With Wood Elf, I point bought a set like this:
Str 8/ -1
Dex 16/ +3
Con 14/ +2
Int 8/ -1
Wis 16/ +3
Cha 12/ +1
Would you suggest something else? Including race?
The other option I had was a human with polearm master feat - just for the reaction.
8 16 14 8 16 10
Basically I am trading Darkvision, Mask of the Wild and +Cha for a Feat. I have not yet played, no idea how darkvision, mask and the polearm are viable. (Water Whip + reaction? Not sure if forced movement counts as "entering your reach")
Thanks
I am never a fan of players in my games taking dump stats down to minimums - especially two of them, just to min-max.
This array will make the character effective at what they do, sure - but a Monk with such a crap Athletics stat and who is as dumb as a post... you'll regret it at some point unless you DM is nice to you...
Caliburn wrote:
Caliburn wrote:
I favor Wis over Dex for Elements monks:
Human Variant
1 Magic Initiate - Guidance, Shillelagh, Goodberry
3 Water Whip, Elemental Attunement
4 Spell Sniper - Thorn Whip
6 Gong of the Summit
8 Wisdom
11 Fly
12 Wisdom
16 Whatever
17 Whatever, tho I like Cone of Cold
19 Whatever
Litania84it wrote:
Litania84it wrote:
"Gets his Elton John Glasses" Caaaan you feeel the trooool Tonight ?!
Seriously guys... the thread was about the Elemental monk... not about is Min/Maxing tolerable in D&D. If his DM allows it, so be it.
I believe your stats are perfect... Anyway what you need is a lot of wisdom and dexterity and as good constitution as you can afford.
I wouldn't take polearm master eventhough it sound nice to have this reaction comboed with a pulling effect from any ability (which works in my opinion.)... and Highly suggest mobility to had 10ft movement + the ability to hit and run without suffering opportunity attack from your target.
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Yes exactly, thanks Yunru I was going to post that exact text. Unbelievable attitude and straight lies from Bloodscythe....
Another way more Jediy
Human Variant
1 Magic Initiate - Guidance, Mending, Detect Evil and Good
3 Fist of Four Thunders, Elemental Attunement
4 Observant
6 Clench of the North Wind (Kinda Sithy)
8 Wisdom
11 Fly
12 Wisdom
16 Whatever
17 Whatever
19 Whatever
Miladoon wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Yunru wrote:
First realize that someone trying to make their character the best it can be in no way, and I mean in 0 possible way, means that they are metagaming. That entire basis for the rest of your post is just laughable. You either don't know what metagaming is, have the most screwed up view of the relationship between someone who likes to optimize and metagaming or you're just so biased against people who optimize that you don't even care to make sense.
And calling someone a liar when they demonstrate that they are isn't being confrontational, it's pointing out a simple fact. It's possible you find it confrontational because you don't like being called out on your lies, but that's on you.
Bloodscythe wrote:
Vahnyu wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Vahnyu wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
BRJN wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Vahnyu wrote:
You know any easy way to avoid dying? Being good at what you do.
Therefore it is not only more logical, but also more fun to pick a race that is naturally inclined towards what you want to do.
Min/maxxing and being a good RPer... It doesn't have to be one or the other.
See: Stormwind Fallacy
NOW ON TO THE ACTUAL TOPIC AT HAND..
Your build seems just fine, OP. I'd go Wood Elf and not get the Feat, at least right away. If your DM sees you getting way too many attacks, or outshining less-optimized players at the table, then your DM might lean away from triggering the Feat anyways. Best to go with the stat boost, at least until you have a pretty solid feel for the table, and what the DM likes to do.
Vahnyu wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Instead of posting your wood elf monk stats, how about work on the role you'd like to play? Your character's description. Hair color, eye color, size of family, notable friends and enemies, good and bad habits, personality traits... you want to make a better monk? Create a role to play. The numbers on a sheet of paper should be one of the least important aspects of your character, not the most important.
It's a roleplaying game, not a tactical combat game. If the only possible way you can find enjoyment in a roleplaying game is to min/max, then you're missing the point. It is an opportunity to reinvent yourself... to be a completely different person. To use your imagination and explore a fantastical and magical world. Keep in mind, that you can have entire game sessions where your stats serve no purpose... where you simply roleplay what your characer is doing. Learn how to play the game as it is intended, and discussions about min/maxing become irrelevant, because you can have fun with a randomly generated stat block as long as you get to create the story around the character.
Bloodscythe wrote:
Vahnyu wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
And for the last time, "I said it shouldn't be the only possible way you enjoy the game." is not acceptable. If that's how someone enjoys their game or not, that's their business. NOT YOURS. You don't get to say how one should or shouldn't enjoy their game. They don't need to boarden or shrink their ability to have fun with the game, because the game D&D is whatever the damn hell pleases them. End of story.
Vahnyu wrote:
Vahnyu wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
The Jedi come across to me as exceptionally agile, wise, strong, resistant with great influence and intelligence. Seems like 14+ everywhere.
Although I want Dex bonus to be as high as possible, I don't need to min max the rest.
I picked the background with Privilege Position which I believe fits the Jedi Order member well.
Perhaps people should calm down. Its perfectly possible to pick stats like that to fit a character concept, not to metagame.
The character is uneducated and feeble. It could be a child, or a hermit whose lifesyle is isolated and does not involve much exercise. Maybe the character is a little unfit, and wasn't educated normally. It could be a very cloistered monastery, with little focus on learning, or the character is self-taught and never had much of an education.
Or they're just plain small and not very bright.
Stats that happen to work well with the class do not have to be picked just because of that.
On the actual topic, I personally don't like monks using the Polearm Master feat, because they already have a bonus action attack (which is better later on) and they have potential uses for their reaction, especially if you're going to be at range.
supreme_slayer wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Vahnyu wrote:
Vahnyu wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because discussion of moderation in the forums is considered forum disruption and is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
Baiting, Trolling, and Personal Attacks are also violations.
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Again I really don't think that continuing to fall for the flame bait that bloodscythe is posting is a good idea. It's not productive and we're not even discussing what the thread is about. Stop the Hijacking and just ignore his posts.
ZickZak wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
Yunru wrote:
ZickZak wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Guys! This forum is full of guides how to optimize this and that and now when I want to read someting about monk I see only lamentation about metagaming and min/maxing. Please go into some separate thread.
And now on the topic. Jamwes has very good post here. My monk, as I am doing tai chi in real life, is more intelligent and less strong. So something like Str 8, Int 12. I recomend 16 on both Dex and Wis. If you go for Way of Shadow it is possible to have lower Wis because only one ability which uses DC would be Stunning Strike. However Stunning Strike is probably one of the best monk's abilities so it is a tough choice.
I have no experience with elemental monk yet. The Elemental way is kind of riddle for me. E.g when I compare 17th level of Open hand with Elemental: Quivering Palm vs Cone of Cold. The first one cost 3 ki and does 10d10 on SUCCEEDING Con save and the second one costs 6 Ki and doing 8d8 on FAILING Con save. Moreover lots of spell are concentration spells so you need to have higher Con to maintain them. Also lots of them are DC spells so maxing Wisdom before Dex is probably the priority here.
If you go variant human instead of wood elf there are some interesting feat choices. Mobile, Observant, Resilient (Con), Lucky. I would not go for Polearm Master as well. One very insteresting choice here is War Caster but you can't take it at level 1 (because of prereq.). Also I am not sure If I would be able to cast e.g. Water Whip as OA. Water Whip is not a spell and War Caster feat mentions only spells. But your DM may allow it.
Bloodscythe wrote:
515k4 wrote:
Elemental monk works very nicely with certain Land Druid Circles (note: Elemental Attunement and Druidcraft are basically identical) and some Cleric Domains. It's a really easy multiclass too, no more MAD than a normal monk, unlike a Warlock dip.
Yunru wrote:
-
Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.
ZickZak wrote:
Metagame thinking means thinking about the game as
a game. It's like when a character in a movie knows it's a
movie and acts accordingly. For example, a player might
say, "The DM wouldn't throw such a powerful monster
at us!" or you might hear, "The read-aloud text spent a
lot of time describing that door- let's search it again!"
515k4 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Min/maxing only happens as part of character creation, ergo can't be metagaming. Also it wasn't my definition of metagaming at all, it was yours.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Seraphex wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Seraphex wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
515k4 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
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I actually am going with the, easier to pull off, Sith theme, but it's a Neutral character anyway. Kyle Katarn uses lightning instead of jedi abilities.
I thought about all the input you guys gave me and, based on my interpretation of a Jedi, this is my final (for now anyway) build 10, 16, 12, 8, 16, 13.
I've crunched a few things, but I believe it doesn't change the game:
Deals Lightning instead of Fire damage
Mage Hand - replaces Ellemental Attunement
Shocking Grasp - Yea, it is added, but I don't feel like carrying a longbow fits the theme really and I don't see myself using it very often if at all.
Our GM doesn't use feats except if one's a human, so Magic Initiate is out of the question with an elf. With all of this being said though, I am still unsure whether or not to go with the 3lvl Warlock multiclass.
ZickZak wrote:
Ye pretty much what I was thinking.
It's just that multiclassing that I'm not a fan of. 
I'll have to think about it but I see your point. Thanks.
ZickZak wrote:
You can get a lot of Sith-ness from a Land Druid (Swamp?) or Tempest Cleric multiclass, lightning spells to add to your Monk chassis. Or for a really annoying Sith some Trickery Cleric levels would be ideal.
A more thoughtful Jedi could be represented by a Knowledge Cleric or Grassland Druid multi.
Bloodscythe wrote:
ZickZak wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
ZickZak wrote:
Using the existing monk traditions as guides, I present:
Way of the Force:
3rd: The Force
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can use your ki to duplicate the effects of certain spells and abilities.
You gain the mage hand cantrip if you don't already know it.
As an action, you can spend 2 ki points to duplicate Fist of the Unbroken Air. (I didn't see a comparable spell and the ability looked too good to pass up.)
6th: Your use of the force allows you to manipulate the minds of the weak-willed. You are able to spend 3 Ki to duplicate the effect of Suggestion without providing material components. (This is in line with Clench of the North Wind)
11th: By 11th level, you have learned to become one with the force. As an action, you can spend 4 Ki to duplicate the effect of Lightning without providing material components. (this is in line with Flames of the Phoenix). For 6 Ki, you can duplicate Chain Lightning.
17th lvl: You gain the ability to use 4 ki to duplicate the effects of the Telekinesis spell without providing material components.
Basically it's Way of the Four Elements, substituting some of the spells, and replacing elemental attunement with the mage hand cantrip. Personally, the 17th lvl ability is lackluster... Open Hand gives you Quivering Palm... easily one of the best abilities in the game, and Shadow gives you a commonly used reaction (sadly, that only triggers if you have allies). Four Elements gives you cone of cold. Telekinesis is level appropriate but kinda bleh if you're looking to powergame. Although, lifting a creature off of the ground that can't fly can be pretty powerful. Also, you currently don't have the ability to boost the damage of your spell-like abilities by spending additional Ki like you do in the Way of the Four Elements.
I went conservative so hopefully it has a higher chance of being approved. Thoughts?
Caliburn wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Well there's you talking of not having bias (which is wrong, always. There's no such thing as not having some bias), and then there's this:
I'm simply not going to limit the variety in my game to suit someone seeking to 'enrich' the game with min-maxing.
Caliburn I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but you say we shouldn't min/max because we will suffer at one point or another and then you talk about role-play.
I want to play a character with slightly lower intelligence mainly because of how it's played. Also, I don't like any of the INT based skills and I assume a character with high intelligence might be interested in at least one. If I encounter the must-roll-20 save and if I actually be lucky enough to roll that 20 and fail, well then so be it. 15 14 13 12 10 8 means we are below average at one thing, unless you expect people to put the lowest stat to where their race gets +2.
Thanks for the subclass, I'll see how it goes. Perhaps Animate Objects would be a nice spell to consider.
For offtopicers: D&D is only a game and people love different aspects of it. Deel with it. If someone likes Hack and Slash style of play (DMG p. 34) without much role-playing so be it. Let him play his or her superhero character with Hero points (DMG p. 264) and/or Epic heroism rest variant rule (DMG p. 267). No role-playing does not mean you are acting against rules and even if, does it really matter when you have fun?
That monk custom subclass actually looks very good! I would probably allow it in my game.
Yunru wrote:
Is the Fighter bad at charisma? Well then let the Bard handle it. Is the Bard bad at climbing? Have the Monk run up and send down a rope. Etc.
Being bad in an area adds to the experience, not detracts.
Stormwind Fallacy is the notion that you can't min/max and still roleplay. Caliburn isn't saying that. He might be saying that min/maxers are inferior roleplayers, but he's never said they aren't roleplaying.
Labelling his statements as "Stormwind Fallacy" isn't valid because it doesn't fit the actual discussion. Altering the actual argument presented by Caliburn in an attempt to counterargument... is that what you'd call a Strawman? I believe it is...
515k4 wrote:
Caliburn wrote:
and just to be clear, I wasn't accusing you of being one of those, I was just stating a general principle of mine
Litania84it wrote:
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Litania84it wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct.
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Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
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Alrighty then. Let's get us a link, shall we? From Source: The Stormwind Fallacy (Repost)
Relevant Text:
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy
Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.
Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game.
Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa.
Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.[...]
Conclusion: D&D, like it or not, has elements of both optimization AND roleplay in it. Any game that involves rules has optimization, and any role-playing game has roleplay. These are inherent to the game.
Vahnyu wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Alright, so after today's game, here's feedback:
The customized subclass was not alllowed, multiclassing and feats are not allowed at all, no background customization, no fluffing. Backgrounds have to fit the class, so no monk pirate, noble etc.
Thanks for the help though. I will save it and hopefully use it at some point.
Yunru wrote:
ZickZak wrote:
Then don't refer to them as Min/Maxers if you only mean a specific subset of Min/Maxers.
Custom Background aren't even optional. Outside of houserule you are allowed them.
For now it seems I'd have to be a fighter with str +2 and dex -1 for him to be satisfied. Sadly, we have 8 players so the only classes not taken are monk, bard, wizard/sorc & paladin. If I want to play Dex class, it's the first two I have to pick from. Forgot to mention there can't be 2 same classes in the party, on top of everything else.
Is there a Dex based Fighter?
Valor Bards and Sorcerers are also good as ranged Dex based weapon wielding.
Yunru wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Vahnyu wrote:
ZickZak wrote:
Yeah, what? And only one of each class? Why??? I have no problem saying unequivocally saying that you have a bad DM there. I know multiclassing and feats are technically optional, but really, why would someone disallow them? And isn't this the whole point of subclasses, that two characters can be the same class and yet work out very differently in play? And the background thing, UGH. Have you asked how these restrictions are meant to make things more fun for everyone?
Change groups if you can. Sounds like your DM is power tripping.
Yes, well, see...
OPTIMIZING
Players who enjoy optimizing their characters' capabilities like to fine-tune their characters for peak combat performance by gaining levels, new features, and magic items. They welcome any opportunity to demonstrate their characters' superiority. Engage players who like optimization by ...
- ensuring steady access to new abilities and spells.
- using desired magic items as adventure hooks.
- including encounters that let their characters shine.
- providing quantifiable rewards, like experience points, for noncombat encounters.
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
Vahnyu wrote:
515k4 wrote:
Vahnyu wrote:
1eejit wrote: