Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jaappleton Dec 02, 2014 12:02:01	My first post on the boards! Yay!     So here's my thought process: I'm never without a character. No one lives forever, not even Liches. :D   I've got a half-orc Barbarian right now that I play very recklessly, and I am constantly working on other characters for when my current one bites the dust.    Current party is my Barbarian, a two weapon fighter, and a Paladin of the Ancients. We're level 3.    I like the thought of going Monk. Not needing a weapon, very agile. Using the Urchin background to get slightly Rogue-y with the stealth. I was also looking at Four Elements monk to help fill in the "spellcaster" role a little bit. However, I'm worried that Ki is going to be an issue. It's used for quite a lot, after all, and the cost of the Monk "spells" aren't exactly cheap.    So I thought of Monk/Cleric. Currently toying between Light or Tempest. Light can impose disadvantage on incoming attacks, while Tempest has the revenge ability. Tempest 8 eventually gives me a +1d8 on attacks once/turn, Light gets +Wis to Cantrips (and Sacred Flame is the only offensive cantrip). Regardless I get access to healing spells and some good offensive spells as well.   Looking at Monk, I was thinking of going Monk 7 for Evasion and then going Cleric. But by that point, I worry that the Cleric spells that I get access to are essentially underpowered for the total character level, and I'd have been better off going full Monk (or another route entirely).   So, does anyone have any thoughts to help me out?   I'm not married to the Monk thing. Just looking for something versatile while not lagging behind in the damage department. Doesn't have to be a DPR king, just able to contribute and keep up.     Note: I never really like to think about going more than 5 or so levels ahead of wherever the starting point is. So I'm not too focused on what lv15 and 20 look like. I generally don't expect any character to live longer than 5 level increments. If they do, wonderful! But I never count on it.
#2 Yunru Dec 02, 2014 12:08:55	Don't want to put the effort for okay DPR? Take two levels of Warlock and make Cha your main stat, pick up Agonizing Blast.
#3 jaappleton Dec 02, 2014 12:31:14	So let's say 20 CHA at lv5 for a +5 modifier.    At lv5, that's 1d10 +5 x 2, right? Since at lv5 you can fire two beams, correct?   That's anywhere from 12-30 damage, with an average of roughly 21. Forgive me, I don't know the exact math on calculating DPR. But I think I'm in the ballpark. I hope.   So compare that to Monk, with 20 Dex, at lv5.   (1d6 + 5)*3 due to two attacks at lv5, plus the bonus unarmed strike. Anywhere from 18-33 with an average of 25.    Now, that's with the Monk making two attacks and using his bonus action, on top of needing to hit three different times. The Warlock attacks from a distance, this likely increases his survivability, it SEEMS (again, I don't know the exact math) that the Warlock can also go Nova a bit more and easier than the Monk...        But would it be necessary for full Warlock? What pact? Pact Blade seems versatile, Fiend has more blaster and survivability due to the Temp HP...   Recommendation?
#4 Yunru Dec 02, 2014 15:03:28	Cantrips scale with your total level, so those two levels leave you viable for life on the damage front, freeing up the other 18 levels. Personally I kinda like starting Warlock as a Variant Human with Moderately Armored to nab a shield, before going Sorcerer.
#5 WizardV Dec 02, 2014 15:53:08	Your thinking is all over the place. You like being agile, you want evasion or light to impose disadvantage on attack rolls, you want offensive spells. and you don't mind healing. The most versatile in all those domains would be bard. Looking at your party makeup, you have 2 strong melee combatants. You can go the grapple route, and trip prone enemies for your allies to beat their face in. Or dissodant whispers and laugh as the OA's murder a mob on the spot. You have healing, valor has strong AC instead of a gimmick like light. You still get to be a frontline combatant like it sounds like you wanted and can pull out a occassional thunderwave or something too.
#6 jaappleton Dec 02, 2014 17:34:05	WizardV,    You're absolutely correct. I am all over the place with this. I'm trying to make one character fill three or four different roles, it seems. And that just doesn't work.    I love my Barbarian because it's simple and fun. I hit things, I hit them hard, and I activate Rage when fighting something rough. That's all. Not a whole lot to think about. And playing the equivalent of the Incredibly Hulk has been fun to roleplay.    As far as the current party, it's been fine. With only the Paladin being able to heal, the DM has been accomodating. He's let us play the classes we want, scattering healing potions and timing rests appropriately.    My desire to play something so different stems from the "Ok, we have three Strength characters, so if one of us ever needs to hide, or attack from range, we're sort of screwed".        The Sorcerer, while powerful, seems a little too straight up "I NUKE EVERYTHING IN THIS DUNGEON!"   The Warlock, on the other hand, seems to be a nice balance of utility and blaster. Aside from healing, it seems that it can do pretty much everything I'm asking for, with the invocations being so versatile that it can accomodate basically any playstyle except healer.   Am I wrong in that assumption? Also, why go Sorcerer after starting Warlock? For Metamagic? If I were to go Warlock/Sorc, it'd be at the cost of Invocations and that versatility, correct?
#7 cowleymen Dec 02, 2014 17:52:39	People pick up sorlock for the best damage cantrip in the game. with out a doubt, yes, metamagic is the desire. But bard is your best bet if you want healing, thought it will be light healing. Everythig a bard does revolve around those spell slots, and you can run out quick if your healing light, since you may need more then one heal at a time. Jack of All Trades runs out of fuel quick when your trying to do it all all the time
#8 FrogReaver Dec 02, 2014 18:52:55	I think warlock and bard in some combination for you would be perfect
#9 WizardV Dec 02, 2014 19:56:27	jaappleton wrote:
#10 Nevvur Dec 02, 2014 23:57:10	Druid always seems to get ignored when people start talking about versatile classes. The only thing they lack compared to a bard is skill versatility, but the Wildshape and the druid spell list is sufficient to fill every other role.
#11 jaappleton Dec 03, 2014 4:51:38	Forgive me if this should simply be moved to the Warlock Handbook topic at this point, but... Regarding the Warlock's low armor: I was thinking of Pact of the Blade, mostly because Tome seems boring and I'm not convinced the Familiar is useful. Though admittedly, that may simply be ignorance on my part. So assuming I went Pact Blade, I saw that Mountain Dwarf gets Medium Armor proficiency. There's also the Mage Armor invocation. I assume that it's basically a wash? Going Medium or Mage Armor, really no difference? I thought of starting first level as Paladin to nab Heavy Armor, which I think also let's me Smite (and even use my Warlock spell slots to charge Smites), but... I think the Paladin of Ancients was already going down that path. So, I was debating about Pact Blade only because the other two options seem 'Meh'. I understand there's a big difference between "I don't like that option" and "I don't get it". Right now, I'm at the latter. I'm open to all the pacts, but I just don't understand the appeal. What am I missing?
#12 1eejit Dec 03, 2014 4:57:16	Monk/Druid totally works as a variety of gish.   There are many ways of doing it. Monk 2/Cleric 18, Monk 5/Cleric 15, Monk 8/Cleric 12, Monk 12/Cleric 8. It depends on what area of the character you want to concentrate on.
#13 jaappleton Dec 03, 2014 5:17:05	The apprehension that I have with Monk/Cleric is this: Gotta go Monk 5 to get the second attack. Then I start Cleric 1. So I worry that by the time I get better Cleric spells, they're essentially useless. I know, I'm worrying about a lot of things. But nobody wants a character they're unhappy with.
#14 1eejit Dec 03, 2014 5:55:04	Monk 5 is your third attack.   You could build something like Monk 2 -> Cleric 2(4) -> Monk 5(7) -> Cleric X
#15 Yunru Dec 03, 2014 6:07:14	I still say Warlock/X. Probably Warlock/Cleric. Eldritch Blast ensures you keep pace damage wise (as long as you boost Charisma), Cleric handles the healing/buffing. Inspiring Leader is a possibility, as is going five levels of sorcerer for the best Light Armor, and the ability to cast and twin Haste. Unless Clerics already get Haste, in which case only three levels.
#16 jaappleton Dec 03, 2014 6:44:43	I keep trying to quote while on my phone but it's not working out. Wouldn't Warlock/Cleric make me too MAD? Unless you're suggesting Cleric to get some decent armor, possibly even Heavy, then Warlock 2 for Agonizing Blast, then back to Cleric? Doing that creates a Cleric with a great damage Cantrip, with good AC, two rapidly refreshing spell slots and access to all the Cleric stuff. Would the two Warlock spells always be max level?
#17 Yunru Dec 03, 2014 7:34:42	I use Reply instead when on a phone. Not really that MAD, you want a 20 Cha, 14 Dex (Medium Armor) and then the rest in Wis. It'd be MADder if you wanted to atta k with Cleric spells, but the idea is you use those spells for support, so a less-than-max stat there isn't too big of an issue. The Warlock Spell Slots would stay the same unless you level up Warlock. The spells themselves, they're whatever level spell slot you cast them in. Unless they're a cantrip, then they scale by total level.
#18 1eejit Dec 03, 2014 7:56:38	Warlock 2 is dull, eldritch blast spam is boring.
(Reply to #18) Yunru	1eejit wrote:
#20 jaappleton Dec 03, 2014 8:13:31	OK. Let's take the Healing aspect out of this. Remove it entirely. How does Warlock/Monk synergize? Eldritch Blast handles distance. But does it's damage constantly outshine the Monk's hand to hand? The need for Wisdom as a Monk, especially for AC, is that null due to at-will Mage Armor? Let's say Four Elements Monk. Let's go full-on short rest reliant, why not. Aside from Eldritch Blast, take the blaster side of Warlock out, and think of the buff/utility aspect. Hex, for example. Is this viable? Don't worry about lv20, let's talk effectiveness at lvs 5 and 10.
#21 WizardV Dec 03, 2014 15:56:45	You need to define a bit more what you mean by utility, especially at low levels. If you take EB just for emergencies and don't worry about getting Charisma you are left with level 1 (maybe 2) warlock spells and invocations.   So which of these is viable utility? Armor of Agathys: its dmg and survival, not utility Arms of Hadar: dmg and survival, not utility Charm Person: No cha to power Comprehend Languages: Get someone the wizard ritual feat instead Expedititous Retreat: Sure... Hellish Rebuke: Combat damage, not utility, no cha to power Hex: Combat damage, not utility, but you are taking it. Illusory Script: Wizard Ritual instead Protection from Evil: Concentration consumed by hex, not viable Unseen Servant: Wizard Ritual instead Witch Bolt: Combat damage, no cha to power   Really the answer is none because your two slots will be used by hex. Your utility is your invocations. You wanted mage armor (a good idea) which consumes one of them immediately. What would you choose for your remaining? At the very low levels I might take false life and swap out at 8 when I would take warlock 3. But then, everything is combat and you have no utility.   When considering hex, keep in mind that it takes a bonus action to cast or move it which means you don't get your second monk attack or flurry of blows on the round you cast it. Also, it consumes concentration, so it eliminates some of your possible utility in combat and will eventually go away when you take damage.   Assuming quarterstaff, versatile. Round 1: Cast hex, Attack 1d8+1d6+3 (11) damage Round 2+: Double attack, 2d8+2d6+6 (22) damage   22 damage is solid at lvl 3. If you go monk 2 warlock 1 and flurry this skyrockets to 33 which is amazing damage; that outshines your dragon sorcerer quicken scorching ray+firebolt (28).   At level 3 you have difficult decisions to make. Warlock2/Monk1 or Monk1/Warlock2.   Warlock 2 Monk 1 will increase your AC by 3, from probably 15 to 18 and may provide regular temp HP if you take the false life route early levels. Monk 2 Warlock 1 will increase your burst damage.   Beyond level 3. I would get Warlock to 2 and then run Monk to 5. Low utility but a formidable striker. As you level, and you get your Dex to 20 you'll be running around with 20, or even more AC which is outstanding. In your teens you will be outshined by other strikers in DPR, just a fact of monk life, buyer beware.   You have the possibility of taking Devils Sight and using Way of Shadow to cast darkness, but keep in mind darkness takes concentration so it isn't compatible with Hex. Without Hex your DPR just isn't impressive. You'll have advantage but no GWM to capitalize on it with. I don't see much benefit of the way of the four elements. Hex concentration or level requirements prevent most of the cool things.
#22 Yunru Dec 03, 2014 16:16:17	If you're taking EB it's not "just for emergencies", it's your go to "I want that thing dead." Therefore Cha should be your highest, which changes a few of your assumptions. Heck he could go to Warlock 3 (Tome) and pick up Shillelagh to make Cha his primary melee stat too.
#23 WizardV Dec 03, 2014 18:15:47	He could do many things. But he specifically asked about Warlock/Monk. Monk is seriously pointless if you're maxing Charisma. I found what I believed to be the best synergy between the classes and offered it as a build based on what he asked for. If he invests in EB his AC will likely drop, any monk saves he has will drop, he will lose that free invocation he might have wanted for utility, and it will do less average damage in his level range than the monk attacks.
#24 Yunru Dec 04, 2014 0:10:21	Except what I offer is a build he asked for Mr. Arrogant. A fast utility character that is decent at damage. "Not married to Monk." That's Warlock 2/X if I've ever heard it. Pick up Mobile and possibly a level of Rogue if you want fast movement speed, or six levels of Monk for Shadow'porting if you're after mobility. Of course, as I mentioned for a Monk/Warlock Shillelagh lets his main melee attacks key off of Cha so they're still viable if he wants to say Stun someone, but EB still does more damage.
#25 jaappleton Dec 04, 2014 4:47:12	Guys, I thank both of you very much for your help. I did throw out the idea of Monk/Warlock, but only as a concept. I think it's obvious that I don't know exactly what I want locked down quite yet. That's why I'm here, asking for your insight as to what can work and how effective things can be.
#26 Yunru Dec 04, 2014 5:43:03	Warlock 2 for sure. Cleric has good minor action healing. From then forth, whichever caster has the most spells that take your fancy (although going with an Int based caster ontop of that would be pretty MAD).
(Reply to #19) 1eejit	Yunru wrote: