Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cj95 Sep 01, 2015 3:51:09	Im having a first world problem here folks and need some advice.     Coming back to the game after a few years, I finally managed to track down a small group of players and am about to start our first game.   The problem is that our group is quite small.   3-players and DM, and one of those players is acomplete newbie  (my wife)   The other two settled on Rogue and Druid which kinda sets me up for the primary fighter role.   Problem is I wanted to play a Monk which kinda has me worried about the survivability of our group....me in particular.   My alternate idea is for a Paladin which is more suited to the task but to be quite honest I am less than enthusiastic about running.   My stats are not too bad...we rolled them (as oppsed to standard set) and DM gave us a free +2 to assign how we wanted leaving me as follows after assigning racial bonus:     Human Paladin   S :16 D: 14 C: 14  I: 9 W:13 Ch:16  (including +2 DM points)   HP:12 AC:16 (Chainmail) Glaive as primary weapon giving 1d10+3 damage output   Not bad I guess, but.....meh     Human Monk   S:14 D:18  (including +2 DM points) C:14 I:9 W:14 Ch:13   HP: 10 AC: 16 (unarmored +dex+wis) Quarterstaff 1d8 +4   plus unarmed bonus 1d4+4   Nice...but probably semi squishy.     I have until the weekend to decide, but I must admit I have changed my mind a bazillion times. Am I missing something here?     FYI base rolls were 15 13 13 13 12 8   (add +2 to any)     Any advice would be welcome.     (Also general advice for very small groups?)
#2 Yunru Sep 01, 2015 3:58:20	Try a Narbarian. They're the frontline version of the Monk (who should never be on the frontline longer than needed). Failing that a Paladin works nicely. Monk... not so much.
#3 Yunru Sep 01, 2015 3:58:20	Try a Narbarian. They're the frontline version of the Monk (who should never be on the frontline longer than needed). Failing that a Paladin works nicely. Monk... not so much.
#4 AaronOfBarbaria Sep 01, 2015 4:13:29	Just play the monk that you wanted to play originally, there are plenty of ways to function effectively on the "front line" despite the monk appearing to be fragile (in practice, it's not really fragile at all because in 5th edition, nothing is).
#5 Yunru Sep 01, 2015 4:16:13	The Monks are one of the most fragile frontliners imaginable. With low hit dice and MADness stopping a decent Con score.
#6 Yunru Sep 01, 2015 4:20:12	My personal suggestion would be a Variant Human (Sentinel) Barbarian. You have the ability to keep enemies adjacent to you, and to minimize the damage that does to you.
(Reply to #5) AaronOfBarbaria	Yunru wrote:
#8 akr71 Sep 01, 2015 5:08:49	If you wanna play a Monk, play a Monk.  You'll be third level before you can blink and feel a whole lot less squishy - especially if you go Way of the Open Hand.  You and the Rogue can tag-team opponents, helping the Rogue get sneak attack damage.
#9 Georlik Sep 01, 2015 5:25:00	akr71 wrote:
#10 jaappleton Sep 01, 2015 5:30:26	Well there's a few things to consider.    1. That Druid. Is it a Moon Druid? If so, that Druid has the most HP in the game. Most of its forms have kinda low AC, but it's there to soak up damage while everyone else pummels the enemy. Meaning that Druid can tank. If it's a Circle of the Land Druid, well...   2. WHY are you against the Paladin? Is it the "Lawful Good = Lawful Stupid" trope? Because they abolished all that in this edition. Be a jerk if you want. Be an Oath of Ancients Paladin, or Oath of Vengeance if you want to be something different. Or do you just prefer the utility of the Monk over the Paladin's abilities?    3. Talk to the DM, and get a feel for things. If the DM is running published modules, then I do suggest something that can take a few more hits than the Monk. If the DM is going to cater encounters and challenges to the make up of the party, then by all means, be a Monk.        As far as general advice... Like you, I have a small group. Three players. Only just two weeks ago a fourth joined us (A monk, of course :P ). Our DM caters the challenges we face to our party. Originally we started as a dual wielding Fighter, Oath of Ancients Paladin, and a Totem Barbarian. And we rocked faces. But we got too comfortable, and encountered a massive horde of undead... Yeah, our party make up didn't have any AoE. That encounter was designed to challenge us. And damn did it. My Barbarian didn't make it. Turns out we were supposed to have run away, but our egos thought we could handle it. Later, the Paladin died as well.    So my advice is to round out the party a little. I think you're set on a Monk because... Well, it doesn't matter why. You're excited to play it. It's not a bad class at all (Just stay far away from Four Elements). But I do suggest you take a hard look at some other classes. Are they falling into tropes for you, and you can't think of another way to play them? The Barbarian doesn't have to be the dumb brute. It could easily be the shamanistic noble of his tribe, on a pilgrimage. Is the Paladin too much of a goody two shoes? Doesn't have to be. Nothing stops you from being a Paladin of Kord, pushing Darwinism. "Oh, the half-orcs slaughtered half the town? Should've learned to fight, pansies. Now I'll show you all how it's done."   My group is now that same dual wielding fighter, an Oath of Devotion Paladin, that Monk, and myself, a Gunslinger (I'm using the Fighter archetype that is used in Critical Role). I'm not lying when I say the Paladin's Aura has saved our lives multiple times. The Monk has helped tremendously with Stunning Strike, handing out crits to everyone.    But again, I see that we're missing things that prevent us from being a well rounded group. I look at things and see we could really, really benefit from something like a Lore Bard, or a Land Druid. Someone to control the battlefield, and debuff enemies. I know it would help. And as much as I enjoy the Gunslinger, I know it'll be awesome to shut down enemies, or grant advantage to my allies attacks. I take pleasure in knowing that I made that battle so easy. What's a bigger help? Be doing 20 damage in a round, or preventing three enemies from attacking our group? 20 damage, or granting my allies advantage on all their attacks?    It's always awesome to swing your greatsword and land a crit, and deal amazing damage. It feels good to kill an enemy. Feeling that glory. But I can feel glorious just as easily by locking opponents down, or defusing a situation based on my ungodly high Persuasion, or my empowering my allies so they can do that amazing damage and kill foes.
#11 jaappleton Sep 01, 2015 5:36:18	Also, one more thing for general advice: Learn everything you can. The rules. The system. The mechanics. Advantage, disadvantage, what grants them, what conditions do what. Learn it as well as the DM and even more so. Learn about your party members. When our Ancients Paladin died and he made a Devotion Paladin, he forgot he could use Channel Divinity to grant him +Cha Mod to his attack rolls. I reminded him, and it helped tremendously in a boss fight. By me knowing all the ways to get Advantage and Disadvantage, I helped set up the team in ways to maximize our potential. When we were escaping a crumbling tower, I reminded the Monk that he has Slow Fall. When the Fighter was about to die during battle, I reminded him of Second Wind and Action Surge.    Learn everything. Sometimes people forget what's on their character sheet, what their characters can do. Try to make sure you aren't in that scenario.
#12 Kahless Sep 01, 2015 5:43:50	I'm the kind of person that enjoys playing just about anything and filling a needed role in a party, but I know not everyone is that way, so I always say play what you want. I haven't played a monk, but I imagine you could customize it to fill a frontline nich if you need to. Your build has the same AC as the paladin, just two less HP. Not a huge difference. Just be aware you might have to adjust your play style for the party composition and play smart. If the druid is a moon druid, take turns at the front and get the rogue in there for sneak attacks.
#13 shintashi Sep 01, 2015 9:15:22	for a group that small, you should have people roll up stats instead of using Array. You will need higher attribute bonuses to compensate when facing encounters designed for larger groups. While you can NPC the role of #4, typically DM run PCs hold back to avoid being unfair, and that prevents the crazy synergy that normally occurs when four people have a chance to get good idas instead of 3.   A paladin in such a small group should probably have at least: 15 dex, 15 con, 15 strength, 10 intelligence, 13 wisdom, and 17 charisma.  A Monk would need a high dex, constitution, and wisdom, preferably 16 in all 3. Alternatively, you could have the group take two campaign breaks to train a total of 2 additional feats between adventures, i recommend once at level 4-5 and again at level 8-10. This will allow your Array stats to catch up to the values you need to sustain a 3 man party in 4 man dungeons. If you play a monk, they are basically going to be a hireling for the first 10 levels. 2d4+4-6 damage per round is 12-14. When using light weapons, you will get 2d6+3 (15 cap) possibly 2d6+6 - i haven't looked at it in a while but you can hire a bum with a good dex and give them two weapons for 2d6+3 per round, so im not really kidding about the hireling thing.   people say all sorts of fluffy things about classes, but the monk was the only character that went to 0 hp 3 times in one session when i was in someone's game a few weeks ago.
#14 jaappleton Sep 01, 2015 9:53:41	Fellow board member and Wizard handbook writer Treantmonk wrote the following, and I absolutely believe it: In this edition of D&D, damage prevention is better than healing after the fact. That's one of the best pieces of advice I can give for playing 5E.
#15 eyrieking Sep 01, 2015 11:49:30	I would recommend you go monk if thats what you want. The difference between a d8 and a d10 is not much (only about 1hp per level, 2 at level 1), and monks have alot of ways to avoid or reduce damage (deflect missiles, stunning strike, evasion, the ability to stealth well). Paladins, on the other hand, have the defense style (if you want it), some control spells, the amazing aura of protection, the potential for magic armor, and some oath features.    That said, paladins are really cool IMO, and do lots of damage with their smites (although early game have very few spell slots to work with). If you do go paladin, consider staying as a human and grabbing a feat (Great weapon master, polearm master are my recommendations) because paladins love ability score improvements. If you still aren't excited about paladins, don't make one.      PS. I wouldn't shove all of the following information down the druids throat, just ask them if they plan on being a frontliner (after level 1), and if they want some tips. If they say yes, here are a few tips you can give him/her.    Moon druids can be very frontliny. At level 2, druids have about 70 temporary hp per short rest using their wild shapes. At level 3, druids have a spell called barkskin, which is a concentration spell that sets their AC to 16. This makes them way tankier (sets brown bears AC from 11 to 16), but of course competes with damaging/control concentration spells. Druids then slowly lose frontlining capabilities with their wild shape until they reach level 7, where they get the (almost universally considered to be OP) spell polymorph. This lets them turn into any beast whose challenge rating is equal or lower to your level (probably a T-rex at level 8) which have a ton of temp hp, and does a bunch of damage. Plus, you can be a freakin T-rex.    If your druid does plan on being a frontliner, suggest to them that they pick up either the reisilient (con) or warcaster feats (warcaster is better early and lets the druid cast all spells with a shield without worrying about components, while resilient is better late for the high bonus). This lets them maintain concentration on the spells that make them hard to hit.
#16 Yunru Sep 01, 2015 11:54:31	Again though, the only problem with monks is there main damage mitigation is to not be on the frontlines. The Barbarian really is the Monk's frontliner brother, however.
#17 Elfcrusher Sep 01, 2015 12:15:53	eyrieking wrote:
#18 cj95 Sep 01, 2015 23:34:49	I appreciate all the points of view on this although I admit it hasnt made the decision easy.   I dont mind Paladins, and know how to avoid the Lawful Stupid trap, but was only wanting to try something different seeing as I've been down that hack and slashy route before.     In the end I think Im goign to settle on the Paladin and give it a Neutral Good, Desert Prophet/Arabian flair for RPG purposes. In reality I only play this game for the RPG aspects and will always have more fun with a mediocre 'interesting' character over a Min/max statistics creation.        Here's hoping the first session goes well, and maybe next time around I can try something different.
#19 FrogReaver Sep 02, 2015 1:03:23	My advice on the monk is more about tactics and less about build.   1.  Monks are one of the easiest characters to kite enemies with due to their high speed.  Keep a short bow handy.  Open up combat with it and kiting often. 2.  Use the monks speed to intercept enemies as they get near your other party members and melee them from there. 3.  Don't forget about being able to spend ki for a bonus action dodge.  In fact, due to the make up of your party I would plan on primarily using this ability.   To put the bonus action ki dodge ability into perspective.  Most enemies have around a 50% chance to hit you.  Disadvantage drops that to 25% and makes you nearly impossible to crit.  Basically every 3 or 4 uses of bonus action dodge comes out close if not better in terms of damage mitigation that a barbarians rage damage resistance.  (Basically you will come out a little better than half damage).   Further, by level 3 you can expect about 9 uses of that ability in the day if you want (which should pretty close to a barbarians rage resistance).  Yes the monk has less hp but the monk can more easily open the combat up at range and kite enemies the first turn or 2 before needing to engage in melee.   4.  Shadow monks gain the ability to cast darkvision at level 3 for the low low cost of 2 ki points.  This opens up the ability to start as a human and still get darkvision easiliy when needed.  The extra feat that the human gets can be used for the healer feat which greatly increases your survivablity and your parties survivability.   In short, the monk if played tactically smart will be fine.  You just can't play straight up as a full melee type character in the early levels.  You have to play more as a skirmisher till about level 5-8 when you get enough ki to bonus action dodge and stun very well.