Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Coredump00 Aug 17, 2015 11:26:28	So.... lvl 8 vengeance Paladin.  I will likely MC after level 12, but wondering if there is a compelling reason to do so earlier.   Looking at Bard/Sorcerer for more smites, but by level 12 its only a couple of more spells, and losing out on Improved Divine Smite Same with Warlock, but with slightly different math.   Is there some other benefit I am missing? (Granted, having Shield would be nice...)
#2 jaappleton Aug 17, 2015 11:51:29	Don't do it prior to 11, since that's when you get an extra D8 on your attacks. I honestly don't see any MC worth it before then.
#3 Enevhar_Aldarion Aug 17, 2015 15:23:03	How high a level do you expect the campaign to go and are the mechanics more important to you than the character's story?   Edit: Almost forgot to ask this too. Do you plan on taking more paladin levels after multiclassing or just levels in the new class?
#4 GladiusLegis Aug 17, 2015 15:20:54	Proceeding from Lv. 8 ... not really. Lv. 9 is the 3rd-level spells, Lv. 10 is Aura of Courage, and Lv. 11 is Improved Divine Smite. And Lv. 12 is a feat/ASI. Can't really think of anything that would be worth putting those off at the stage you're at, especially from the classes you plan to MC into.
(Reply to #4) jaappleton	GladiusLegis wrote:
#6 Netherholde Aug 17, 2015 18:50:26	Do you have a level range range limit?   A Blade Pact Warlock of the Fiend would get you some tankiness by getting THP everytime you kill someone, some spells to assist in that like Armor of Ag??? something along with Hex to further your dps which would compensate for the loss of lvl 11 Paladin. You would have fast recharge slots to keep your smiting ability up with short rests. In higher levels you could get the damage boost to weapon as well, but there is a lot of utility / survivability this could bring you. So yes this is one possibility that I would think is worth the change now instead of 11.   The flip is you would need to come up with an interesting story to how this all fits togather in RP.
(Reply to #2) Vulf	jaappleton wrote:
#8 SterlingRat Aug 18, 2015 4:27:04	Yeah... I'm pretty much just echoing what everyone else said... "Wait until after 11, possibly after 12". I just want to add that the only place prior to 11 that might possibly be a reasonable breaking point is at 7, and only for a vengance paladin - Devotion and Ancients get awesome auras at 7, Vengance gets a situational movement boost that might be nice sometimes, but not often. Since Level 8 is an ASI, I could see delaying 7&8 until after you pick up some bard/sorcerer goodness. I would not do it personally, though... I'm just saying I could understand the decision.   In your case, you have already passed 7 & 8, so just keep going to 11 or 12 before switching.    And I was going to multiclass my ancients paladin after level 7, but that's because his story took him in that direction - we were doing lots of fae stuff and I had a little sprite buddy that was going to become my familiar at level 3 Warlock when I took Pact of the Chain... so I suppose you could also MC if you have a compelling RP reason to do so.
#9 svendj Aug 18, 2015 9:05:59	Vulf wrote:
#10 Be3Al2 Aug 21, 2015 3:05:28	A 2 or 3 level dip of fiend Warlock at some point might be worth it for Eldritch blast, an invocation and some THP when you kill enemies etc. Pact of the blade could be situationally useful. Given how far you have come I have no idea of when to do it or if you should do it at all.
#11 TyrusandRhane Aug 21, 2015 10:23:38	I suppose the always present question is what do you want your character to do?   One item not mentioned here is the interaction of multiclassing on spell slots.    There are two classes which can make good use of 'orphan' spell slots (a slot for a spell level when you do not yet have the ability to cast spells of that level) other than 'powering up' a lower level spell (which is not bad either, in many cases).   Those classes are Paladin (because they can use them to Smite) and Sorcerer (which can exploit them with Font of Magic/Metamagic).   I intend to do this with a Paladin-6 (just after the Aura of Protection - helps on concentration saves): (Read: Overall Level, Class Levels, Spell Slots, Features) 7th: (Pal6, Sor1) 4-3                        4 Cantrips, 1st level Sorcerer spells 8th (Pal6, Sor2) 4-3-2*                    Font of Magic 9th (Pal7, Sor3) 4-3-3*                    Metamagic, 2nd level Sorcerer spells 10th (Pal6, Sor4) 4-3-3*-1*            ASI 11th (Pal6, Sor5) 4-3-3-2*              3rd level Sorcerer spells   (spell slots read 1st level - 2nd level- 3rd level, etc).   Note that this does not REQUIRE the War Caster feat (could be a great weapon guy using a free hand, or a Mariner fighting style), but a fully armored and shielded Paladin casting the Shield spell...whoa..   So, were you to MC to Sorcerer for your 9th level, you would immediately become a 5th level spellcaster (4 levels from Paladin divided by two, plus one for your new Sorcerer class), thus your spell slots would be 4-3-2.     That happens to be the same as you would have as a 9th level Paladin, however you would not have access to 3rd level Paladin spells, and only access to level 1 Sorcerer spells (and Cantrips). You can still smite with those slots (4d8 each for a 3rd level slot) and later on generating these 'orphan' spell slots will pay off with Font of Magic (trade slots for Sorcery Points, or Sorcery Points for slots) Metamagic (Quicken spell, of course...), but at 9th level it will cost you access to 3rd level Paladin spells - not a small price to pay.    at 9th Level you'd pick up 4 Cantrips and access to 1st Level Sorcerer Spells (Grab Shield if you are a melee hound...) At 10th level you'd be Sorcerer 2, and pick up Font of Magic (at this point, all you can really do is generate an additional level 1 slot) at 11th level You'd be Sorcerer 3, so access to 2nd level Sorcerer spells, and get Metamagic. NOW it gets fun – use Quickened Spell to cast full action spells as a bonus action. At 12th, if you go Sorcerer you get an ASI/Feat 13th would be where you pick up access to 3rd level Sorcerer spells   You begin to build those orphan slots pretty quickly by leveling up in Sorcerer: (asterisk are 'Orphan' slots) (Read: Overall Level, Class Levels, Spell Slots, Features) 9th   (Pal8, Sor1) 4-3-2*                                  4 Cantrips, 1st level Sorcerer spells 10th (Pal8, Sor2) 4-3-3*                                 Font of Magic 11th (Pal8, Sor3) 4-3-3*-1*                            Metamagic, 2nd level Sorcerer spells 12th (Pal8, Sor4) 4-3-3*-2*                             ASI 13th (Pal8, Sor5) 4-3-3-3*-1*                         3rd level Sorcerer spells (Fast Fireball or Lightning Bolt, anyone?)   And while you can now more efficiently trade in spell slots for Sorcerer points, keep in mind you can never have more Sorcerer Points than the limit for your level, so spend those points before any trade-in, and only trade in a appropriate level slot.   Is that worth the jump at level 9 to Sorcerer? Only you can answer that, as it is your character, but another option is to wait until 12.   If you stayed Paladin until 12, you would pick up an ASI, Improved Divine Smite, and Aura of Courage, access to 3rd level Paladin spells (HASTE for your Vengence Paladin...) and then level 13 is a great place to pull off the MC spell chart trick.   If you take Sorcerer at 13: (asterisk is Orphan) (Read: Overall Level, Class Levels, Spell Slots, Features) 13th (Pal12, Sor1) 4-3-3-1*                           4 Cantrips, 1st level Sorcerer spells 14th (pal12, Sor2) 4-3-3-2*                           Font of Magic 15th (Pal12, Sor3) 4-3-3-3*-1*                     Metamagic, 2nd level Sorcerer spells 16th (Pal12, Sor4) 4-3-3-3*-*2*                    ASI 17th (Pal12, Sor5) 4-3-3-3*-2*-1*               3rd level Sorcerer spells   Is this better/worse than staying Paladin? Only you can decide - it's your character.   My opinion is that this work better at some levels than others, and after 6th and 12th are probably the clearest 'good buy' spots. Not sure it works as well just after 8th as you are so close to 3rd level Paladin spells (Dispel Magic, Haste, etc), but the ability to cast those in a BONUS action is very tempting to me - but you will need 3 elevels of Sorcerer to do it.   I have intentionally left off they subclass of Sorcerer, as any of them help to egenerate the Orphan slot/Metemagic trick, and it would probably just make this more confusing. Clearly, a Dragon Sorcerer could work well for a Dex Paladin (Mariner Fighting style perhaps...?).....Tempest Sorcerer gives nice spells to play with (Call Lightning as a BONUS Action!?!?!!?) etc...   I, for one, plan to make my DM go bald through frustration with never ending Shield spells using the Orhpan slots and Font of Magic to have a stupid amount of 1st level slots through a day.   And, of course, have 'Super Smites' because I have access to much higher spell slots to smite with than a normal Paladin of that level would have. (Granted, those Smites top out with a 4th level slot, but hey, I'm also a Sorcerer, so....)
#12 bid Aug 21, 2015 12:44:51	Note that because of flexible magic inefficiency, each sorcery point does 1d8 of smite damage. You can tune the smite level without loss.