
| #53NirvanSNov 09, 2014 16:04:11 | Then what's the benefit of the Quikened Metamagic spell. Is it to cast a cantrip after regular spell? |
| #54NirvanSNov 09, 2014 16:05:44 | Quickened Metamagic cast fireball followed by fire bolt. Is that it? |
| #55YunruNov 09, 2014 16:36:37 | Nah, Quickened Scorching Ray followed by Eldritch Blast. With Hex up. :P |
| (Reply to #51)NirvanS |
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| #57melloredNov 09, 2014 17:54:28 | You can cast true strike then quicken cchromatic orb. Though you don't get advantage till next turn (which could be another chromatic orb). You cannot cast quicken true strike and then chromatic orb. |
| (Reply to #54)grendel111111 |
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| #59NirvanSNov 09, 2014 18:27:12 | I thought you can't do two Metamagic spells unless one of them is Empowered
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| #60melloredNov 09, 2014 18:36:00 |
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| (Reply to #60)NirvanS |
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| #62ZardnaarNov 09, 2014 21:35:51 | Can you twin a spell then quicken a spell using a different metamgic effect on the new spell? |
| (Reply to #61)grendel111111 |
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| #64TimboramaNov 10, 2014 6:50:39 | To the OP: It sounds like you just like Wizards. And that's fine! But Sorcerers are nice and powerful, even if they're not your particular playstyle. I've said this a lot, so other readers are free to skip this:
When someone is trying to decide if they want to be a Sorcerer or a Wizard, I have them look at the spell lists. If the Sorcerer can pick 10-20 MUST HAVES then yeah, Sorcerer is probably the class for them. If they simply can't choose because all the spells look amazing, then Wizard is their thing. WIzards have greater utility and better access to spells. Sorcerers, however, greater use of the spells they have access to.
Wizards cast and access more spells, but sorcerers simply cast them better! |
| #65ChaosmancerNov 10, 2014 6:52:38 | My problem with the sorcerer is two fold.
1) Less of a problem and more just I want more sub-classes. Neither sub-class really jumps out at me and some of the abilities are a little odd (Acid Dragon Sorcerer getting almost no use out of their elemental ability)
2) Not enough metamagic/too slow. You start with two metamagics and gain a third at lv 11 I think. Then a final one at like level 18. That is incredibly limiting considering how important metamagic is to the sorcerers shtick, and most people will pick the same 4-5 choices, because you need generally useful stuff since you get so few. Quicken and Twin will be the most common two to start out with, and many people will follow that wth empowered. I wish we had gotten just little bit more so the sorcerer could gain more things and didn't have to feel so constrained into one or two options. |
| #66melloredNov 10, 2014 6:59:00 |
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| #67ElfcrusherNov 10, 2014 8:00:12 | Sorcerers do need some more spells that use damage types other than fire. |
| (Reply to #66)Coredump00 |
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| #69melloredNov 10, 2014 8:36:38 |
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| (Reply to #69)Morukai |
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| (Reply to #46)randl |
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| #72melloredNov 10, 2014 9:53:18 |
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| (Reply to #71)Morukai |
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| (Reply to #73)randl |
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| (Reply to #67)Timborama |
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| #76NirvanSNov 10, 2014 13:02:13 | I am beginning to like the sorcerer alot. They can be more potent that other casters in combat. I agree with some of the posts about adding a new Metamagic to change type of damage ie fire to ice. In addition to get a Metamagic sooner or an additional one. |
| #77NirvanSNov 10, 2014 13:16:54 | I know everyone states that the sorcerer has Con prof which helps maintain concentration. But it seems to me most of the good spells do not require concentration |
| #78ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 13:38:42 |
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| (Reply to #78)NirvanS |
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| #80ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 13:52:47 | Twineed haste and greater invisability are offensive spells. Greater invisability provides advantage to hit (nasty on Rogues and sharp shooter, great weapon master feat) and disadvantage to get hit and twinned haste should be obvious. Greater invisability has non combat applications as well so it is win win IMHO |
| (Reply to #80)NirvanS |
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| #82YunruNov 10, 2014 14:20:36 | Hex says hi, beam spam ftw. |
| #83ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 15:21:40 |
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| #84Knight_MarshalNov 10, 2014 15:25:12 |
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| (Reply to #81)NirvanS |
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| #86NirvanSNov 10, 2014 22:19:03 | I think a sorcerer is outside the box is some respects. 1st, I don't think they can have 2 concentration spells going with the Twinned Metamagic.
2nd. I think with the Quickened Metamagic spell, he can cast another spell. A sorcerer can already cast 2 spells with twinned. Even if he doesn't have the spell slot available. Cost is sorcery points equal to level. And it doesn't have to be a cantrip.
Why can't he cast another spell with quickened. He is forced to use a spell slot to do it. Cost sorcery points and spell slot. |
| #87DaveDashNov 10, 2014 22:41:33 | Even if the Sorcerer got access to all metamagic at level 3, id still rather play a Wizard. |
| #88ZardnaarNov 11, 2014 0:06:41 |
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| #89YunruNov 11, 2014 1:30:14 | No it doesn't. Twin casts one spell with two targets. This is an important distinction as anything that affects the spell effects both targets. |
| (Reply to #89)Morukai |
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| #91Knight_MarshalNov 13, 2014 13:09:41 | I just got to level 3 with my sorcerer and had a blast playing in the AL. We were attacked by 3 ettercaps and 2 giant spiders. The bard cast faerie fire and only got one giant spider to fail the save. I blew it the hell up with scorching ray. One ettercap went right around our wagons and the other went left. The last one and the other giant spider came after me, the spider didn't make it to me, but the ettercap did, but due to my 15 AC missed both attacks. The bard cast faerie fire again and both failed their saves.
"Oh, they are so screwed!" Twin scorching ray with one of the bolts critting the ettercap ended with two very toasty and dead mobs. The fighter killed his ettercap and the other one which was getting plinked by arrow by another party member decided to bug out. He didn't make it. He took another arrow and I moved to where I could get clear line of sight and one quickened magic missile fillowed by a fire bolt and it was face down.
I am now thinking about not taking any warlock at all or at least holding off until after 6th level so I can get my chrisma add to damage. |
| (Reply to #91)Morukai |
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| #93PsikerlordNov 14, 2014 18:52:57 | The best way to play a sorceror is in a party with no wizard. And vice versa. If you want a sorceror to have more versatility, take ritual caster feat would be my suggestion, followed by arcane initiate or the skilled feat. And personally I would go with wild magic, just for the fun of the chaos and the memories it will provide. |
| #94KentusNov 15, 2014 15:22:46 | I personally think, that these both classes are quite different, even though both would claim similiar roles in combat. I think reasons why sorcerer's are seen less powerful are mostly:
Some months ago, I wrote a post on my blog about the comparison, today I've some further points which might be considered, written in a general overview of the sorcerer class. In the latter I explain, that I see the sorcerer's true potential in resource management: Waste less spell slots (and actions) on succeeding saves or weak damage rolls, use one action for double targets, etc. If you hit a boss fight, use the spell slots you won't probably use for fueling your spells for the utmost nova.
The goal of this class is not being a better or even as good spellcaster than the wizard, that'd be poor design and is the reason, why the sorcerer class never got me before. It's about having raw and unrefined potential, which leads to uncommon reconstructions of the spells, which the wizards would've deemed unchangeable but by the gods. I would never call the sorcerer weak (squishy, but not weak), the base class (means without sub-class) works much better than the wizard's imo and the subclasses only adds to the fundamentals, while a wizard is much more defined by its subclass. So a wizard which got a bad Arcane Tradition would be (imo) much worse off than a sorcerer with a bad origin. Especially considering that the current Arcane Traditions sometimes rivals in the things, every sorcerer could do (sometimes even better than a sorcerer could do, but these aren't called specialists for show).
In short, I disagree with the OP.
Ah, and warlocks are a wholly different class than any other, so I don't think, that any comparison would be fair here. |
| #95DaveDashNov 15, 2014 16:53:42 | I don't agree with you that the Wizards base class is worse than the Sorcerers. |