Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MaximumPain May 08, 2015 5:31:39	After looking at the character creation system it seems to me that multiclassing is not worth it. Sure you gain some interesting tricks and probably experience a level of two of really good synergy between your classes. But at the top levels you lose some of the highest level tricks of each class and can never get the level 20 abilities. I can see doing it for roleplaying purposes of course but I think you get better characters by sticking to one class. Thoughts?
#2 MaximumPain May 08, 2015 5:54:59	The level dip guide seems to answer a lot of my questions. Some interesting possibilities but still with the potential to miss some of the high level tricks ect....
#3 mellored May 08, 2015 6:14:33	You lose power, but gain versatility.
#4 QwertyAzerty May 08, 2015 6:25:54	depend on your class. Sorcerer should NEVER reach elvel 20 since level 20 is empty, might as well dip 2 level in wizard divinor or 2 level in cleric for the extra cantrip, spell level 1 and some domain abilities (I like trickery since teh blessing is not wisdom dependant) instead of that level 20 ability.   Yes a fighter loose it's 4th attack and this is HUGE. Yes a paladin loose his angel form and this is HUGE, Yes a barbarian loose it's 24 strenght/24 constitution and this is also HUGE. But ranger, monk, bard, sorcerer... they loose nothing since what they receive is worthless.   Then think about it, a fighter 11 with 3 attack, with 3 level of rogue assassin (auto crit on surprise attack), and 6 level of shadow monk to teleport. I call this 6 auto crit attack (since if you stealth, then teleport behind the target, he'll be surprise) could this be worth loosing a 4th attack? if you can kill the biggest baddest ennemy on the first round? And if your DM is nice, your surprise start AFTER you teleported so you still have your bonus action for an extra 2 flurry of blow attack dealing an additional 2 critical hits.   But yes to efficiently multiclass in 5e can be very hard and require a lot of planning. This build here I made it in 2 minutes, and I'm sure there is multiple problem with it that will require a few hours to iron out. Determining which class to take first (probably rogue for the extra skills) can also be a pain, and untill your basic build is made, you'll feel underpower (if you take your first level as a rogue, then 6 level of monk, you,ll get your 2nd attack at level 6 while everyone else gain it at level 5
#5 SpedGuy May 08, 2015 6:33:35	Effective characters can be made with extensive multiclassing but you have to keep an eye on design goals... Sure your Sorc 1/Warlock 4/Sorc +3/Fighter 2/Sorc +4/Rogue +3/Sorc +3 can be consistent Damage as the master of the Eldritch Blast and good at a few skills but... Not good at a whole lot else and certainally more akin to an 'archer' than a 'caster' in terms of versatility; which is OK if that was your goal in mind
#6 MaximumPain May 08, 2015 7:01:45	I can see it working with certain combinations. One major issue would be stats. Some classes require tottaly different stats to be effective. I wanted to build a shadow monk assasin but to get the invisibility requires level 11 and by then you have passed on many extra sneak attack dice and some stat bonus/feats from teh rogue table. A barbarian sorcerer with draconic origin and unarmored defense seems interesting until you look at needing charisma strength (unless you finesse) dex and con to be resonable. It seems like one would look longingly at the next bump off the class chart you just missed wheather its a spell of the next level of a feat stat bump.....
#7 Mommy_was_an_Orc May 08, 2015 7:09:20	A lot of the problem is also practical play. What can look awesome at say X level was often subpar to horrible from levels 5-X-1 levels. Eldritch Knight 11/Wizard 9 as an example. When do you start getting Wizard levels? When do you stop investing in Wizard levels? Sure, the level 20 is interesting - 3 attacks + 5th level spells + 6th level spell slots, but how do you get to 20th without realizing at some point you would have been better off for most of it simply being either an EK or a Wizard?
#8 QwertyAzerty May 08, 2015 7:23:49	MaximumPain wrote:
#9 durntaur May 08, 2015 8:54:41	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#10 Coredump00 May 08, 2015 9:37:06	Like many things... it depends.   Some character concepts work better via multiclassing Some high level class abilities are not all that great Even if they are, you don't get them until level 17-20...... thats a long time to wait. MCing can be helpful *much* earlier than that Many campaigns never get past lvl 15 It depends on which class features you find important/useful.     That said, there are plenty of concepts and classes that do just fine as a single class.  There are trade-offs to MCing, and sometimes its just not worth it.  I tihnk that is a sign of a well designed game system.     I can't find a good reason to MC my paladin. But my Archer is MCing almost immediately pretty evenly, and might grab 3 lvl from a third class My wizard is grabbing 2 levels of Warlock for Disguise self invo and Armor of Agathys, then finishing wizard
#11 Patron1972 May 08, 2015 10:24:53	MaximumPain wrote:
#12 lall May 08, 2015 10:29:25	MaximumPain wrote:
#13 Mommy_was_an_Orc May 08, 2015 10:41:51	lall wrote:
#14 lall May 08, 2015 10:51:44	I agree there is definitely some fine print. Dipping does slow the progression down. Concentration spells compete. Bonus actions compete. OTOH, if a sorcerer grabs a level of cleric early, the +2 to AC via shield proficiency and +2 to AC from Shield of Faith (when used in the right situation) can help significantly during that slow build up.
#15 Omnilicious May 08, 2015 11:11:23	I find this varies quite a bit through class but overall it is evident that a pure class build is thoughfully constucted to remain potent while multi-classing (as others have stated) adds to versatility or even specialization through min/maxing.   A class like a druid (especially Moon Druid) gains to lose a great deal through multi-classing and I have yet to find a reason to. Synergistic classes like Warlock and Bard mix very well however but without testing more I cannot confirm if any build is especially more powerful than each core class alone. Great effort appears to be made regarding balance in this edition (there will always exploit builds if interpreting rules beyond reason is the priority). Older editions tended to have very weak classes and that was always an issue when dealing with purists vs min/maxers. 5E appears to be a step in the right direction even though many of the balance and mechanic changes are obviously inherited from mmos and other games which sort of erks me but if it works ... who cares I guess.   I allow great freedom for players but draw the line when the intent of a rule or concept is usurped by unreasonable interpretation and stacking. Rules are not infallable and are meant to be adjusted, ignored or changed upon situation.
#16 QwertyAzerty May 08, 2015 12:08:30	durntaur wrote:
#17 AaronOfBarbaria May 08, 2015 21:09:19	Is it worth it?   The answer, in my opinion, is simple: Depends on what you assign worth to.   If you only assign worth to raw potency, then multi-classing is very rarely, if ever, going to feel worth it to you. If you assign worth to mechanical versatility or the ability to fine-tune your concept by blending different classes, then multi-classing is worth it more often (but oddly enough, not always).
#18 Kalani May 09, 2015 9:15:16	I am currently playing a Moon Druid 2/Barbarian 1 whose job is to act as the primary wall (tank) for the party. The character is built around exploiting the "bonus" HPs gained from wildshape, plus my increased size in order to reduce strain on party healing resources.   Combat Wildshape + Rage: Wildshape offers renewable bonus HPs. Combined with Rage, effectively doubles the HPs of my wildshape forms against bludgeoning/piercing/slashing.   Large Size + Sentinel (Feat): When allied with a High AC character (who lacks Sentinel), that gives the party a 25ft front line. Any creature attempting to get behind me could have its speed drop to 0. Any creature that hits me effectively wastes its turn (due to Wildshape + Rage). Any creature that attacks my ally has a high(er) chance of missing, and suffers a reaction attack from me, which is often 2d6+6 damage (Dire Wolf/Brown Bear + insignia of claws + rage bonus). If I am in Dire Wolf form, this also carries a moderate chance of dropping the target prone. Wildshape + Unarmored Defense: My AC is usually between 13 and 14 in wildshape thanks to the barbarian Unarmored Defense.   Level Advancement: My character is effective from as early as 2nd level, and gains frequent increases in power. Druid 2: Combat Wildshape Druid 2/Barbarian 1: Rage, Unarmored Defense. While spells cannot be cast while raging (or in wildshape), the spell slots can be channeled into self-healing via combat wildshape. Rage doubles the healing benefit of those spells against a wide variety of enemies (more so at level 3).  Druid 2/Barbarian 3: Bear Totem grants resistance to all damage (except psychic) while raging. Druid 2/Barbarian 5: Extra attack allows me to retire the Brown Bear in favor of the Dire Wolf. Most beast combat abilities are balanced around the fact they only make one attack/turn. Multiattack forms are generally weaker than single-attack forms. This multiclass exploits that fact. Druid 4/Barbarian 5: Swimming forms become available, granting me options such as crocodiles, with extra attack. Druid 6/Barbarian 5: The next major break point. Giant forms such as polar bear and giant elk come online. Keep in mind the benefits of extra attack when comparing forms. Druid 10/Barbarian 5: This is the pinacle of the characters abilities. At this level, elemental forms come online. Downside is that many of these forms have inbuilt resistance which is overshadowed by rage. A raging earth elemental with resitance to pretty much everything is a terror on the battlefield. Taking a level in Warlock (Great old One) at some point is ideal, as a major weakness of the build is the inability to speak in wildshape (which telepathy can offset).    Disadvantages Magic resistance: Without insignia of claws (traded from HotDQ via certificates), my character would struggle against creatures resistant to nonmagical attacks until 11th level. This would prompt me to delay gaining Extra Attacks, and instead focus on druid levels earlier (Druid 2/Barbarian 3, followed by Druid 6/Barbarian 3).  ABIs/Feats: This build gains ABIs/Feats slowly. Nonhuman builds will not gain access to Sentinel (a key component of the build) until 6th level (regardless of build path). Diminishing returns: This build starts strong, but tapers off in power around 11th level. However, while a pure moon Druid gains its strength by trading up for increased forms, this build focuses on making each form as inherrently strong and resilient as possible - The character isn't intended to be the primary damage dealer (although its damage is respectable), but a Wall of HPs.  Delayed Wildshape Forms: This build gains new wildshape forms incredibly slowly, but maximizes those forms potential. Assuming Druid 15/Barbarian 5, the highest CR form the build gains is CR5, compared to CR6 for a pure Moon Druid. This is a minor drop in power for increased resilience (unarmored defense, bear totem rage, barbarian HPs) and combat potential (extra attack, reckless attack).  Natural Spell: Does not gain access to Natural Spell. This is not an issue for the build as rage would prevent spellcasting regardless. High Level Barbarian Traits: This is primarily a druid build. The loss of high level barbarian traits is not an issue for the build. Delayed/Restricted Spellcasting: This build is a melee build, and does not rely on spells. However, despite this - it should be noted that the build suffers with only 1st level spells for a good part of its career, after which its spell advancement is severely delayed. Due to this fact, when preparing spells - aim for spells which retain utility and benefit at all levels (cure wounds, entangle, etc).  As you can see, depending upon your goals - clever multiclassing can create a synergetc package which is effective at most levels (not just at certain break points).
#19 Wuzzard May 09, 2015 9:03:54	I've never had or seen a group stick to a campaign long enough to have characters reach level 20.
#20 MaximumPain May 09, 2015 10:05:50	Interesting build Kalani. I played a moon Druid for a bit in the AL league. Being able to switch forms was very potent and I still had healing and other utility to contribute. I ultimatly elected to go with another class but the Druid was interesting. I like how rage and the other barbarian traits combines with the form. You do lose some of the better wild shapes even if you catch up you are still delaying their availibility with your barbarian levels. Over though great build idea.
#21 Kalani May 09, 2015 10:16:10	True, I am delaying the better wildshape forms. However, the barbarian traits shore up the difference nicely. For example, the polar bear is simply an upgraded Brown Bear, with a +2 AB and extra HPs.   The Barbarian 4/Druid 2 however, has an effective 68HPs when raging while in Brown Bear form (compared to the Polar Bears 67HPs iirc). Sure, its AB is slightly weaker, but it is somewhat offset by the +2 damage bonus and +2 AC (13 vs 11).    Upon reaching 5th level in Barbarian, things really take off, with the Direwolf being the superior combat form until Druid 6 - 37 (74 HPs); two attacks at +5 to hit (2d6+6 and trip) - which is equivalent to a greatsword build sans GWM. At druid 4, the crocodile competes with the Direwolf and is superior in aquatic evironments. At Druid 6 (CL 11), things really get interesting with Giant Elk, and several other forms which really benefit from extra attacks. At Druid 12, a raging elephant with extra attacks is nothing to scoff at.    It is the added benefit of Extra Attacks, Unarmored Defense and Rage which makes the build so powerful compared to a pure druid.
#22 Conterter May 09, 2015 10:56:39	at level 5 pure druid get conjure animals 2xday iirc, starting human you can have warcaster and resilience con at that level. That means 2 hours of 8 wolf helping your party doing whatever you want (8 attacks and or 8 meatshields) so i'm not sure your build is more powerful than a pure one.   But the warlock idea is pretty good
#23 Kalani May 09, 2015 13:39:38	I didnt say it was more powerful. I said that the barbarian features offset the loss of pure druid features and accomplished my goal (creating a near impenetrable wall and reducing strain on party healing resources). Wolves are easily killed so I doubt you would have them last 8hrs. Furthermore, a single failed concentration check will make all of the remaining wolves vanish. Both builds have their merits, and accomplish different goals    I also forgot to mention that Dire Wolves gain pack tactics. As such, the loss of a few AB is more than offset by gaining advantage from your melee allies. Their trip attack is also melee friendly allowing your allies more frequent advantage as well.
#24 MaximumPain May 09, 2015 13:03:13	Thematically the Druid Barbarian feels right too. Its like a Barbarian Shamen........ Thanks for sharing!
#25 Omnilicious May 09, 2015 14:34:55	Just remember that using a Moon Druid when min/maxing through multi-classing in not representative of other class combo's. It is more about abusing the beast CR power curve on a mechanic most consider one of the broken elements of 5e.   I also see a ton of players who apparently see the game as a mostly low level experience. I have played along side many who enjoy epic level adventures where playing at level cap is common. I'd be very hard pressed to lose Archdruid from a Moon Druid build at that point. I can certainly see benefits of other builds however but our games are not hack'n'slash and non-combat balance is a must or you likely fail or even die more as a min/max combatant. Specializing is a double edged sword. Our games have always been more like Game of Thrones long before I even knew what GoT was of before it even existed. CR level for an adventure is only the path of least resistance. Any player at any time can do someting stupid enough to get themselves killed/captured or worse where CR restrictions simply doesn't apply.
#26 Conterter May 10, 2015 4:14:23	@ kalani let's just say that we disagree here.   back on topic i think the developers did a great job with asi being related to class levels and not character levels; otherwise multiclass have a distinct advantage.   It looks pretty balanced to me. multiclassing can be better at high levels If you know what you are doing, while for 1-10 is usually better stick with one class.  There are also some level dip that are powerfull and some class that doesn't give much after a certain level so there is still room for multiclassing.
#27 Mommy_was_an_Orc May 10, 2015 8:35:59	Kalani wrote: