| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1Hyphen_Aug 15, 2014 12:49:01 | Hello guys! This is intended to just be a silly theoretical optimization brainstorm. Nothing serious for actual play *giggles*
So!
What cool/ridiculous stuff can you think of doing with the Conjuration Wizard's 2nd level feature: Minor Conjuration?
-Free Material Components? (gems, diamonds, etc) -Summon a portion of the sun and unleash the equivalent of an H-bomb? -Visit a library and summon a book from it at-will to consult anything? (thanks user NN1 for this one, pretty awesome) -Scry to see more things you could Minor Conjure? (Like I dunno, inside a volcano to see really really hot lava) -Have an obscure backstory that says that you've seen hypercompressed air (or smoke) in your past (your rock gnome inventor uncle had insane inventions or something), so you summon "Ursus Strikes" (Anime: One Piece, Character: Kuma.) at will?
Discuss! |
| #2Jvance420Aug 15, 2014 13:33:36 |
|
| #3reddaemonAug 15, 2014 14:31:30 | Since it isn't specific, it's completely up to the GM if any of these things are possible. You'll have to ask your GM because everyone will have their own interpretation.
I would say no to free material components but that's just me. For all other intents and purposes you would conjure real gems and all attempts to examine them would show them to be real, but they would still be magical and display a conjuration aura when examined with Detect Magic. You might get away with selling these disappearing gems a few times, but they would figure out what's going on pretty quick and start enacting waiting periods before paying, etc after consulting with other adventurers and spellcasters. Also, a jeweler would likely be covering their ass to begin with as they live in a world where magic exists and it is very likely that someone else has already done this to them or someone they know already. Don't be surprised when they hire some adventurers or consult the local Wizards to figure out what's going on and send them after you once they figure it out.
Conjure =/= Summon. Conjuring an object doesn't necessarily mean you are taking it from somewhere else.
I would say no to the sun thing as well. Once again, you aren't summoning, you are creating. Yes they are the same school of magic but that doesn't mean they are the same.
Trying to use it to conjure hot lava is starting to tread into the territory of Evocation.
I think you are misinterpreting what it says. The ability says you can only create objects in a form that you have seen. To me that means that in order to create an adamantine greatsword, you must have seen a greatsword at some point. You cannot form a car with it because you have never seen a car. It does not say that once you have seen something, you can summon it. |
| #4NN1Aug 15, 2014 14:58:42 | Firstly, let's analyze its limitations.
I think a lot hinges on what constitutes a single "object" and the extent to which you have to observe an item to have "seen" it. Furthermore, one might ask if the nature of being a magically conjured item makes the item unsuitable for spell components (or of value too low to work for costly spell components).
What constitutes an object is important. The "bit of sun" or lava idea relies on one's ability to take a subsection of a fluid or part of a larger object. Maybe you can make a blob of lava so long as you have seen a blob that, completely fits into the parameters (so you have to have seen a blob no larger than 3 feet in any dimension and equal to or less that 10lbs). Multi-part items or containers of an item may or may not constitute single objects (think a set of thieves' tools, a flask of acid, or a vial of poison).
Determining what constitutes "seeing" is also a big question. How well must one remember an object to accurately reproduce it? What happens if one's memory is wrong or even modified? What if the caster's perceptions were misleading or deliberately altered? What if you see a stage weapon that is little more than a harmless toy? What if you see an illusion of an item?
To what extent does one need to understand bits that aren't visible to the surface to reproduce an item (as with books whose pages are unseen when closed, or complex contraptions whose gears are hidden?
There could also be some question as to the temperature of the item created. Meh.
Besides these grey areas, note that the items only last 1 hour max and disapear when they take ANY damage. Since weapons don't normally take damage unless attacked, they should hold up to normal use (until someone sunders the weapon), but a flask of acid is likely to take damage when it shatters, thus disapearing the instant it connects. |
| #5NN1Aug 15, 2014 16:38:39 |
|
| (Reply to #5)Jvance420 |
|
| #7Hyphen_Aug 15, 2014 17:27:08 |
|
| (Reply to #7)Jvance420 |
|
| #9Hyphen_Aug 15, 2014 17:43:03 | Lemme retry then. I'll repost what I said.
Minor Conjuration hasn't been playtested, its not present in the playtest downloads. WotC has a lot of great things but Minor Conjuration isn't one of them.
(sits and waits) |
| (Reply to #9)Jvance420 |
|
| #11PsikerlordAug 15, 2014 22:04:32 | I dont have PHB. But object to my mind means a solid object. No lava. No sun. No gas. Nothing like that, at all. It glows magical doesnt it, so no fooling anyone that your temporary gold is real. I wouldnt allow the summoned item to replace gp value spell components, theyre not real (permanent items?) are they, its just temporary - it would be far too easy a way to get around spell limitations.
As for the summon a particular book, I wouldnt allow that either. it seems to me you can summon an object with a form resembling a book you have seen, but it isnt that book, its just something of similar size, shape, appearance, and there would be nothing to read in it. Just pages, or pages with indeciperable writing, or something similar.
It's a second level ability and ought to be interpreted with that power level in mind.
The sorts of things I imagine this ability might be useful for:
1. you need a table to take cover behind, boom you conjure one, course it disappears aftering taking damage so it's a one shot protection 2. you need a ladder right now! 3. you need some rope right now! 4. you need a hacksaw right now! 5. you need a sword right now! and so on and so forth. Cool ability but nothing game breaking or battle dominating.
|
| #12Hyphen_Aug 16, 2014 6:20:08 |
|
| #13Jay_Ibero_911Aug 16, 2014 7:05:15 |
|
| #14PsikerlordAug 16, 2014 22:51:19 |
|
| #15Jordan175Aug 17, 2014 2:22:32 | I saw this thread elsewhere and have the same response.
The wording of minor conjuration suggests you are just making a facimilie of the object out ot force energy. So it would not have properties like acidity or giving off heat. However if combined with a cleric of knowledge (can get training in any tool for 10 min a day) it could be a lot of fun. |
| #16Hyphen_Aug 17, 2014 4:56:30 |
|
| #17Mephi1234Aug 17, 2014 5:11:20 | Okay. First of all, we're in a fantasy setting. Trying to summon part of the SUN, something that's the domain of a GOD, and saying its entirely non-magical? I'm not down with that as a GM. Science is not a given. You cannot randomly expect gunpowder to work in a fantasy setting. So, don't expect the Sun and Moon to work the same way they do in reality. They could be actual divinely crafted ships sailed by the gods, ala Norse Mythology. It could be a portal to the Positive Energy Shell thing in the cosmology.
Even the GM ruled our real world knowledge of the sun was true in his world, and that somehow the character knew that? Super pressurized gas is not something you can observe - looking at the sun lets you see the light it gives off, mixed with portions of the corona and the like. You cannot observe enough the sun to distinguish the different parts to conjure any of it!
I'm sorry, but this isn't even metagaming; that's just blant munchkining.
Summoning lava? Well, I'd not allow it, because, to be honest, how does lava take damage? Whatever you summon with Minor Conjuration needs to break easily if it takes damage. A firebolt needs to be able to destroy the lava.
If I did allow it, even at high temperatures? 3 ft cube of it doesn't even take up a full square on a grid, easy to run around. At worst, I'd say that it would create a square of difficult terrain. Its also rapidly cooling lava, which may start fire everywhere. Not exactly a smart move for the PCs - it could kill them, destroy towns, etc. Divination magic ensures the right people get the blame for that! That's also assuming that a PC has SEEN lava. Not exactly stomping grounds for an average person starting their adventuring career.
Summoning a book from a library? You're summoning a cheap facsimilie of a book, not the real thing. You can't summon pages with writing you have seen yourself. That's like saying you can conjure a heart because you've seen the outside of a person. Now, you could summon a heart if you actually SAW the inside of a person, but just the outside? Not so much.
|
| #18Jvance420Aug 17, 2014 15:02:02 |
|
| #19Hyphen_Aug 17, 2014 15:27:25 |
|
| #20CaptnqAug 17, 2014 18:15:19 | Huh. Haven't looked at the classes that closely...
Conjure up an inanimate object Location: Up to 10 feet away, in uncontroled combat space, or in your hand. (not on your head, legs, or mouth) Size: 3'x3'x3' max. Weight: 10 max Form: Non-magical Object: Appears "Magical" (whatever that means) and glows dim light out to 5 feet. Object disappears: After 1 hour, when you use the feature again, or if it takes damage
...
I could rule the universe.
Flask of Holy water (non-magical) 2d6 damage against undead. Acid - 2d6 every round Alchemy Fire: Mere 1d4. Pfft Antitoxin A fake spellbook. Caltrops Crossbow bolts Climber's Kit Crowbar Magnifying glass Oil basic Poison 50 feet of rope 100 feet of silk rope Small Shovel Whistle Spyglass
Leather Armor Shield
Most simple weapons Light Crossbow Blow gun
5000 gp of Glowing platinum in a solid 10 poiund bar. Voodoo Doll in the likeness of whoever is standing in front of you so you can stab them in the "eyes" A belt buckle that disappears in an hour. A bucket that disappears in an hour. Bite off a piece of your fingernail, spit it at someone, and conjure a severed hand in mid air. Create a mirrored surface so you can bounce sunlight down a corridor. Make a fake mustache. Candy for kids Put a lump of poison in the bottom of a goblet. Conjure a new Bottom to cover over the poison in a sealed compartment. When the conjuration expires, the goblet returns to its normal shape, releasing the poison. Conjure smoke clouds out of your pipe. Conjure interesting shapes... like Triple masted ships sailing by. Or suggestive exotic strippers. Throw snowballs in summer.
I AM A GOD AT 2nd LEVEL!!!! MUHAHAHAHA! THE POWER OF LIFE AND DEATH ARE MINE!!!
*cough*
Sorry. little over the top there.
Uhh... so. Yeah. *scratchs the back of his neck* Yup. Broken as Hell. |
| #21NN1Aug 18, 2014 10:25:24 | I'm actually not 100% clear if rope conjuration works due to the limit of "3ft on a side". Sure you can coil rope into that area, but it is still questionable whether 50ft of rope is 3ft on a side.
I understand the idea that conjuring a book which you have not read is questionable at best, but limiting that does raise the question as to how much one's familiarity and memory of a given item influences the conjuration. For example, say I want to conjure a pocket watch. Now this seems to be well within the parameters of the spell, but it is likely that I lack an intimate understanding of the inner workings of the watch (even if I knew how to make watches, I would likely not know how the gears are set up in that specific watch if I hadn't looked inside). The spell doesn't require a craft check and isn't limited to simple objects, so, to a certain extent, it works independent to the caster's knowledge.
Of course this is different than wriiten text, but what if you HAD read a book, or at least looked at every page? Could you then summon the book if you remembered a good deal of it, but not all? What about your spell book, which you are intimately familiar with? What about an intricately carved item that you have seen? Would the carvings be identical?
|
| (Reply to #20)Bloodscythe |
|
| #23BloodscytheAug 18, 2014 11:44:23 |
|
| #24MainBrainAug 18, 2014 11:47:13 | I'd remove the the glow with Prestidigitation. |
| (Reply to #21)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #24)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #25)NN1 |
|
| #28Mephi1234Aug 18, 2014 13:54:54 |
|
| #29Hyphen_Aug 18, 2014 14:26:58 |
|
| (Reply to #27)Bloodscythe |
|
| #31Jvance420Aug 18, 2014 15:55:02 |
|
| (Reply to #22)Captnq |
|
| #33CaptnqAug 18, 2014 22:03:40 | I wanted to make this in a seperate post so as to not drown it out in noise.
"its form must be that of a nonmagical object that you have seen."
Okay, by RAW, I don't have to understand what I'm looking it, I can just MAKE it. I don't have to remember it, I just have to have SEEN it.
I get a Spyglass. I watch someone from a mile a way. He pulls out a note and starts to read it. I want to read it. POOF, I have a copy in my hand. I don't need to know what's on the note, I just need to have SEEN the note at some point. A corner. The back of it. A flash. I can conjure entrie libraries just by strolling around inside one. Create the books at my leasure.
I don't care about INTENT. This is the RAW.
Now, that said, Spellbooks are right out. Sorry, but a spellbook is magical. If anyone wants to tell me that detect magic won't detect a spellbook, then we'll discuss this point. Furthermore, you cannot conjure objects from conjured objects because they are "magical".
Still, I can think of a thousand things I can look at. Then I just have to keep a note of useful stuff to myself so I don't forget what I've seen.
There is NOTHING under RAW that requires memorization, learning entire books, skill checks, opening up the inside of something, NOTHING. I can make a tiny catapult and loat it with balls of paper to fire at people in a bar when I'm bored and all I have to so is SEE the thing. A gnome with the tinker power will be just... horrifying, actually. I'm seeing spellclocks. Tiny Spellclocks. That music box ability can EASILY be modified to become a trigger for a contingency. Oh crap, that is some serious synergy. Yup. Gnome Tinker Conjurer. I am a DM's worst nightmare.
Now, that said, I can conceed that by strick reading, one cannot change the SIZE of an object. So my idea of conjuring a giant eyeball is out, unless I've seen a giant eyeball. |
| (Reply to #33)NN1 |
|
| (Reply to #34)Captnq |
|
| #36ooSitriooAug 20, 2014 8:48:48 | The acid thing is a no go also. Acids "damage" things by taking their electrons (bases damage things by donating electrons.) Just as one of these things is "damaging" something, it is being "damaged" or weakened or losing its physical properties on its own at the same time.
Mephi also had a very good point about us not really seeing the sun either, we are seeing a reaction of gases..........well we are seeing where the reaction of gasses took place a few minutes ago, but it probably best to not open that can of worms.
I think charms and illusions are both a no go. Charm you never really saw it, illusion could conjure an illusionary version of it, if there wasn't the clause about not magic items.
I am uncertain on the book thing. As much as I don't think it should work, I think a RAW reading says it does. |
| (Reply to #32)Bloodscythe | No. It glows dim out to five feet. It's like a candle. Which means in any area with a lighting condition over dim, "washes out" the dim light. So I can pass off my bar of fake platinum in direct sunlight. - If you hand someone a lit candle, even in daylight, they'd notice the light. The light is dim, but it's still light.
It has to be summoned at 3' on a side, nothing says it has to REMAIN 3 feet on a side. So I can make a coil of rope that would fit in 27 cubic feet, then uncoil it for use. - I actually agree with this... I'd like to think a conjurer could summon some rope... how else does the "rope coming out of the hat" trick work?
Same deal for armor. That's why I said only leather armor. it has to be armor you can fold up to fit inside 27 cubic feat and still weight 10 pounds. A chain shirt is out because of the weight. Only leather armor and the shield meet the requirements. - Same as above.
Technically holy water isn't magical under 5th edition rules, unlike 3rd edition where it was a specific spell. It's a fuzzy area. RAI would be it's magical. RAW, not so much. Radiant Damage does not automatically mean the damage is magical. One could have nonmagical radiant damage. Not sure how, but you could. It's the same reason why I didn't include the healing potion. it's under the non-magical equipment list, but the specific entry lists healing potions as magical. It does not list Holy Water (same section) as magical. I'm afraid the fact that only a spell user using a "ritual" does not make it a spell (especially since a normal spell ritual is 10 minutes, and this is 1 hour. Therefore, not a spell), nor does it make it magical. True, you have top expend a 1st level spell slot, but still, by RAW, that doesn't make it magical. I will conceed the INTENTION is that it's magical. But this is a discussion of the RAW of the matter.
I will conceed that while I can make acid and alchemist fire, I need to buy the flasks seperately. The issue of WHEN the spell ends and if breaking something causes it to take hit points of damage is a fuzzy area. So rather then argue from what the RAI of it is (breaking something is a hit point of damage), it's better to just get a flask and fill it, then THROW the flask, unleashing the summoned stuff. - How would you get the summoned acid or alchemists fire into a flask? How would you keep the alchemists fire from igniting before getting it into a container? it ignites the moment you summon it outsite of an airtight container. And your only options for this spell are conjuring into your hand or into an unoccupied space. I concede that you could summon the acid over a funnel perhaps, but the alchemists fire is out.
Forgot about the glow. Yes, the glow would wash out in bright light, but... Now, it would work if the goblet was crystal and in a very well lit area and the poison was clear. That's a whole lot of "if". I conceed the gobeit idea is impractical.
The crossbow and the crossbow bolts both need the other part to work and be real. But yes, you could just carry around bolts, telling guards you are unarmed, then summon a crossbow when you need it.
For a second level power, it's broken. Seriously now. Even if I limit myself to only stuff listed in the PHB and avoid stupid things like a 10 pounds of pure plutonium, there's still a whole lot of things I can come up with. Remember, the object needs to TAKE 1 hit point. So I summon Adamantine versions. Either the hardness is awesome, or the AC needed to "hit" and cause damage is so high that the 1 hit point of damage is no longer as serious a problem. - Have you ever seen an adamantine version? This brings up an interesting point... the item conjured takes the form of something you've seen. It doesn't specify the material it is made of.
I create a computer, Hand lotion. Healing kit, Game of chess, a chain, fake manacles to pretend I am a prisoner, glasses, a beard, a purse, a dress, a jade figurine in the shape of a cat, a sundial, a fog machine, dry ice, liquid nitrogen, A pile of gunpowder, a very small corpse, A giant eyeball, a wicker hat, A lampshade, a folding chair
Three FEET on a side. HOLD on.... The chair I am sitting in is three feet EXACTLY high, then 18" by 18". SO I could make a loveseat, it it was made out of mithril.
I look inside a lock, poke a bit with a wire, POOF, I make a key. - You can't conjure a key by looking at the lock. You'd have to have seen the key itself. I cut the lock off a door, I make a copy and put it on in the broken lock's place so nobody finds out. - The lock would glow. And what about NEGATIVE weight? I get a normal balloon. I create 27 cubic feet of compressed Hydrogen inside that deflated balloon. So... doing some calculations as to how much 27 cubic feet of hydrogen would have to be compressed to so as to weight 10 pounds... and... Then let it uncompress to normal atmosphereic pressure... - Have you ever seen compressed air? You can't see air so that's out.
Yup. I could fly my own dirigible. Not a big one mind you, but large enough to float a thousand pounds, I imagine.
A fighter only get's ONE extra action an encounter as a 2nd level power. ONE. Now which would you want? The ability to make anything as long as it's small. OR One extra swing of a sword a combat. - Depends... will that one extra swing slay a giant or ogre? I doubt you can conjure the monster to death.
Go on. Think it over. Which is more awesome? Oh wait... lets check the other classes while we are at it. Barbarians get reckless attack Bards are jack of all trades Clerics channel divinity Druids get wild shape (okay. I'll give you that one. Wild shape is awesome) Monk's get a ki pool Blah Blah Blah Ya know what, Besides wild shape, nothing else comes close to the sheer USEFULNESS of Minor Conjuration. It's an attack, It's a defense. It's a drop me naked anywhere and I'll pull something out of my ass. It's roses when I forgot it's my wife's birthday. It's chocolates that never make me fat. It's a glass of wine that never gets me drunk. It's Clockwork DEMON on my shoulder. It's anything those damn Gnomes can create (Clockwork Toy, Fire Starter, Music Box) It's a ball to rolls down stairs and trigger traps. It's... - I don't know of many traps triggered by an at most 10 lb ball. But then, if you can trigger the trap that way, you could've triggered it with a rock picked up off the ground or a defeated enemy's weapon or a multitude of other things just lying around that didn't have to be conjured. I assume a fighter can manage to pick up a 10 lb rock.
Seriously. You don't think this is broken? - I think it's very useful. But an attack, not really. Even if you can manage to conjure holy water or acid, both are situational, and hard to use. Conjure a dagger? Sure, why not. Conjure armor or a shield? Better hope neither get damaged, like in combat or anything. Not many other instances where armor or shield would be crucial other than combat.
Sure, fighters "only get an extra attack" using action surge, but then they also get the ability to use any weapon, shield, and armor. Perhaps we should restrict fighters... seems OP.
So the spell is awesomely useful: the ability to conjure up a single, temporary, weak, glowing version of household items. And it doesn't scale at all. |
| (Reply to #32)NN1 |
|
| (Reply to #37)NN1 |
|
| #40ChaosmancerAug 20, 2014 17:38:50 | For me, the "conjuring a book" application only works if you have read the book.
My reasoning gets a little out there, but it is based off of a theory I read once.
There is a french painting of a pipe, under which the artist wrote "This is not a Pipe" Which is true, it isn't a pipe it is a painting of a pipe. The artist of the book I was reading took it a step further, saying it wasn't a painting of a pipe, but instead a picture of a painting of a pipe, and so on.
Each page is a page+ink in a specific arrangement. This to me, makes them all seperate objects, because you haven't seen the "object" unless you've seen all the components. I know that breaks some of our clockwork mechinations but I feel it is fair.
|
| #41YunruAug 20, 2014 17:50:04 | But you can't see inside a nucleus, it's impossible. Therefore you haven't seen the "object" for anything by your own logic. Therefore the spell's entirely useless. |
| (Reply to #39)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #40)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #43)Chaosmancer |
|
| #45YunruAug 21, 2014 9:10:43 | Still doesn't stop it working (or being situationally OP) with Divination. |
| #46Thoughts_My_AimAug 21, 2014 12:23:35 | I'm not *hugely* convinced that this actually works, and if it does then it opens up a whole new can of worms with other spells.
For example, prestidigitation states: "you can create a nonmagical trinket or an illusionary image that can fit in your hand and that lasts until the end of your next turn.
This sets *no limitations whatsoever* on the properties of the item, except that it must be nonmagical, and must fit in your hand. At no point does it say that the item, for example, must exist or that you need to have any experience of it whatsoever. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from declaring that you create - for example - "a non-magical item which, before disappearing, grants me +30 to all attributes permanently". |
| #47ZyphAug 21, 2014 12:24:34 | This would be simple for me as a DM it says you can conjure an object, but doesn't say SPECIFIC object Want to conjure an eyeglass? Sure thing, a generic eyeglass is conjured. Want to do your great grandfathers with the dragon scale casing and the deep scratch on the side? No dice. Want to conjure a piece of paper? Sure thing. Want to conjure the piece of paper being read by the enemy commander you're looking at through your spy glass? Nioe Want to conjure a key? No problem, you conjure a generic key that doesn't actually directly work on many specific lock. Want to conjure a Specific key? Not happening. This means of reading the RAW would still allow a lot of versatility and utility in the spell, but I think would deal with some of the unbalanced uses. Though admittedly I'd have no desire what so ever to have a player at my table who goes out of his way to munchkin a low level power into ridiculously stretched proportions simply because he can (referring to those that would take this serious, not someone like the Op clearly indicating this is just for fun and theoretical) |
| #48TimboramaAug 21, 2014 20:58:20 |
|
| #49YunruAug 22, 2014 1:08:48 | But the object's not blank. And it doesn't conjure an object you've seen "as you think it is", it just conjures an object you've seen. |
| #50TimboramaAug 22, 2014 4:23:39 |
|
| (Reply to #48)Bloodscythe |
|
| #52YunruAug 22, 2014 6:51:11 | Nah, they just pick up the Find Familiar spell and see that way. How d'ya think Odin did it? |
| #53Thoughts_My_AimAug 22, 2014 8:55:28 |
|
| #54YunruAug 22, 2014 9:08:32 | Unless the object you previously viewed was created by Minor Conjuration. #NonLinearTime |
| (Reply to #53)Bloodscythe |
|
| #56Thoughts_My_AimAug 22, 2014 11:13:08 |
|
| #57NN1Aug 22, 2014 12:06:47 |
|
| (Reply to #56)Bloodscythe |
|
| #59CaptnqAug 22, 2014 16:51:37 | Before I got back in this, I wanted a responce about the FAQ.
Q009.0: Are Spellbooks Magical? Q009.1: Would they show up under a detect magic? Q009.2: If non-magical, can I create a spellbook using minor conjuration? (2nd level conjuration power under wizard) Q009.3: If I can create a spellbook, how much of said spellbook would I need to see?
A009.0: I Computer searched the entire 5E PHB for the keywords "magic", "magical" and "spellbooks". No explicit mention of them being magical. So no, they aren't. Q009.1: No Q009.2: Yes Q009.3: As much as the original
2nd level power: I no longer need spellbooks because I can make them out of thin air whenever I need to study.
I can create anything I have seen. I don't need to study it, just see it. Stroll througha library, the contents are mine, one book at a time, but still.
So, for now on, all my spellbooks are 11 pounds so nobody can steal it by looking at it. All secret messages must be 11 pounds so they cannot be copied at a distance.
BROKEN. 2nd level power completely negates the weakness of a class. Sorry. BROKEN. It's the swiss army knife of 2nd level powers. |
| #60YunruAug 22, 2014 16:54:31 | ... Your spellbook was your weakness? Like to an actually-has-an-effect degree? I don't see how someone having a copy of your spellbook is that great a weakness. Sure it's tactical knowledge of what you can do but other than that... |
| (Reply to #37)Captnq |
|
| #62YunruAug 22, 2014 18:10:23 | I've had players that, when faced with a DC 40 locked door, would take the hinges off. The power of creativity isn't to be underestimated, Minor Conjuration just enables it easier. |
| (Reply to #60)Captnq |
|
| (Reply to #62)Captnq |
|
| #65Thoughts_My_AimAug 22, 2014 18:57:00 |
|
| #66Thoughts_My_AimAug 22, 2014 19:01:45 |
|
| #67YunruAug 22, 2014 19:06:27 | But all that means is RAW both specific and generic are valid. In other words, if I see a book, I could conjure that specific book, or just conjure a book.
The point I'm trying to make is why does it have to be a one or the other situation? |
| #68Thoughts_My_AimAug 23, 2014 6:38:42 |
|
| #69YunruAug 23, 2014 7:06:26 | Yeah but what I'm saying is, why does it have to be either all specific or all generic?
There is the most obvious option: Both are allowed. You want to create a specific object you've seen? You do that. Later, if you wanted to create a generic object, you do that. |
| #70Thoughts_My_AimAug 23, 2014 7:47:49 |
|
| #71YunruAug 23, 2014 8:02:16 | Well no, because that's not what I'm saying. Of course you can only look for/conjure/read either a specific or a generic. But there's no reason having seen a specific piece of paper means I can't conjure a generic piece of paper. |
| #72Thoughts_My_AimAug 23, 2014 8:12:50 |
|
| (Reply to #63)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #72)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #61)Bloodscythe |
No, they don't. They notice the FLAME. This is a lightning condition, not a flickering chemcial reaction. This is a RAW discussion, not a RAI. If we are going to understand the extent of the abuse of such a rule, you have to look at it under the rules, not what makes sense. Now, again, I have to conduct my business in direct sunlight and not let people look too hard. Someone might cup a hand on the bar and look at it closely to see if it glows. But that's why the phrase is, "a sucker born every minute."
But that's the point. The light is still there. It can be detected. Being in bright light doesn't remove the dim light (visibly magical) trait from the conjured object. In a world where conjurers can create glowing nonmagical objects left and right, many the merchant, vendor, caravan, etc would be mindful of it. As DM, you can rule that maybe they can sell their items on occassion to the unobservant or gullible businesspeople... but then, a fighter can sell fool's gold or a transmuter can sell their transmuted block of stone turned to silver. (the block doesn't even appear magical.)
The rule is an "unopccupied space" now, in game turns that means any 5' square that is not occupied by a creature, or in the area that a creature would occupy, if combat was underway. So, as long as I am not holding the object and it is in a 5' square that nobody else is standing in, I can make it appear inside a container, as long as I have line of sight. Nothing says I need to have line of effect here. So, I could conjure something on the other side of a glass window, or inside a glass vial. Of course I would need to get the flask of alchemist fire, then buy say... 99 identical empty flasks, or the fire I create won't fit inside the flask correctly.
Either way, it's still a 2d6 attack every other round, if need be. True, most cantrips would be more useful, but this is death by a thousand cuts. It's not any ONE thing you can do with this, it's the MILLION of useful things that you can do with this that makes it broken in my opinion.
As you point out... the conjurer, or really any class in the game can do more damage output than a flask of acid being conjured and then thrown... so how is this a game changer? So how is 1d6, with no modifers so threatening an ability that you feel a need to complain about it? That's even only if the wizard succeeds in a thrown improvised weapon attack.
The only way alchemist's fire would work is if you bought empty flasks that were sealed, air tight, and void of air. The flask would have to be vacuum. Otherwise, when you conjure alchmist's fire into the flask, it would mix with air and ignite.
Oh, and weapons take no damage when you hit something, so acid wouldn't take any damage when you toss it on someone. Don't care if that doesn't make SENSE, this is RAW here.
Acid isn't a weapon. It's not on the weapon table. It's an item. And items do take damage. Beside the point. Allowing a conjurer to conjure acid into a flask is one of the worst methods of combat I can think of. The object has to be on the ground away from the conjurer since the conjurer is occupying their own space and you can't summon the acid into your hand if you're holding the flask because something is already in your hand. So upon summoning the acid, you'd then need to pick up the item and make a successful ranged improvised weapon attack. Once every two rounds.
|
| (Reply to #59)Bloodscythe |
|
| #77MistingAug 24, 2014 4:31:50 | Jeez, what happened to common sense?
|
| #78YunruAug 24, 2014 5:17:32 |
|
| #79Thoughts_My_AimAug 24, 2014 8:38:24 |
|
| (Reply to #78)Misting |
|
| (Reply to #64)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #80)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #82)AquaticSpaceChicken |
|
| (Reply to #83)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #83)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #84)AquaticSpaceChicken |
|
| #87ooSitriooAug 24, 2014 22:05:05 |
|
| #88danycAug 25, 2014 4:57:37 | The following wizard specialization features impress/concern me far more than Conjurer 2:
All of them.
Well, ok, more seriously: Abjurer 10 & 14 (make the BBEG spellcaster call you 'daddy'), Conjurer 10 (removes the major weakness of powerful summons), Divination 2/14 (make BBEG auto fail save), Enchantment 14 (you win all the politics and no one knows you did it), Necro 6 (well, not really, but the 'I has army' thing is kind of annoying).
On another note, if you want to intentionally do backflips to read simple rules entries in the most exploitive ways possible, you shouldn't be surprised when you get broken results and nonsensical games where the height of intrigue is copying spellbooks and selling doorknobs. |
| (Reply to #87)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #86)Bloodscythe |
|
| #91MistingAug 25, 2014 11:39:10 |
|
| #92YunruAug 25, 2014 11:43:34 |
|
| #93Thoughts_My_AimAug 25, 2014 12:20:59 |
|
| (Reply to #91)Bloodscythe | [quot
|
| #95MistingAug 25, 2014 14:21:51 |
|
| (Reply to #95)Bloodscythe |
|
| #97ooSitriooAug 25, 2014 22:45:07 |
|
| (Reply to #96)Misting |
|
| (Reply to #98)Bloodscythe |
|
| #100Thoughts_My_AimAug 26, 2014 5:51:45 |
|
| #101BloodscytheAug 26, 2014 10:02:05 | I think I'm done with this thread. I'll wrap up with this:
I can see both arguments for minor conjuration summoning only generic versions of an object versus essentially cloned objects. The biggest proof in my mind that you conjure a generic item as opposed to a copy of an existing item is in the wording of minor conjuration. You create an object no more than 3 ft on a side that is under 10 lbs, in the form of an object you've seen. Notice the wording doesn't state that the original object has to be 3 ft on a side or under 10 lbs. If the conjurer sees 300 lbs of rope in a big pile, can the conjurer conjure 10 lbs of rope? As long as it fits within a cube no more than 3 ft to a side, why not? If a conjurer sees a 50 lb metal chest, can he conjure a 10 lb wooden chest? Why not? Color and material are actually not part of an objects form, so not only would a conjurer be able to change from metal to wood, he should, in theory, be able to conjure a wooden chest with an unnatural color, say bright pink. The problem with this approach is what keeps a conjurer from conjuring a nonmagical nearly indestructible or completely indestructible object? Since material is not part of form, can the conjurer specify the material? Can the object only be of a material that the conjurer has seen? If the conjurer has seen a bronze sword and a wooden chest, can he make a wooden sword? Leaving things up to "generics only" doesn't really simplify the issue.
I think my approach creates the greatest simplification. And I have yet seen an example of being able to conjure an exact copy of a nonmagical object you've seen that makes the ability seem broken. The only example really that has merit is conjuring a spellbook you've seen. But since it's not the conjurer's spellbook, it can't be used to prepare spells. And the conjurer would have to spend the standard amount of money to decipher and transcribe the spells from the conjured book to another. And how many spellbooks just get left lying around to be seen by whomever? I dare say, an enchanter seems even more overpowered if spellbooks are your concern... they can charm a rival wizard and literally compel the wizard to hand the spellbook over and then compel the wizard to destroy all other copies they have. Anyway, I'm out.
|
| #102ooSitriooAug 26, 2014 22:31:06 |
|
| #103MektonZeroAug 27, 2014 14:24:42 |
|
| #104OB1Aug 27, 2014 16:22:26 |
|
| (Reply to #103)Bloodscythe |
|
| (Reply to #104)Bloodscythe |
|