Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 HermanTheWize Jun 16, 2015 12:10:38	Just wondering what class/archetype does the most DPR using a longbow, including feats.
#2 mellored Jun 16, 2015 12:11:31	Fighter.
#3 GladiusLegis Jun 16, 2015 13:02:48	Ranger (Hunter) up to  Lv. 10, actually. Fighter at Lv. 11+.
(Reply to #2) HermanTheWize	mellored wrote:
#5 mellored Jun 16, 2015 13:23:52	HermanTheWize wrote:
#6 Mazzy Jun 16, 2015 13:35:53	The best tech with the longbow is to use the Battlemaster Menacing Attack maneuver. Many of the monsters don't have ranged attacks, so if they get frightened before they can close in its bad times.   Go Human for the alertness feat and you're set. Its not a high DPS build, more controller, but longbow is not a great weapon for DPS anyway (hand crossbow with Crossbow Expert is much better for straight damage.)
#7 Ilse Jun 16, 2015 14:41:21	Mazzy wrote:
#8 Ashrym Jun 16, 2015 14:44:13	Volley on a hunter still has some appeal if area damage matters to the archer. Battlemaster archers are the way to go for single target and burst damage, as agreement with above responses.
#9 RicknMO Jun 16, 2015 16:35:03	Ilse wrote:
#10 Helnam Jun 16, 2015 17:39:02	Valor bard.  gets 2 attacks at level 6 (1 level late) and at lvl 10 it gets to take swift quiver from ranger giving you 4 attacks at level 10.  You'll want to take 2 levels in Fighter at some point for the stance and action surge.  I'd prolly take either the first or 2nd level in fighter based on if you want the bard skills or heavy armor prof and of course there are the saves you need to think about.  anyways if you cast swift quiver before combat that'll make a 8 attack first round (because action surge gives an extra action and bonus action) and the basic 4 attacks after that all by 12th level.   plus you get the utility of having high level spells in this build.  Heals, raise dead, fairy fire (pre 10 due to concentration) all sorts of goodies a pure fighter would not have.
(Reply to #10) Ashrym	Helnam wrote:
#12 FabulousRex Jun 16, 2015 18:06:43	War Cleric 8 / Battlemaster 12?   Divine Strike, Bonus Action Attack, Concentration on Bless, Archery Style and Sharpshooter.  Maybe not as good as a pure Fighter, but still pumps out damage.  Up to 7 attacks at high levels, plus an extra 2d8 DStrike damage and Bless on top of Precision Attack to use Sharpshooter all the time.
#13 Helnam Jun 16, 2015 18:22:15	Hmm true I did misread action surge, guess it doesn't give you a extra bonus action.  That said I don't see why you say his damage is so low.  It's the same as the fighter just with the utility of spells to back you up.  You say at level 16 you can have swift up for half your fights.  so half your fights you get 4 attacks the other half you get 2.  average of 3... same as an equal level fighter.  and honestly a lot of campaigns you end up resting more than that simply because of travle time or RP reasons.   matters how hack and slash the game is.  by 20th level you have enough slots to have it up for every fight so 4 attacks a turn just like the fighter but you have the "utility" of 9th level spells...  I mean does wish or power word kill really do anything anyways?  I know you're looking for longbow dps but this is longbow dps built into a caster.  Might be slightly less I'd say 90% of the full fighter but with so much more to make up for that 10%.
#14 FrogReaver Jun 16, 2015 23:09:18	HermanTheWize wrote:
(Reply to #12) FrogReaver	FabulousRex wrote:
#16 Zardnaar Jun 17, 2015 0:26:25	The extra attack (hordebreaker) is also worth considering as the hunter ranger. Longbows DPR may not equal the hand crossbow+ sharpshooter but it is more reliable ands you can aleways get the benefits of another feat thats not sharpshooter. That build is a one trick pony anyway.
#17 Yunru Jun 17, 2015 1:57:16	Stick Hex on there, be it by Warlock 1 or Magic Initiaite, to dramatically improve DPS at all levels (except 20 if you MCd). Unfortunately you don't get enough attacks to not make Haste the better choice, but when that's not an option (no spell slots for it, or someone already cast it on you) Hex should be a go-to.
#18 mellored Jun 17, 2015 5:34:13	FrogReaver wrote:
#19 HermanTheWize Jun 17, 2015 5:59:29	Thanks for all the posts! Great discussion.
#20 HermanTheWize Jun 17, 2015 6:39:41	So the benefit of the longbow is range, and it frees up your bonus action, compared to hand crossbow. How do you take advatage of that?
(Reply to #20) jaappleton	HermanTheWize wrote:
(Reply to #21) HermanTheWize	jaappleton wrote:
#23 jaappleton Jun 17, 2015 6:57:21	Off the top of my head, without crunching a bunch of numbers... Battlemaster 18/Rogue 2 would be a solid choice.
#24 mellored Jun 17, 2015 7:14:22	HermanTheWize wrote:
#25 mellored Jun 17, 2015 7:22:09	My next character will be a birdman archer battlemaster 11/thief.  Possibly shadow monk 6, for teleports, slowfall, and more speed.
#26 jaappleton Jun 17, 2015 7:32:01	Slowfall on a birdman is a good decision. Getting knocked out of the sky is going to hurt, after all.
(Reply to #25) HermanTheWize	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #20) FrogReaver	HermanTheWize wrote:
#29 FrogReaver Jun 17, 2015 9:41:03	I would strongly suggest considering a level 11 battlemaster fighter and level 9 favored soul  sorceror.  Tons of utility spells.  You can also use your bonus action on turn 1 for bless.  It isn't very far behind in DPR from the pure DPR builds.   You can also bonus action haste or twin cast haste if ever needed or desired.
(Reply to #28) HermanTheWize	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #29) HermanTheWize	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #31) FrogReaver	HermanTheWize wrote:
#33 mellored Jun 17, 2015 10:20:52	HermanTheWize wrote:
(Reply to #33) FrogReaver	mellored wrote:
#35 ChrisCarlson Jun 17, 2015 10:29:58	I do not believe anyone has offered up the possibility of fighter with a 3 or 4 level dip into ranger. Is that a dud?
#36 HermanTheWize Jun 17, 2015 10:30:50	Cool cool, thanks for the help dudes. Pretyy cool ideas here.
#37 mellored Jun 17, 2015 10:41:51	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#38 ChrisCarlson Jun 17, 2015 10:41:53	I must have missed the part about DPR being single-target only. My bad.
#39 mellored Jun 17, 2015 10:43:16	ChrisCarlson wrote:
(Reply to #38) FrogReaver	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#41 ChrisCarlson Jun 17, 2015 11:14:40	All I'll say is that part of 5e's BA design was so that more, weaker monsters could remain a viable challenge longer. So, to me at least, it would stand to reason that encounters will organically include more baddies to shoot. No?   And I do not subscribe to the idea that focus fire is always better. Often? Sure. But at the end of the day, when you need to do N x Y damage, AoE is also often a strong option as well.
#42 GladiusLegis Jun 17, 2015 16:22:55	If you're up against hordes a lot, which in a properly balanced encounter will always consist of much weaker enemies, then AoE becomes a pretty big deal. If the encounter is more like 2 or 3 stronger foes, then focus fire is generally better.   In any event, AoE is (or at least can be) much more valuable in 5e than in 4e, where it was pretty much always incredibly worthless.
#43 ChrisCarlson Jun 17, 2015 16:30:55	And thing about 1st-level ranger spells? They have a great AoE and single-target spell option. So why is it not a viable DPR consideration?
#44 mellored Jun 17, 2015 18:26:10	you get more from rogue
#45 GladiusLegis Jun 17, 2015 18:48:54	Rogue (Assassin) 3/Ranger (Hunter) 11/Fighter 2 = Surprise-round AoE nova
#46 ChrisCarlson Jun 17, 2015 18:56:32	mellored wrote:
#47 GladiusLegis Jun 17, 2015 19:50:19	Ranger (Hunter) Lv. 10: Archery Style, SS = +6 vs. AC 17 1d8 + 1d6 Hunter's Mark + 5 DEX + 10 SS, 1d8 Colossus Slayer 1/round 2*(0.45*23 + 0.05*31) + (1-.55^2)*4.5 + (1-.95^2)*9 = 27.2   Rogue Lv. 10: +9 vs. AC 17 1d8 + 5 DEX + 5d6 SA 0.6*27 + 0.05*49 = 18.65   Fighter Lv. 10: Archery Style, SS = +6 vs. AC 17 1d8 + 5 DEX + 10 SS 2*(0.45*19.5 + 0.05*24) = 19.95   So at Lv. 10, the Ranger is pretty far ahead round-to-round.   A Battle Master Fighter will pull ahead in any given round if he uses Precision Strike on a miss, but of course that's a pretty limited resource, esp. at Lv. 10. The Fighter will pull ahead permanently against a single target at Lv. 11 (third attack).   Rogue will eventually pull ahead of the Ranger single-target, but not until very, very late levels.
#48 mellored Jun 17, 2015 20:38:39	ranged rogue should generally have advantage, as well as dipping for archery style and longbow proficency. you don't have 20 dex and sharpshooter as a level 10 ranger, unless you are human. hunters mark also only has a 90' range compaired to the 300' sharpshooter. and colossus slayer is a little more situational then you calculated. though it's had to say how much more. fighters also pulls ahead with action surge. and with only 5 or so rounds of combat per short rest, that's usually more then enough.
#49 Ilse Jun 17, 2015 23:23:30	RicknMO wrote:
(Reply to #47) FrogReaver	GladiusLegis wrote:
#51 HermanTheWize Jun 18, 2015 7:15:13	Think I'm going to go Fighter EK or BattleMaster, hard to say which one. Wish hand crossbow wasn't as redicouls as it was. I don't think the handcrossbow should be able to use SS -5 / +10, feel like it should require heavy, similar to Great Weapon Master.   It's like giving great weapon master to dual wielding.
(Reply to #51) jaappleton	HermanTheWize wrote:
(Reply to #52) HermanTheWize	jaappleton wrote:
(Reply to #51) FrogReaver	HermanTheWize wrote:
(Reply to #54) HermanTheWize	FrogReaver wrote:
#56 jaappleton Jun 18, 2015 9:45:37	What about house ruling Sharpshooter to require the target be at a minimum distance away from you?
(Reply to #47) Coredump00	Are we against MCing for this comparison?   My current favorite is Ranger5/Rogue5   Will give you everything the Ranger gets, plus 3D6 once per turn. So adding onto the numbers below, 34.5    Then I would got Battlemaster for 3-4 levels.  While missing out on the 3rd attack, I think it can still keep ahead of a pure Battlemaster build at higher levels.   GladiusLegis wrote:
#58 FrogReaver Jun 18, 2015 11:26:21	My issue is that range is a longbow archers best asset.   Hunter's mark is much shorter range than a longbow.   Likewise consistent sneak attack with a rogue requires either an ally near an enemy (kind of eliminates some of the benefit of longbow range) or it requires some method to get consistent advantage.  If consistent advantage can be achieved then the rogue versions actually start looking alot better.
#59 BestNorthernDope Jun 18, 2015 13:08:36	After doing some simple math on the hand crossbow vs longbow, I don't really see the fuzz. So I'm guessing my math is wrong. Could someone double check it for me?   11 Battle Master / 9 Assassin (Very simple DPS-build) 20 Dex, Action Surge, Hex applied to both, even though only the longbow user can cast it during the nova round. (magic initiate for it)   Longbow 6 attacks, double the dice due to assassinate 5d10 Menacing attacks, 5d6 sneak attack dice   12d8 (longbow) + 10d10 (menacing attack maneuver) + 10d6 (sneak) + 12d6 (hex) + 30 (dexterity) This is an average of 36 damage per attack, for a total of 216 average should all attacks hit.   Hand Crossbow 7 attacks, again double dice due to assassinate 5d10 menacing attacks, 5d6 sneak attack dice   Here Hex is granted for free, even though you normally have to use your bonus action to cast it. Some might argue they can cast it before the attack, so I thought I'd keep it in for comparison.   14d6 (hand crossbow) + 10d10 (menacing attack) + 10d6 (sneak) + 14d6 (hex) + 35 (dexterity for seven attacks) This averages 31,8 damage, and exactly 223 average damage should all attacks hit.   What am I missing? Since you are having this discussion, I'm guessing my math is way off. Could someone enlighten me? I didn't bother with to-hit chance, as it's the same for both of them. Should favour the hand crossbow a tiny bit since its damage is divided over more attacks.   *Edit* Missed 2d6 from the hex damage on the hand crossbow, fixed it now.
#60 Setis Jun 18, 2015 14:10:45	Where is a 11 Battle Master/9 Assassin getting Hex from?
#61 BestNorthernDope Jun 18, 2015 14:38:13	Setis wrote:
#62 Helnam Jun 18, 2015 15:20:06	Still say nothing beats the fighter 2 / Valor bard 18.  4 attacks by level 11 (or 10 if you want to wait until 11 for archery stance) still got action surge and archery stance.  Again it migh be missing a couple DPR but come on, having the huge array of spells including 2 level 9 spells from any class.  How is it even comparable?  And really there is not much need to dump too many point into Cha.   Hell you can be extra lame and go warlock 2 / bard 18 with swift quiver.  so you get to cast Eblast as your action and 2 attacks as your bonus.  In this case you would not really need to go valor bard as you would not be using your action to attack.  If you didn't go valor you would either need to use  a short bow or find another way for the prof in longbow.  So lets say you stick with valor.   Eblast (1d10+5)x4 = 42 Lbow (1d8+5)x2 =19 42+19 = 61 dmg a round with no -5/+10   I still like the fighter 2 / bard 18 because they get  alot more work out of -5/+10 but both builds get that 18th level bard to work with that by 18 has stolen a total of at least 6 spells from other classes lists, 2 of which are level 9 spells.
(Reply to #62) Coredump00	Helnam wrote:
(Reply to #58) Coredump00	FrogReaver wrote:
#65 GladiusLegis Jun 18, 2015 16:24:03	The two actual big advantages of longbow over hand crossbow + Crossbow Expert are:   1) One more feat/ASI to play with, and 2) Bracers of Archery   Range is nice, but as mentioned above, doesn't come into play THAT much.
#66 GladiusLegis Jun 18, 2015 16:32:15	Re: Colossus Slayer damage in my calculations: The only situation that calculation doesn't apply is if the enemy isn't damaged yet when you attack, then the DPR is indeed a bit lower, but not by much.
(Reply to #66) FrogReaver	GladiusLegis wrote:
#68 Helnam Jun 18, 2015 21:01:11	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #68) Coredump00	Helnam wrote:
(Reply to #69) FrogReaver	Coredump00 wrote:
#71 Helnam Jun 19, 2015 9:46:44	Coredump00 wrote:
#72 HermanTheWize Jun 19, 2015 9:48:46	@Coredump00 How does the progression for your build go? Let's say your are starting at level 3, and if you have the time level 5 version too.
#73 Phorem Jun 19, 2015 10:11:30	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #71) FrogReaver	Helnam wrote:
(Reply to #71) Ashrym	Helnam wrote:
#76 Zardnaar Jun 19, 2015 16:14:45	In a real game the Ranger is better with the logn bow over the hand crossbow unless you have a way to constantly feed advantage to maximize the -5/+10 part of sharpshooter. I have seen both builds in action. If you have a shiled master fighter/bard or multiclass rogue build in your party and a bless bot cleric or whatever hand corssbow can sneak out ahead. Also depends on colossus slayer vs horde breaker and the Fighter 1/ValorBardXYZ is a bit better than other thing as at higher levels you can cast foresight on yourself and you can use swift quiver in higher level slots or just cast things like haste on yourself or greater invisability which is a poor man foresight at a  lot lower level.     THe extra versatility of Rangers and Bards which are competitive in the DPR department tend to offset the few cases were DPR might be marginally lower as in game there are to many situations where DPR won't be ideal either due to range or not being able to use the -5/+10 part of sharp shooter effectively. THe Hunter Ranger with a longbow still has their bonus action to use over the hand crossbow andfd that means hunters quarry or whatever coming online that much earlier.   Valor bards should steal hunters quarry and swift quiver as thier spells. I was impressed by the hunter ranger in play the CE+SS was quite average when other PCs were not helping him out- comparing a hunter ranger to CE+SS fighter.
#77 Ashrym Jun 19, 2015 16:19:50	If you do want the bard archer also grab haste with secrets at 10th level, and glyph of warning and improved invisibilty with bard spells known earlier. Human variant sharpshooter and 20 DEX by 10th level gives you an arcane ambusher build on a bard. Given time for buffing spell glyphs that you trigger when casting swiftquiver you can have haste and improved invisibilty glyphs to bypass concentration and run 5 attacks per round with advantage. It's not cheap but it works if you plan an ambush site in advance, and you can add poison to your arrows if you want more bang for your gp. At that point you can look at MC options to support the style.
(Reply to #76) FrogReaver	Zardnaar wrote:
#79 Zardnaar Jun 19, 2015 18:29:01	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #79) FrogReaver	Zardnaar wrote:
#81 Zardnaar Jun 19, 2015 19:19:19	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #81) FrogReaver	Zardnaar wrote:
(Reply to #71) Coredump00	Helnam wrote:
(Reply to #73) Coredump00	HermanTheWize wrote:
#85 Zardnaar Jun 20, 2015 13:04:59	FrogReaver wrote:
#86 GladiusLegis Jun 21, 2015 6:44:54	I'm beginning to think Swift Quiver in general is overrated, actually. Even for the Ranger.   Let's take an absurdly high AC, say, 22.   Lv. 17 Ranger w/ longbow + Sharpshooter,  +8 vs. AC 22: Keep in mind with Swift Quiver up, the Ranger does NOT get to add Hunter's Mark damage, so the damage is simply 1d8+5+10 .25*19.5 + .05*24 = 6.075 DPA Damage added from Swift Quiver vs. AC 22 = 12.15   vs. 5th-level Conjure Animals, 16 wolves  (+4 w/ advantage) vs. AC 22: (.2775-.0975)*7 + .0975*12 = 2.43 damage per wolf Damage added from 16 wolves vs. AC 22 = 38.88   And, as I said, that's vs. AC 22. Most enemies you face don't have an AC even that high, of course, in which case the advantage of the conjurations is even more pronounced.   Swift Quiver still has its place against enemies who can fly (Giant Owls aren't nearly as threatening) and/or who have an AoE that can wipe out the wolves in one round. So for those reasons alone, it's probably still a solid black rating, at least. But if neither of those apply, I'm using that 5th-level slot for 16 wolves, period.
(Reply to #86) FrogReaver	GladiusLegis wrote:
(Reply to #86) FrogReaver	GladiusLegis wrote:
#89 mellored Jun 21, 2015 10:44:12	It's on par with other damage spells if you have archery style and 20 dex.  Above if you have a magic weapon or some weapon damage boost.