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| #1ShojiteruSep 04, 2015 9:26:13 | I'm going to be in a party of 4 and I would like to know if/how I can pull my weight. I decided on a character that is a jack of all trades, sorta. I don't know what the other three will play either, so that makes it difficult.
At level 1, I will start druid entertainer. Point buy 8 str, 14 dex(16 racial), 14 con, 8 int, 12 cha(13 racial). Pick up Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Dissonant Whispers, Healing Word, Cure Wound and Unseen Servant.
At first, I would be more of a support. In the back, cating with the Wizard-type. Next level I go Monk to boost AC. Over time with boosting Monk, I'll be able to pick up Observant feat then be able to do with the Rogue on scouting when I hit Shadow and help out the frontline a short time. In combat, I see myself helping where it needs most so I can go anywhere (monk mobility pun).
Now with 13 cha, prof in persuasion would let me be a backup face incase that was needed. I know a bard/rogue could do all this better than a monk with bard dip but this has more flavour and more fun imo.
Would this be a complete fail? Could I focus on one aspect and be much better (keeping the 1 dip bard rest monk idea)? Should I just not do one of the roles? The char is made for RP and fun but I started looking at Min/Maxing as a side thing. Dex and Wis takes 4 Asi and 1 feat for observant to max, so no extra charisma. At most, I can max in 4 and take 1 other feat, but super perceptive is super cool, ergo extra +5 from observant. |
| #2pdegan2814Sep 04, 2015 11:40:01 | Trying to do *everything* rarely works out. In the immortal words of Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, you'll just be twice as half-a$$ed. My thinking would be to figure out your character's in-combat and non-combat specialties, and build to them. Is there a particular reason why you don't know what the other players will be? Are you not able to find out? Are you not allowed to for some gameplay reason?
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| #3ShojiteruSep 04, 2015 15:18:32 | We all haven't met up yet. It's my first time with this group and I'm probally jumping the gun by thinking of my character beforehand but I thought it would make a good character.
As I look at the character, he can help with battle control and healing with his spells, scout and do rogue-ish things with shadow, help the frontline for a few rounds, help talk to NPCs. I assume the others won't be going for min/max builds so I thought I could help whoever needs it.
I'm still kinda new so I don't know all the types of roles that I could fill. I don't see a path my character could take without changing the concept and going a different route. (I liked the magic using shadowdancer idea) That's why I was wondering if someone with more experience could help point me in the right direction on a more specific role my character could play. Perhaps just a typical rogue type? |
| #4pdegan2814Sep 04, 2015 15:53:15 | Think about what you want to be doing in a fight. Do you want to be the guy standing in the middle soaking up damage, swinging a great big weapon? Do you want to be darting all over the battlefield striking from behind and then vanishing before they have a chance to react? Do you want to be firing arrows into your enemies from a distance? If you want to be weilding magic, what sort? Do you want to be blasting fireballs & such, destroying groups of enemies? Do you want to be debilitating your foes by blinding them, paralyzing them, etc? Do you want to be casting spells that help or heal your allies? Or do you want a little of both, a weapon-based character with a touch of magic to augment your attacks?
And outside of a fight, what sort of character do you want to be? Are you the "face" of the party, the one doing all the talking? Are you the scout, checking the path ahead for traps, monsters, secret passages, etc? Are you the brain, identifying mysterious objects, solving puzzles, and whatnot? Are you just a brute, there to look mean & scary, waiting for the next fight?
Those aren't exhaustive lists by any means, and you don't necessarily have to limit yourself to one of the duties from each list, that's just to give you an idea of the various roles that party members might find themselves taking on during an adventure(and there's no rule that says a party can only have one person capable of acting in each role). Some combinations of combat & non-combat roles tend to work better together than others, usually because of the ability scores that you'll want to be strong in. However, unorthodox combinations are not only possible, they can sometimes be lots of fun depending on how you play them. I would definitely say that especially for a newer player you'll probably want to focus your character a bit, you'll have a much easier time deciding what skills & such to pick when you level up. Think about what specific roles you want to play in a party, and maybe think up 2-3 prototypes for the type of character you'd want to be. Then when you meet up with your group for the first time and talk about who's going to be what, you have some fallback options if everybody wants to be the same thing.  Something else you might want to do is check the thread in this Player Help section titled "Pre-Generated Character Repository", it contains a bunch of Level 1 characters people have rolled up. They might give you some ideas for how to start yours out. Or post back here with a bit more specific take on what you'd like to do within the party, and perhaps folk can help you decide on a good race/class combo for you.
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| #5WorBladeSep 04, 2015 16:09:01 | I echo the thought that planning on specializing in one main area is a better plan than being so-so or less at a lot. For a starting party the ability to tank damage or do damage is often the key to survival. Barbarians, fighter and for a mix of combat and eventual spells rangers/paladins. A cleric is often a good middle ground choice. War clerics fight well and can heal. You can always worry about branching oiut into other classes after the group has played together a bit based on what the group needs or what you feel might enhance your personal fun factor.
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| #6ShojiteruSep 04, 2015 17:30:38 | At the first level, I could be supporting the party. Someone goes down, I can heal. Someone's in trouble, I can help them out. Next, when I start Monk, I can start doing some damage, helping out more in combat. Still, emergency situation then I can help out. Later on, I can focus my skills more towards scouting and taking people out from the shadows. I'll do good damage and be far away before I can be touched, meanwhile stay as the emergency help just in case or even help myself if I get stuck scouting and scout into a trap. Basically an arcane trickster/assassin combo focused on doing damage without getting hit in combat. A basic glass cannon. Out of combat, I can scout but still hold my own in a conversation. Not exactly a face but just more charismatic than the average person.
At first few levels, the focus won't exactly be steady, but later on it'll all come together to form a unique, literal shadowdancer.
I like the Drow race for this and the goddess Eilistraee so I can follow that example. Would need a bit of charisma to get people over that initial hate of Drow and since I'd be rare on the surface, who wouldn't want to see a rare race preform for them? Lot of great RP there and such. So how does this sound?
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| #7Kithas48Sep 04, 2015 18:00:05 | NOnononononono
being a jack of all trades is GREAT!
It can be a lot of fun but their are a couple things to keep in mind;
firstly you should keep in mind that having a non-specific role does mean that you are not as good as a more focused character at that role, you wont be able to blast as well or tank as hard as someone dedicated to that. That said if your group really needs a specific role then you wont be able to bend your character sideways to fill that role really well :/
That said a role-filler is a role you can fill. The closest mmo reference I can make is the Chanter from Aion. basically bards that could tank or main heal for a bit while their normal job was dps/buffs. Basically your main class needs to have some buffing and Healing built in, then multiclassing into a class that is better at tanking/damage dealing would be ideal. There are some good mixes for this if you want to start in druid that sounds great actually, especially if you are doing moon druid as wild shape can be exceptional for early game tanking in a pinch, they also have acceptable healing. Your next class imo should be Ranger Hunter, they have a lot of things you want; Defensive Abilities, Medium Armor, Higher Hit dice/hp, things like Multiattack Defense. They also get a lot of direct offense with fighting style, Horde Breaker/Giant Slayer and Extra Attack. In spells they give you entangling strike(great CC), Hunter's Mark(great for dps), and Hail of Thorns(wonderful AoE) among others.
The rogue/monk idea youre working with is interesting for sure, im just not sure youre going to have the toughness to make it happen, youre mixing 3 squishy classes and you wont have much health as a result, you will probably do more damage than my route because sneak attack is pretty amazing. Basically do what you think is best but keep in mind that as the role filler survivaly of the party is what comes first, you just have a creative way of getting there ;)
Also consider using Shillelah all the time so that you dont need a physical stat in order to do melee damage, just bash em with your WIS!
Basically your battle to battle job is use entangling strike as cc(grab some darts to throw it on people) then wade into melee with the toughs, using them as cover to hit really hard on whatevers soft, if you need to heal, you are more than capable and in a pinch you can go Giant Hyena and take all the hits! And when theyre far? Make em eat a Call Lightning!
p.s. I was saying no to the nay-sayers not you.
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| #8ShojiteruSep 04, 2015 18:44:40 | I was just going to go monk/bard and be like a rogue. Didnt want to lose an asi or empty body so would only be able to dip 1 level. Figured the magic from bard would be more beneficial in combat than sneak attack. I think it would be cool to be able to fill in any role if the need arose so that's good versatility. My way is more flavour and lacking than what other similar builds could do. In close combat, I would be leaning more towards avoiding hits rather than taking them with dodge and such. The monks maneuverability makes for a good up and close fighter who avoids combat. Dodge and weave through the horde while they fight the frontliners, somewhat. I would be better at scouting and going through hitting and avoiding getting hit. If someone falls, i can help them back on their feat with healing words or cure wound, using my maneuverability to quickly get to them. Dissonant Whispers pushes away enemies incase a super squishy person is getting overwhelmed and the main fighter wont make it in time. I dont think monks are THAT squishy since they got medium armor at first, basically then max at 20, which is better than plates 19. Secondary fighter character that wont survive too many hits but the problem would be to land those hits. |
| #9Kithas48Sep 04, 2015 19:23:53 | sounds good, keep in mind that with only a 1 level dip you will only ever get 2 spell slots, meaning you will have a very limited pool of spells. you may consider going 3 levels in bard; you get 2nd level spells and 6 total slots you also gain access to the Invisibility spell, so you can still do most of what empty body does, you get jack of all trades which actually applies to your initiative (its a dex check) and is really good everywhere, song of rest expertise, a bard college, the list goes on. That would be my advice, go at least 3 levels in bard so you actually get some of the meat of the class and your cost from monk isnt harsh. also 4 asi's is usually plenty
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| #10ShojiteruSep 04, 2015 19:46:31 | I'll consider it. 4 ASI will max my wis and dex but then i lose that nifty observant feat. Te reason I said I would be more of an emergency help was because of the limited spells. The 2 from bard, 3 from race, 3 from shadow(depending if i can spare the ki) and the 3 cantrips should be useful enough if it was needed. Basically just whisper a baddie away from downed main healer then cure wound so the frontliner can close enough to take care of the rest. In truth, empty body is all that holds me to monk so high since that shadow capstone at 17 kinda sucks and the cloak of shadow moderately makes up for a reason to ditch empty body. Astral projection just seems like a fun thing to do and unlime wizards, it's free and i can be invisible, resisting all but force while my body is in suspended animation. Clear leg up on cloak of shadows.
EDIT: if i do ditch empty body, i may lose more ki, but that frees up enough so i could potentially take 5 bard. I'll definately think about that. |
| #11pdegan2814Sep 04, 2015 19:46:17 | |
| #12ShojiteruSep 04, 2015 20:37:59 | Tinking about it more, if I do dip more than 1 level, it definately would be 5 levels and I think Warlock would be the best for 5th level. Could go blade pact and use that one invocation to double attack with pact weapon, attack again due to extra attack, bonus attack flurry of blows and get 5 hits in. Plus devil's sight for darkness. It would require a completely new concept, but a great character. So basically thats 2 different characters down for consulting party roles with the group. |
| (Reply to #12)bid | |
| (Reply to #12)pdegan2814 | |
| (Reply to #13)Shojiteru | |
| (Reply to #14)Shojiteru | |
| (Reply to #12)Ashrym | |
| (Reply to #17)Shojiteru | |
| #19jaappletonSep 05, 2015 8:10:31 | Don't.
Please, don't multiclass into so many different classes to try to be able to do everything. It's going to end up being a mess. Just don't do it.
Want to be a jack of all trades? Want to be be able to be well rounded, capable of helping in almost any scenario?
Be a Bard.
"Oh, but Bards suck! They-"
Listen for a minute. Nobody can support like a Bard. No other class can do it quite to well. Bards can subtract numbers from an enemies attack rolls. You can literally save lives. You can turn enemy hits into misses. You can steal spells from other class lists. You can give you allies advantage on attacks. You get skill proficiencies up the wazoo. You get Expertise in skills (Rogues are the only other ones that can do that). If you wanna be able to do two attacks in a round, you can do that, too.
Don't multiclass this. Just be a Bard. Bard out with your heart out.
EDIT:
Also, Bards synergize with every other class. Devastating combos can be set up. Let's say there's a Monk in the party. They use Stunning Strike. The enemy is now Stunned. Know what that means for you? They automatically fail any saving throw your spells would make them roll. Go ahead and look at the spell Disintegrate, which you can get through the Bard feature Magical Secrets. Yeah, you see that? The only spellcaster with d8 hit dice that gets spells as awesome as that. Because you can get any spells you want. You can get Paladin and Ranger exclusive spells before they can.
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| (Reply to #19)Shojiteru | |
| (Reply to #18)Ashrym | |
| (Reply to #15)bid | |
| #23ShojiteruSep 05, 2015 12:09:25 | Life cleric would just make me a backup healer but not so good. I'd rather do more than just heal.
Knowledge cleric just gives me some skills that I don't need. Only 8 Int so Int isn't my strong suit.
Nature cleric. Im on the dark side of nature. Don't need to be that close to it.
Cleric overall is just for guidance mainly. Bless and some other 1st spells are good but with only 2 slots, the cantrips is where most of my uses of the class will come from.
Bard for me was the better pick because although it's one less cantrip, two good cantrips are better than 1 great and 2 alright. Plus the 2 spells can let me heal and silent image works good too. Unseen servant would be ritual so won't need to use my spell slot. Brdic inspiration would just be a bonus from the class that I wouldn't really need but a good addition.
All together, rogue would be better if I wanted to focus more for expertise and sneak attack. Other options would be better for more support and utility. I just wanted a small mix of each in a way that no one would think of because there would be a better way to do it but this combo, it won't be maximized but it still works effectively in a team with three others to back up where I'm lacking. |
| #24bidSep 05, 2015 14:48:08 | For a monk, you'd want {Str10 Dex16 Con14 Int8 Wis16 Cha10} and that's with wood elf or aarakocra to boost Dex/Wis. Getting Cha13 to MC bard is going to be hard.
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| (Reply to #24)Shojiteru | |
| #26jaappletonSep 05, 2015 18:41:09 | Drow is a poor choice if your campaign isn't in the Underdark. The Sunlight Sensitivity can really suck. |
| (Reply to #25)bid | |
| (Reply to #27)Shojiteru | |
| #29bidSep 05, 2015 21:06:37 | Please make him use the pink hello kitty umbrella from order of the stick.
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| (Reply to #29)Shojiteru | |
| (Reply to #26)CCS | |
| (Reply to #31)jaappleton | |
| #33pdegan2814Sep 06, 2015 7:14:37 | |
| (Reply to #33)Shojiteru | |
| #35MelwickSep 06, 2015 7:51:31 | When one is a "Jack-of All- Trades", he or she is very likely to be a "Master of None" when it comes to the various skills he or she is interested in. Some job skills require more dedicated time and focus than other job skills to master.
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| #36ShojiteruSep 06, 2015 7:55:56 | Without fun races like Drow that require a bit more roleplay creativity, you end up only able to play human. Hell, ALL elves and dwarves are racist so you need to be offensive if you play them... actually, all the races are racist to others. D&D's selling point is be racist to everyone. Maybe not humans though. They're not racist. They're too busy trying to do the things everyone else did hundreds of years ago, so be human and nice while everyone looks down on you. |
| #37jaappletonSep 06, 2015 8:11:19 | Know what? I'm not even certain you want help. I think you're just trying to convince yourself of something. Best of luck, OP. |
| #38ShojiteruSep 06, 2015 9:29:53 | Basically, what I'm looking for is only a 1st level dip to give me a magic monk, without using Magic Initiative. Utility/healing spells are what I'm mainly after not only for combat, but rp and other uses.
Bard works well with my character concept, good healing, utility, and fun spells. Cleric is more on healing but mostly there for the boosted healing and guidance since the cantrips far outweigh the spells. Druid is similar to cleric, but goodberry would be fun out of combat. I'd love mage hand, prestidigitation, and goodberry alone but that can't happen.
In short, which is better? Which cantrips could I get the most use in/out of combat with? The 1st level spells won't be used much, but would they be able to benefit my character?
I want to know would picking druid or cleric for 2 spells a day be better than getting the cantrips I want from bard.
Bard: mage hand, prestidigitation, silent image, healing word, cure wounds, unseen servant.
Cleric; Life: Guidance, mending, thaumaturgy, bless, cure wounds, command, create or destroy water.
Druid: druidcraft, guidance, goodberry, create or destroy water.
Stupid phone and paragraphing |
| (Reply to #38)Ashrym | |
| (Reply to #39)Shojiteru | |
| #41pdegan2814Sep 06, 2015 18:18:25 | |
| (Reply to #41)Shojiteru | |
| #43pdegan2814Sep 06, 2015 19:42:58 | |
| (Reply to #43)Shojiteru | |
| #45pdegan2814Sep 07, 2015 7:32:31 | |