Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 FrogReaver Feb 22, 2015 23:17:33	There are 5 classes in the game that get the extra attack feature by level 5.   Barbarian Fighter Monk Ranger Paladin   I'm trying to answer the question:  Is there a way to make a multiclass character (non rogue) that can outdo any of these in damage over 24 rounds  of combat without getting the extra attack?       Basically extra attack allows for about 24 extra attacks over the course of the day.  That comes out to about 75-150 extra damage per day (assuming about 50% chance to hit).  The damage range is taken by assuming a 1d6 1 handed wepaon with +3 stat modifier and comparing to a big 2 handed 2d6 weapon with +4 stat modifier and the great weapon fighting style.   Paladins get 6 total spells they can use for divine smites.  That totals 14d8 (63) extra damage per day if just used for those.   Fighters get 4 superiority dice per short rest.  Totals to about 12 per day.  Thats 12d8 (54) extra damage per day if used for damage   Rangers get collosus slayer (extra 1d8 damae when a monster is hit).  Assuming about 50% accuracy it comes out to around 12d8 (54 extra damage).   Barbarians biggest asset when it comes to damage is reckless attack (Guaranteed advantage).  It's hard to quantify but if we assume accuracy of 50% then advantage should give about 50% more damage.  So if I am expecting 200-300 extra damage per turn then it comes out to around 100-150 extra damage.  However, reckless attack should probably only be used while raging since it makes your AC paper thin.  If we assume using it only when raging which should be for about 3 combats that are each 4 rounds then it comes out to 12 turns of raging and reckless attack which comes out to roughly 50-75 extra damage since it's half as many turns as was assumed before.   Monks get 5 ki points per short rest.  Assuming all ki points go towards the flurry of blows that gives 1 extra bonus action attack compare to not using it then that comes out to about 15d6 (52.5) + 60 = 112.5 damage and assuming 50% chance to hit that comes out to 56.25.   Considering most of these other features that do extra damage come at level 2 or 3 it doesn't appear that we can stack enough different features together before we reach level 5 to top the 75-150 extra damage that extra attack gives.  Especially considering we would need to top that and one of these 50ish extra damage abilities too.
#2 Yunru Feb 23, 2015 2:35:08	Are we including feats? If not Monk 2/Hunter 3. If we are Crossbow Expert Hunter 3/Fighter 2. Regardless Sorcerer 3/Warlock 2. Technically Warlock 5 with Thirsting Blade.
#3 mellored Feb 23, 2015 6:10:07	Warlock 2/... anything... with hex.   2d10+cha + 2d6 = 24 damage * .5 = 12. (+some other benifit). *24 rounds = 288 damage.   Sorcerer, asssuming you can hit 2 targets with an AoE. Freball =  28* .75 (half on miss) = 21 * 2 = 42 *2 = 84 Shatter = 13.5 * .75 = 10.125 * 3 = 30.375 * 2 = 60.75 Burning hands = 10.5 * .75 * 3 = 23.625 * 2 = 47.25 16 firebolts = 32d10 * .5 = 88 *5 twinned firebolts = 10d10 * .5 = 27.5 = 307.5
(Reply to #2) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #3) FrogReaver	mellored wrote:
#6 mellored Feb 23, 2015 10:16:26	FrogReaver wrote:
#7 FrogReaver Feb 23, 2015 10:38:03	Comapring the level 1 features of classes   Barbarian +2 rage damage 2 times per day (8 turn and 50% chance to hit) = +8 damage (some restrictions on armor and str attacks apply)   Fighter +2 damage from duelist (24 turns and 50% chance to hit) = +24 damage (other weapon groups have a similiar style)   Monk Extra attack 1d4 + 3 (24 turns 50% chance to hit) = +66 damage (however many restrictions on armor and weapons apply and requires bonus action every turn)   Rogue +1d6 (24 turns at 50% chance to hit) = +42 damage (weapon restrictions)   Warlock -Hellish Rebuke- 2d10 and half on save (assuming 50% chance to hit and 3 times per day) = 8.25*3  = +24.75 damage (takes your reaction)   Warlock Hex +3.5 (assuming 3 casts and 4 turns per combat and 50% chance to hit) = +21 * number of attacks  (takes some bonus actions and scales very well  with extra attacks)   Bard Bardic Inspiration - can turn charisma mod (3) misses into hits per day = (I'll assume average weapon damage on party is about 8).  This translates into about +24 damage.   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Bard 1/ Fighter 1/ Rogue 1/ Warlock 2 is about the best character concept I can think of for being competitve in the damage department at level 5.   Combined this should mean 8 level 1 hellish rebuke uses.  (6 from warlock and 2 from bard) 1d6 sneak attack damage per attack +2 damage from dueling fighter style per attack 3 allies misses can be turned into hits per day   Translation: +42 from sneak attack +24 from duelist +24 from bardic inspiration +66 from hellish rebuke = +156 damage.  This actually looks competitve enough to be a viable build without the extra attack.  Should just need dex and charisma for the multiclassing too.
#8 penguinmane Feb 23, 2015 11:35:35	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #8) FrogReaver	penguinmane wrote:
#10 BRJN Feb 23, 2015 18:32:15	A Monk5 is probably fighting bare-handed.  He gets 1d6 on his Martial Arts attack, which equals any monk weapon.  (If you really need slashing / piercing instead of bludgeoning - fighting a Skeleton? - there are valid monk weapons to get that.)   Where did the '24 attacks per day' parameter originate from?  My first thought upon reading it was "unless trapped in Helm's Deep".
(Reply to #4) Yunru	FrogReaver wrote:
#12 Vahnyu Feb 23, 2015 19:04:46	BRJN wrote:
(Reply to #11) FrogReaver	But Level 5 monk gets extra attack and Bonus action attack.   Yunru wrote:
#14 Yunru Feb 24, 2015 1:17:21	Yes, yes they do. Which gives them 3 attacks a turn. Monk/Hunter, however, gets three attacks a turn (Horde Breaker, Martial Arts), plus the option to FoB.
(Reply to #14) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
#16 Yunru Feb 24, 2015 2:25:49	When you've two attacks with which to trigger it and the manuvability of a Monk? I guess not if they're spread out, but then they're not focus firing so go Team PC! That and allies can help with positioning. Hell come level 6 (outside our scope I know but not by much), take Open Hand and you can do the positioning yourself.
(Reply to #16) FrogReaver	Yunru wrote:
#18 jaappleton Feb 24, 2015 9:54:17	What number crunching never points out is team play. Does someone cast Faerie Fire to grant allies advantage? Does the Open Hand Monk use Stunning Strike so allies have advantage, and cause the enemy to fail its next Dex saving throw?
#19 Mommy_was_an_Orc Feb 24, 2015 9:58:40	You need to also account for the problem that Polearm Master exists, which provides both a reaction attack and a bonus action attack. Something single class 5th level builds will get easily, not so easily for 3/2. i.e. most of them can easily have 3 attacks as a default in comparison with a chance of a 4th.
#20 Mommy_was_an_Orc Feb 24, 2015 10:00:50	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #18) FrogReaver	jaappleton wrote:
(Reply to #19) FrogReaver	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#23 Mommy_was_an_Orc Feb 24, 2015 11:44:02	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #23) FrogReaver	Its a bad assumption to assume that a class must sacrifice stat progression for a feat when variant human exists.   Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#25 FrogReaver Feb 24, 2015 13:13:42	All in all this was a productive exercise. Most base melee builds get extra attack at level 5 which gives a lot of extra damage.   They also all get an ability that allows them to either play more defensive or more offensive.  Paladins spells can be used for added damage or healing. Around 50 either way.   Fighters get superiority dice which can be used for damage reduction or extra damage.   Monks get ki which can be spent on bonus action dodge or more bonus action attacks (not sure how much the dodge impacts this)   Barbarian gets reckless attack which if not used means moderate ac and damage reduction and if used means about 50 to 75 damage and about normal defenses compared to any other character
#26 Mommy_was_an_Orc Feb 24, 2015 13:17:48	FrogReaver wrote:
#27 mellored Feb 24, 2015 13:28:14	Humans look really good in a white room.   They don't do nearly as well in a dark one.
#28 Mommy_was_an_Orc Feb 24, 2015 13:39:36	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #26) FrogReaver	Right. They won't get the stat bump but they can still have the feat and that is why the first few posts in this thread make mention of not getting +stat bonus. It's why I estimated extra attack as giving between 1d4+3 (5.5) per hit and 8.33+4  (12.33) per hit.   Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
(Reply to #27) FrogReaver	oh yea I love dark vision.  I personally don't like playing human any more unless I plan on going 2 warlock kind of early.     I wish they they had a variant option for each race that removed dark vision and replaced it with something appropriate.     mellored wrote:
#31 BRJN Feb 24, 2015 15:51:57	FrogReaver wrote: