Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 HamburglarTime Aug 10, 2015 6:37:00	I was considering a Warlock/Fighter. The rationale being I'll get Eldritch Blast/Mage Hand and Witch Bolt/Hellish Rebuke with a Fighter's tanking abilities. My question: Should I start as a Fighter then MC to Warlock then back to a Fighter for Levels 3-20 or start as a Warlock then MC to Fighter for 2-20? These are my roles using 4D6 - 1D6: 15,15,13,12,12,10. I could Half-Elf for the +2 Charisma for the Warlock and then pick +1 STR and +1 DEX.  Thoughts? Thanks.
#2 rgoodbb Aug 10, 2015 7:10:38	I'm no expert in when to take levels (usually ask for advice myself), but a couple of things stand out to start with;   Witchbolt does not seem to be as good as it first appears by a lot of people's accounts   Fighter level first for Con saves that will help with any concentration spells you take like Hex.
#3 Polaris Aug 10, 2015 7:12:56	HamburglarTime wrote:
#4 HamburglarTime Aug 10, 2015 7:27:39	The idea of Fighter/Warlock/Warlock/Fighter to 20 makes a lot of sense. What if I started as a High Elf Fighter and used the Wizard cantrip Fire Bolt? It is similiar to Eldritch Blast but without the ability modifier. I know that character is cliche but I suppose its the same principle without having to wait until level 4 to get what I want.
#5 Yunru Aug 10, 2015 7:42:41	... why? Warlock is going to be your primary casting class so Cha is going to be your casting stat. Not using Agonizing Blast and Eldeitch Blast is hamstringing yourself.
#6 HamburglarTime Aug 10, 2015 7:49:44	I meant starting as a High Elf Fighter and NOT MC to Warlock at all. Is Eldritch Blast/Agonizing Blast that much better than Fire Bolt?
#7 Mommy_was_an_Orc Aug 10, 2015 8:20:17	HamburglarTime wrote:
#8 mellored Aug 10, 2015 10:47:24	HamburglarTime wrote:
#9 Veleria Aug 10, 2015 10:58:51	You can achieve the same thing by using a bow. Fighter with crossbow expert feat will have 2 attacks at level 1, 3 at level 5 and 4 at level 11. if you raise your dex you will be highly accurate. you can still fight just fine in melee with a rapier. I am not sure what you think you are gaining with eldritch blast or some other cantrip for range.
#10 Mommy_was_an_Orc Aug 10, 2015 11:19:06	Veleria wrote:
#11 mellored Aug 10, 2015 11:35:42	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#12 Geistrin Aug 10, 2015 12:09:41	When you distil it down, you don't really want "Eldritch Blast/Mage Hand and Witch Bolt/Hellish Rebuke with a Fighter's tanking abilities."  You really want a character with good at-will ranged capability and the ability to (avoid) take a hit.   There are a number of ways to accomplish each of those goals, but only a few of each that don't hinder the other.   Let's start with doing decent to good at-will ranged damage.  The best ways to accomplish this are either with ranged weapons, or Eldritch Bolt powered by a good Charisma score.  In either case, in order to make good use of ranged attacks while next to an enemy, you will need the Crossbow Expert feat.  Of the two options, ranged weapons will do better in the end because you can find a Long Bow +3 but you cannot find an Eldritch Bolt +3, and weapons have more feat and class feature support.  However, maxing out ranged weapon abilities requires significant investment in class features and feats on top of having a high DEX (or maybe STR).  Also, in order to make the most of action economy by making an attack with your bonus action, you probably need to stick to the Hand Crossbow and the Crossbow Master feat, or have access to the 5th level Ranger spell Swift Quiver.  Meanwhile, Eldritch Bolt caps out with a fairly minor investment in Warlock levels and having a high CHA, although the ceiling of it's power is well behind a capped out Hand Crossbow user.  Ranged weapons can ultimately give great power for great investment, or Eldritch Bolt can give good power for relatively mild investment (IF you are a CHA class).    Bottom line for at-will ranged damage: Be a ranged focused martial character with high DEX/STR, or a 2nd level warlock with high CHA.   The other thing you want is the ability to avoid damage, probably via high AC.  The lowest investment way to get high AC is to have proficiency in armor + shield and enough DEX/STR to get the full benefit of the chosen armor.  Shields are a very important part of potential AC because +X shield enchantments exist, and their benefit cannot be easily replicated by other options.  Fighters, Paladins, and some Clerics offer proficiency in heavy armor + shield, which requires no DEX investment, but some STR investment.  Barbarians, Valor Bards, Rangers, and Favored Soul Sorcerors offer medium armor + shield, which requires some DEX investment to max (usually 14 DEX, 16 if going for Med Armor Master), and probably a little STR if your DM enforces encumbrance rules.  Note that while Mountain Dwarf gives a racial proficiency in Medium Armor, it does not give proficiency in shields, making it's potential AC signicantly lower than other means of obtaining proficiency in Medium Armor.   Beyond armor for AC, you are looking at feats and class features to up your survivability.  But you want not just survivability, but TANKING, which is a different thing.  That generally means control and taking hits rather than just avoiding being attacked.  Notable features and feats to that end are Barbarian Rage (especially bear barbs), Monk Dodge on a bonus action, Evasion from Rogue/Monk, Polearm Master feat, Sentinel Feat, Rogue Uncanny Dodge, and others.  Because many of those are class features, it becomes harder to fit them into your character build, and generally delays obtaining other level based benefits.   Another notable complication is Hand Crossbows (the only ranged weapon with easy access to an attack as a bonus action) requires two hands to use (loading property), making its use mutually exclusive with using a shield.  This means your AC (and thus ability to tank) will suffer.  Using a hand crossbow also means you give up one of your most fundamental tanking options: Opportunity attacks.  All this means that if you truly want to tank, hand crossbows (and thus top end shooting ability) are probably out.  An alternative would be to use a melee weapon that is also a ranged weapon, give up on bonus action attacks, and throw your melee weapon when needed.  The obvious problem with this is melee weapons make poor ammo unless you have some magic weapon that automatically returns after each throw.  Since many throwable melee weapons are STR based, you could avoid needing DEX and just wear heavy armor + shield along with your one-handed, throwable, STR-based melee weapon.  Fighters excel at this approach, and Paladins can ok as well, but cannot use some of their features with non-melee attacks.   Another way to keep both high AC and the ability to do at-will damage is to be a 2nd level warlock with proficiency in armor + shield through feats or multiclassing (Cleric, Valor Bard, or Favored Soul Sorceror are standouts).  The warlock only needs one free hand to cast Eldrtich Blast, and can use a shield in the other.  I feel this is the lowest investment for the return if you want both ranged power and high AC, but only if you are a CHA based class (bard, warlock, sorceror).   I'm currently playing a Bard X/Cleric 1/Warlock 2 that is doing this very thing.  Not high enough level to report much, but it looks promising.  The biggest thing I will give up will be my 18th level Magical Secrets (no Wish), but it offers many other worthwhile benefits that I feel are worth it.   TLDR: If you want both high AC and decent ranged damage, you should look to either an armored warlock or a martial character based on thrown weapons (probably a Fighter or Fighter/Rogue), and either needs the Crossbow Expert feat to hang in melee.  Both of these allow use of a shield, which is a bigger deal than most think (up to +5 AC).
(Reply to #11) Yunru	mellored wrote:
#14 Geistrin Aug 10, 2015 13:29:02	Yunru wrote:
#15 ovinomancer1981 Aug 10, 2015 13:29:19	Hey HamburglarTime, I can only speak from my own experience; It entirely depends on what you want to do. I am currently playing a Warlock/Fighter myself. But I took the more strength route. With the Fiend pact and Pact of the Blade, you can be incredible tanky due to the insane of temp. HP you get due to Armor of Agathys. And when that runs out you can utilize the Fiendish Vigor ability, basically ensuring you keep standing for quite a while without needing much healing.   I only took one level of Fighter for the the armor profiency and great weapon fighting, but you could go for 2 for a nova turn, or even 3 for the combat superiority thing if you decide to go that route. However if you go that route it will severly eat into your spellcasting from your warlock and I think only taking two levels of warlock for 2 invocations, Eldritch Blast and 2 spells (one probably being curse since you can use that with melee attacks aswell) and an extra cantrip. This will eat into when you reach ability increases and second attacks though, unless you find some way to keep your charisma on par aswell (since Eldritch Blast scales on character level and not warlock level, so you can still have two ranged attacks at level 5 etc). None of the pacts really add much this way (since the Fiend ability is charisma + warlock level), but some temp HP is more than nothing I guess.   The other approach is to, as counter-intuitive as it may seem, to go only one level of fighter  and the rest go full out warlock. The downside is that you get your second melee attack one level later (but again this can be cancelled out by Eldritch Blast), and get your ability/feats one level later (and vs other spell casters your next spell level one level later). In the end you will probably end up with way more hit points than a warrior (due to the temps), and do way more damage than a normal warlock due to the shield retaliate spells, hex and great weapon fighting. You could even add a bit on top of that by taking the Great Weapon Expertise feat. However make sure that you get buffed before you use the -5 attack option :P   Lastly, you could go for a more dexterous fighter type with 2 one handers, but it doesn't seem you want to go that route.   Either way you choose the go, the warlock/fighter thing is quite good, but requires quite a bit of planning. You'll always be lacking one level behind everyone else, in spell level/attacks, but get higher damage in return.
(Reply to #14) Yunru	Geistrin wrote:
#17 mellored Aug 10, 2015 14:09:27	if you have a reliable means of getting OA's, warcaster, and crossbow expertise (to negate the diavantage), then yes. assuming the errata allows it. but that takes teamwork and with the same teamwork, and resources you could proabaly do more other things. like a commanders strike+ rogue. hmm... perhaps greater invisibility and cunning action to constanly hide next to enemies... that was something i did alot in 4e.
#18 Yunru Aug 10, 2015 14:13:34	Warcaster, a pact weapon with reach and a movement spell (Dissonant Whispers?) is all you need. Bonus points if there's a Rogue in the party.
#19 mellored Aug 10, 2015 14:47:56	if you hit with dissonance, then you do moderate damage + 3d6. but if you miss, you do none. factoring in accuracy, it's not not great. friendly rogues don't mind though.
#20 TheBigHouse Aug 12, 2015 9:24:50	mellored wrote:
#21 mellored Aug 12, 2015 11:08:04	TheBigHouse wrote:
#22 TheBigHouse Aug 12, 2015 10:48:39	mellored wrote:
#23 mellored Aug 12, 2015 11:07:17	TheBigHouse wrote:
#24 TheBigHouse Aug 12, 2015 11:32:57	mellored wrote: