MC Druid/Monk Question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 BigTallMike Aug 20, 2014 10:27:28	I am going to be playing a Druid, and I think it would be interesting to multiclass into Monk for the times I'm not in Wild Shape. My question is, how do things like Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, and Flurry of Blows combine with your beast form?
#2 1eejit Aug 20, 2014 10:45:11	Rather unclear, seems like an area for DM ruling.
#3 kitman Aug 20, 2014 10:52:26	I asked in the FAQ section about this too. Seems very ambiguous -- in particular things like flurry of blows and what damage this would use.
#4 Danny_Montanny Aug 20, 2014 12:25:28	"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." I would say it would definitely work with Unarmored Defense: "while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield." Is the beast wearing armor and/or weilding a shield? No. Then your AC will equal 10+ Dex + Wis. If this is lower than the AC of the beast, then go with the beast's natural AC (since it's most likey due to a thick hide or something), though this would be more than likely the exception. Martial Arts is a bit tricky. You get the benefit because "your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons." If you're in a form that can't take advantage of those practiced movements, then I don't think that counts as "physically capable of doing so." Now if you Wild Shaped into an ape (possibly a bear), then I'd say, "have at it!" As for Flurry of Blows, I wouldn't restrict it the same way as I would restrict Martial Arts. If you want to spend ki, which you should be allowed since there's nothing physically hampering it, you should be able to make two extra natural weapon attacks. But unless you're in a form that would give you access to Martial Arts, they would just use the stats the beast has for the attack. Ultimately you're not going to gain much from your Monk features while in beast form.
(Reply to #4) NN1	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#6 Kalani Aug 20, 2014 14:40:33	The general rule when determining AC is - if you have multiple sources that grant your AC, choose the best one.... In this instance, that will almost always be your unarmored defense class ability. Unarmed Strike is a very poorly defined term (p.149 and 195 are its only references). What little information we have regarding UA implies it is a specific type of melee attack, and is as unrelated to all other melee attacks as an axe is from a sword is from a longbow.... AFAIK beasts do not have the ability to make unarmed strikes.... Instead, they are capable of making specific natural weapon attacks (claw, bite, slam, etc). UA was defined as a type of natural weapon in prior editions, and can be logically construed as such in 5E (despite the lack of a proper definition). I would allow an ape, or other bipedal beast to make unarmed strikes however, but that would be a houserule on my part. All unarmed strikes may be considered natural weapons, but the reverse is not true. It would be as illogical to state that a claw attack is an unarmed strike for the same reasons that it would be illogical to call a quaterstaff a dagger (both simple weapons), call a shortsword a battle axe (both martial weapons), or call a shortsword a rapier (both types of sword).
#7 1eejit Aug 20, 2014 14:49:24	It's really not clear at all, you have two sentences which give no indication as to which supercedes the other. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores VERSUS You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.
#8 cartolis Aug 21, 2014 7:57:24	Per the listing in the back of the phb monster physical attacks are listed as Melee Weapon Bite or Melee Weapon Claw and so on. Martial arts would not work unless your DM will rule suck things as included in the list of monk weapons. As for the unarmored defense, were I running the game, I would alow it.
#9 vodokar Aug 21, 2014 11:48:12	Rules minutia aside, I can think of a logic behind allowing at least some animal attacks to be considered as martial arts unarmed attacks - the fact that many martiial arts base thier attacks on observations of how certain animals fight. I can logically reason that if there is an animal form fighting style for that type of animal, then the animals attack should equate to a martial arts attack. Just some of the ones off of the top of my head are crane, tiger, monkey, snake, preying mantis and I'm sure there are many others and this could be easily tailored to a D&D setting.
#10 Kalani Aug 21, 2014 12:30:56	vodokar wrote:
(Reply to #10) vodokar	Kalani wrote:
#12 Nitu Jul 20, 2015 16:16:01	Does WOTC ever actually answer this question? I've been asking it since the release. Does the Druid's wisdom bonus stack with the Wild Shape form AC if the druid multiclasses with Monk?
#13 Slagger_the_Chuul Jul 20, 2015 17:09:11	Nitu wrote:
#14 jaappleton Jul 20, 2015 17:39:29	I believe a beast form has natural armor. Unarmed Defense does not stack with that.
#15 Yunru Jul 20, 2015 18:05:51	actually it does, see the most recent Sage Advice. Beasts (and you) don't wear natural armor. Not that they actually stack, but one doesn't stop the other from working.
(Reply to #15) Macv12	If natural armor was a feature that said "your AC increases by 3," or if Unarmored Defense said "your AC increased by an amount equal to WIS," it would be fine. But yeah, they don't "stack" because monster blocks say "your AC is X" and Unarmored Defense says "your AC is 10 + DEX + WIS." There's nothing to stack. These just plain conflict, so you have to ignore one.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

BigTallMike

Aug 20, 2014 10:27:28

I am going to be playing a Druid, and I think it would be interesting to multiclass into Monk for the times I'm not in Wild Shape.

My question is, how do things like Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, and Flurry of Blows combine with your beast form?

1eejit

Aug 20, 2014 10:45:11

Rather unclear, seems like an area for DM ruling.

kitman

Aug 20, 2014 10:52:26

I asked in the FAQ section about this too. Seems very ambiguous -- in particular things like flurry of blows and what damage this would use.

Danny_Montanny

Aug 20, 2014 12:25:28

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."

I would say it would definitely work with Unarmored Defense: "while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield." Is the beast wearing armor and/or weilding a shield? No. Then your AC will equal 10+ Dex + Wis. If this is lower than the AC of the beast, then go with the beast's natural AC (since it's most likey due to a thick hide or something), though this would be more than likely the exception.

Martial Arts is a bit tricky. You get the benefit because "your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons." If you're in a form that can't take advantage of those practiced movements, then I don't think that counts as "physically capable of doing so." Now if you Wild Shaped into an ape (possibly a bear), then I'd say, "have at it!"

As for Flurry of Blows, I wouldn't restrict it the same way as I would restrict Martial Arts. If you want to spend ki, which you should be allowed since there's nothing physically hampering it, you should be able to make two extra natural weapon attacks. But unless you're in a form that would give you access to Martial Arts, they would just use the stats the beast has for the attack.

Ultimately you're not going to gain much from your Monk features while in beast form.

(Reply to #4)

NN1

Danny_Montanny wrote:

Kalani

Aug 20, 2014 14:40:33

The general rule when determining AC is - if you have multiple sources that grant your AC, choose the best one....

In this instance, that will almost always be your unarmored defense class ability.

Unarmed Strike is a very poorly defined term (p.149 and 195 are its only references). What little information we have regarding UA implies it is a specific type of melee attack, and is as unrelated to all other melee attacks as an axe is from a sword is from a longbow....

AFAIK beasts do not have the ability to make unarmed strikes.... Instead, they are capable of making specific natural weapon attacks (claw, bite, slam, etc). UA was defined as a type of natural weapon in prior editions, and can be logically construed as such in 5E (despite the lack of a proper definition). I would allow an ape, or other bipedal beast to make unarmed strikes however, but that would be a houserule on my part.

All unarmed strikes may be considered natural weapons, but the reverse is not true. It would be as illogical to state that a claw attack is an unarmed strike for the same reasons that it would be illogical to call a quaterstaff a dagger (both simple weapons), call a shortsword a battle axe (both martial weapons), or call a shortsword a rapier (both types of sword).

1eejit

Aug 20, 2014 14:49:24

It's really not clear at all, you have two sentences which give no indication as to which supercedes the other.

Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of
the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality,
and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores

VERSUS

You retain the benefit of any features from your class,
race, or other source and can use them if the new
form is physically capable of doing so.

cartolis

Aug 21, 2014 7:57:24

Per the listing in the back of the phb monster physical attacks are listed as Melee Weapon Bite or Melee Weapon Claw and so on.

Martial arts would not work unless your DM will rule suck things as included in the list of monk weapons.

As for the unarmored defense, were I running the game, I would alow it.

vodokar

Aug 21, 2014 11:48:12

Rules minutia aside, I can think of a logic behind allowing at least some animal attacks to be considered as martial arts unarmed attacks - the fact that many martiial arts base thier attacks on observations of how certain animals fight. I can logically reason that if there is an animal form fighting style for that type of animal, then the animals attack should equate to a martial arts attack. Just some of the ones off of the top of my head are crane, tiger, monkey, snake, preying mantis and I'm sure there are many others and this could be easily tailored to a D&D setting.

#10

Kalani

Aug 21, 2014 12:30:56

vodokar wrote:

(Reply to #10)

vodokar

Kalani wrote:

#12

Nitu

Jul 20, 2015 16:16:01

Does WOTC ever actually answer this question? I've been asking it since the release. Does the Druid's wisdom bonus stack with the Wild Shape form AC if the druid multiclasses with Monk?

#13

Slagger_the_Chuul

Jul 20, 2015 17:09:11

Nitu wrote:

#14

jaappleton

Jul 20, 2015 17:39:29

I believe a beast form has natural armor. Unarmed Defense does not stack with that.

#15

Yunru

Jul 20, 2015 18:05:51

actually it does, see the most recent Sage Advice. Beasts (and you) don't wear natural armor. Not that they actually stack, but one doesn't stop the other from working.

(Reply to #15)

Macv12

If natural armor was a feature that said "your AC increases by 3," or if Unarmored Defense said "your AC increased by an amount equal to WIS," it would be fine. But yeah, they don't "stack" because monster blocks say "your AC is X" and Unarmored Defense says "your AC is 10 + DEX + WIS." There's nothing to stack. These just plain conflict, so you have to ignore one.