Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Lord_Phobetor Sep 06, 2014 9:15:11	Am I mis-reading the rules, or does the monk get multiple attacks waaaay sooner than the supposed master of melee? By way of either Flurry of Blows and Extra Attacks, a monk can make 4 attacks per round at 5th level, something the fighter can't do until what...20th level?
#2 ppaladin123 Sep 06, 2014 10:24:03	Lord_Phobetor wrote:
#3 mellored Sep 06, 2014 10:29:56	The fighter is the best at fighting.   The monk does get some nice options, like AoE blasts, and save-or-die.
(Reply to #3) reddaemon	ppaladin123 wrote:
#5 1eejit Sep 06, 2014 11:22:19	The monk transitions into more of a controller at later levels with stunning blow and knockdown/silence/hold person rather than scaling to keep up with fighter on pure damage. Monks will also use hit and run for survivability with their massive speed.
(Reply to #4) 2Chlorobutanal	reddaemon wrote:
#7 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 06, 2014 16:14:08	Lord_Phobetor wrote:
#8 Jell_Moo Sep 06, 2014 18:42:41	Using attacks per round as the only measure for success is kind of silly. A key thing to remember is that a Fighter is better equipped to stay in melee for a greater length of time than the Monk is. Monks survive a lot of the time via their incredible mobility, which is something that they have to sacrifice their Flurry of Blows to achieve.   The Monk isn't better than the Fighter in melee, it is just different.
#9 Ansbach Sep 06, 2014 19:00:46	Jell_Moo wrote:
#10 obsid Sep 07, 2014 16:59:35	That fighter v monk comparison was also wrong because it forgot to add dex mod to every unarmed attack. Monk is the only class that gets its primary attack mod added to damage multiple times a round (in addition to the multi attacks all combat classes get) and that is what turns it into a striker. Some barbs can do it bit it requires exhaustion and so can't be done every fight. A monk using
#11 Kalani Sep 07, 2014 17:31:57	obsid wrote:
#12 Rancid_Rogue Sep 07, 2014 17:41:59	Monks are awesome. Stunning Strike will simply shut down a significant percentage of big bad guys, who can't hide behind a screen of mooks to avoid it because, you know, Monk mobility. Open Hand technique can be full of win in various scenarios, too. Monks would be overpowered if they kept up with Fighters in terms of pure DPR.
#13 obsid Sep 07, 2014 20:51:50	Yes there are other classes that can use their mod damage more then once with the right skills, but none of them even come close to the damage that a monk can do after level 5 (before level 5 a two weapon fighter/ranger speced for two weapon fighting is comparable).   A lvl 1 fighter/ranger with two weapon fighter style, is very similar to the monk in terms of damage, and AC.  The fighter wont get any shield for extra AC, wont have a big two handed weapon for direct damage.  The figher will use a handaxe, scimitar, short sword in each hand.  If they use a scimitar,short sword they can even use dex focus for attack and AC like the monk.  The monk will do 1d8+mod damage on the main attack and 1d4+mod on the off hand attack for a total average of 7+2xmod.  The fighter/ranger will do 1d6+mod in both attacks for a total of 7+2xmod damage.  The fighter will get heavy armor, say chainmail for 16AC or scale mail (14+2 dex =16AC), and the monk will get high dex (say +3 mod of 15 base +2 racial) and wis (say +3 mod of 15 base and +1 racial) for 16 AC.  Fighter gets a slight advantage with second wind and 1d10 hit dice rather then 1d8.   But now look at what happens at 5th level.  Both of the fighter/ranger and the monk get a second attack, but the monk’s off hand attack is now 1d6+mod and without ki it will be 1d8+mod, 1d8+mod, 1d6+mod, for a total of 12.5+3xmod damage.  With Ki add an extra 1d6+mod for a total of avr 16+4xmod damage.  The two hand weapon fighter/ranger is still going 1d6+mod, 1d6+mod,1d6+mod = 10.5+3xmod damage.   The monk with ki spamming flurry of blows every round is going to be out damaging just about every melee fighting class out there (other than the rogue which is more situational then the monk, and the barbarian who uses frenzy but cant keep it up every fight).  The monk isn’t going to be as sturdy as other melee fighting classes (other than the rogue).  The ability to knock multiple foes prone or push them is just an added bonus.
#14 Kalani Sep 07, 2014 22:04:49	I think you are overestimating the monks performance, and underestimating the abilities of other classes. A monk can potentially hit 5x with their attacks. This is not guaranteed, and those who calculate DPR usually account for misses in their DPR calculations.   Fighters OTOH, can attack up to 8x each round - 4 on average. They also have feats and other abilities which further boost their DPR potential, from fighting style to GWM and Polearm Master.   A fighter using a glaive and the GWM and polearm master feats can attack up to 9x in a single round, 5 on average. The fighters damage in this example (not counting misses) maxes out at 4d10+1d4+75, or 8d10+1d4+155 if using action surge. If we make said fighter a Battle Master, they could easily throw another 6d12 damage on top of that (assuming they want to blow all their superiority die in one round) - while a Champion would have increased criticals.   The monk OTOH, is dealing a maximum of 5d10+25. Advantage fighter, even with the occasional miss due to GWM.    If we remove feats from the equation - which skews the comparison in favor of the monk, which lacks any feats which complement their abilities... The advantage is still in the fighters favor. If you replace a glaive with a greatsword, in a no-feats game - you get the following:   8d6+20 or 16d6+40 if using action surge. Again, with the 6d12 floating superiority die for added damage.    This is further exaccerbated by the fact that the greatsword fighter in the above example will miss far less than the glaive-wielder above, as such a character lacks the -5 penalty to hit that GWM provides.   These examples also discount the fact that monks are MAD, requiring points in both DEX and WIS in order to fuel their abilities, while the fighter can go pure STR, and has 2 additional ABIs/feats to help round out their stats.
(Reply to #14) obsid	Kalani wrote:
#16 Kalani Sep 07, 2014 23:58:57	obsid wrote:
#17 Veleria Sep 08, 2014 1:21:25	monk has a limited amount of Ki for that extra attack. A battle master fighter has 4 Superiority dice which never miss so while the monk has some extra swings from 5 - 10 at 11 the fighter will jump ahead comfortably and never look back. By then the monk will have other cool tricks but the fighter is not to be underestimated.
#18 Kalani Sep 08, 2014 1:43:25	Veleria wrote:
#19 Veleria Sep 08, 2014 1:58:25	Perhaps a simplification but I don't think it was an exaggeration. I was simply matching the OPs whiteroom expectations. In actual play there are many more variances including turning a miss into a hit and creating extra off turn attacks as well or granting advantage and even letting a rogue attack. Since many of the superiority dice trigger on a hit it is fair to say that if the intent of yeh player is to not have them miss then they never miss. A monk would have to spend KI before te attack roll and risks missing on the attack.
(Reply to #19) Ashrym	Veleria wrote:
#21 2Chlorobutanal Sep 09, 2014 6:16:47	Yeah, but a Battlemaster gets 4 dice at level 3, when a Monk has 3 Ki.  As the Monk's Ki goes up, the Battlemaster gets a few more dice and also more attacks in general than the monk.  At high levels, you're look at a Monk's 2 attacks + 2 bonus action attacks (costing resources) versus a Fighter's 3-4 attacks and probably 1 bonus action attack from a feat or feature.   Superiority dice recharge on short rests, just like Ki.
(Reply to #21) Ashrym	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#23 mellored Sep 09, 2014 12:55:43	Monks get proficency in ALL saves.   Fighter's can do that.
#24 obsid Sep 09, 2014 14:54:44	the monk starts off in levels 1-11 building as a striker, doing more damage then a figher but with lower hit points.  After level 5 he starts to transition to more controller (with the stun saves and the prone/push saves), and then even more so after level 11 as he almost stops gaining extra damage and just adds lots of ki for extra stunning or other controllery abilities.  I think it would be intresting to see a lvl11 Monk/3+ warrior (getting action surge and fighting style dueling and going champion for extra crits).
#25 smbakeresq Sep 09, 2014 16:33:53	Just a few quick points   Fighters will get magic weapons, monks have always lagged behind because thier unarmed strikes didn't get the same pluses. those same weapons will also have some thing else, energy, keen, etc that those unarmed strikes won't. monks can't add reach easily. sometimes you attack monsters where contact injuries you, this hurts the monk. If your monk isn't going after the back line softies you are doing it wrong.  What do you think the movement is for? fighters who use the champion style will get soft regeneration and can hit those game changing crit hits a lot. it doesn't seem there are a lot of good feats for monks, fighters face tough choices since all of them look good. monks are kind of forced into pumping both DEX and WIS, you really need both. monks are adaptive characters, good in many situations, fighters are not but are very good at what they do.     they seem pretty even to me, just different.
(Reply to #25) Ashrym	smbakeresq wrote:
(Reply to #22) 2Chlorobutanal	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #25) Chaosmancer	smbakeresq wrote:
#29 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 11, 2014 7:23:46	Ashrym wrote:
#30 Timborama Sep 11, 2014 10:45:06	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
(Reply to #29) Ashrym	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
(Reply to #30) Ashrym	Timborama wrote:
#33 Timborama Sep 11, 2014 11:26:11	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #33) Ashrym	Timborama wrote:
#35 teron82 Sep 12, 2014 11:44:43	Ok not going to read the debate after the first 20 posts, but from that segment it seems what most people are missing is that this is an RPG. This is not 4e where combat is really all that matters. People need to stop comparing classes to fighter. Fighter wins at combat...that's what he does. But outside of combat, fighters are BORING cuz they are virtually worthless. They might be able to chase someone down or climb a wall, but really this is where most other classes shine--in utility. Yes fighters don't necessarily get fewer skills than monks now (which i think is silly personally) but even so, a monk is much more likely to have higher skill modifiers for most skills in addition to class features (slow fall, tongue of the sun and moon etc). We cannot look at purely DAMAGE of a class to consider it balanced, nor does 5e work under the premise of 4e with "roles." 4e ws a far step away from traditional D&D to which 5e is trying to return. There are not roles as they existed in 4e. If you need to look at some form of roles in classes because of the inundation of mmorpg games which have broken concepts of the party make up, consider that utility is a role as is damage and defense and even range. Monks do well in all aspects except range. Fighters can excel beyond others in either damage or defense, or do wel lat range, but they cannot do well in utility. I refer to utility as out of combat usefulness, not the ability to knock someone down or cause conditions.
(Reply to #35) Ashrym	teron82 wrote: