Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 JohnnyBlaise Jul 08, 2015 16:21:12	So, what are people's thoughts about some five member groups that are quintessential murder-hobos?  Try to be creative and not to overlap completely (5 Bard 20's is boring).     My first thoughts:   Paladin (Vengeance) 6 Rogue (Assassin) 3 Warlock (Chain) 5 Fighter 2 Cleric (Trickery) 1 Monk (Shadow) 3   - Gives us all +5 to saves.  Expertise Stealth.  Action Surge.  Assassinate.  Theivery for Advantage Stealth.  Warlock for Devil's Sight, and to refresh smites on a short rest. Monk for Pass Without Trace   Cleric (War) 6 Fighter 11 (Battlemaster) Rogue 1 Warlock  2 - Uses battlemaster to effectively keep up to 4 enemies locked down inside spirit guardians.  Guidance for initiative.  Again expertise stealth and devil's sight.   Wizard 17 Rogue 1 Warlock  2 - There is no downside to 9th level wizard spells.  Again expertise stealth and devil's sight.  And you have rope trick to get everyone short rests.   Druid (Moon) 15  Monk 2 Rogue 1 Warlock 2 - Abuse wildshaping to maximize AC with Monk.  Use Ki to squeeze out extra attacks in beast shape.  Summon monsters to make sure enemies are routinely restrained.   Again expertise stealth and devil's sight.    Warlock 3 (chain) Bard 10 (lore)  Paladin 7 (ancients) - Lots of ways to buff/debuff, orbital spy drone (familiar), lots of spell access for utility, stacking aura for saves, and the aura of warding for crazy damage reduction from spells.  And again expertise stealth and devil's sight.    Party synergy: +10 to all saves, and half damage from spells.   Due to the devil's sight all around, the expertise in stealth, multiple characters who can cast darkness, and rechargeable pass without trace, we can pretty much guarantee surprise every combat.   The control character can effectively make most combats turn into a bunch of people on the ground in the spritiual guardians, who are held there by the druid, whose restrain rolls are boosted by the Bard.   The paladin of cyric can first round almost kill single enemies (4d6(sneak attack)+2d6 (hunters mark)+8d8 (smite)+2d8(weapon)+5(dex)=10d8+6d6+5 for the first attack, then 2d6+10d8 +5 for the second attack and for each of the two action surge attacks for a total of 40d8+12d6+20 = 242 damage during the suprise round (note most enemies have 300hp at challenge 20).  But of course, the Battlemaster can give you another attack presuming his initiative is higher than the targets, ao thats another 2d10+6d6+10d8+5, or average = 81, pushing us to the "instakill a Challenge 20 monster" point.     The wizard can basically just bend the game over his knee through the clever use of simulacrum/wish combo to slowly copy as many of the characters as he wants for almost free (make a simulacrum.   the simulacrum you made makes a copy of the original caster using wish (for free).  That simulacrum can then do the same thing infinite times.  Those infinite copies duplicate any of the party members they want.  But assuming this is TOO murder hobo, you can just use your wizard for counterspells, dispel magic, globe of invulnerability, rope trick and the like.
#2 Rancid_Rogue Jul 09, 2015 7:51:16	I would suggest that you're investing too many resources into the party spamming Darkness with Devil's Sight for all. Certainly it will be a game changer in cases where the opposition lacks blindsight or truesight and can't retreat around a corner from each casting of Darkness, whatever percentage of the time that may be when this party finally reaches a level where it can begin multiclassing Warlock for the lolz. And for instance that Paladin build will require 13+ in four stats not named Constitution. There's going to be a -lot- of tradeoff to make that work. Probably too much tradeoff.   That said, I like the general balance. I've been thinking about an optimized four-PC team for a bit, one that can dominate combat but also meet any skill challenge or roleplaying scenario with equal verve. There are four stats to hang skills on in this edition. (Strength doesn't really count since Athletics is easily side-stepped via flight spells, polymorph into aquatic forms, etc.) So it's convenient to think in terms of one character each with Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma as the primary stat. From that perspective, my take:   INTELLIGENCE By far the easiest selection because the only contenders are Wizard, Eldritch Knight, and Arcane Trickster. Yea, those last two are cute. I'd go with a human Knowledge Cleric-1/Enchanter-X if truly optimizing for party needs. Hypnotic Gaze has far too much potential to just side-step potential TPK encounters.   WISDOM There are plenty of viable candidates here, but I can't imagine any being more valuable than a Moon Druid. Human, because I'd gun for both Resilient (Con) and Warcaster by level 4, just in time to start spamming Conjure Animals at level 5. Now we're rocking the Wall of Fur in just about every encounter and if that's deployed expertly then our shapeshifting tank will be drawing -all- of the aggro. The Druid player will make about 547 concentration checks in a single battle. Everyone else could walk around in their underwear. About level 9 I would dip into one level of Monk for the Wisdom boost to unarmored AC while wildshaping. Hello AC 17 giant constrictor snake with 10' blindsight. -Now- pop that Darkness spell and watch an overpowered class go to work ...   DEXTERITY I'd probably place a classic assassin build here. Because the party needs the scout functions, I'd probably go Fighter-1 then Assassin Rogue all the way to -4 for the attribute bump before going back to Battlemaster Fighter for at least five more levels (probably six because I really like that Battlemaster-7 ability). Then, whatever suits your fancy. The core of the build already is in place. I'd be tempted to sneak in some Ranger because the travel rules really let that class shine.   CHARISMA And this is by far the toughest "cut" to make. Aura of Protection is a huge selling point for a Paladin, but it's just about the only thing a Paladin offers. I don't trust their DPR numbers burning daily resources, and Vow of Enmity is the biggest trap in the game for an optimized party, which can and should be spamming advantage. ("Two of the conjured constrictors have your target restrained and the wolf proned him so, uh, apparently we didn't need your god's help on this one, big fella!") A Sorcerer twinning Haste also is really sexy, till he fails a concentration check and leaves half the team hanging out to dry. Overall, I'd rather field a Lore Bard and I'm not sure he even needs to multiclass for survivability. He's got some stout builds in front of him and at level 6 he can cherry-pick Shield if it's really been a problem to date.    That group of four can be very stealthy, charming, multitalented, and lethal in combat. I'd say it's pretty close to optimized for a well-rounded campaign.
#3 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jul 09, 2015 10:48:26	I'd look at the following from a 1-20 perspective: Rogue 1/Knowledge Cleric 1/Book GOO Warlock 18. Lore Bard 20. Assassin Rogue 12/Open Hand Monk 8(Rogue 1/Monk 6, then Rogue 12, then finish off with Monk) Moon Druid 20 Everyone's stealthy. Pass without Trace by the Druid will make everyone ridiculously stealthy. Warlock provides Telepathy, so no need to talk. 12 helpings of Expertise. Any skill check can be made, even if stats don't really line up right. 3 PCs can heal and everyone can heal themselves. Best ritualist in the game with access to Leomund's Tiny Hut among other things. 2 PCs have nearly at-will push access, setting up the casters to catch targets in burst formation. Only 1 PC is not capable of doing 3rd level spells/Extra Attack at 5th level and that's fixed by the very next level. And eventually, 3 PCs have 9th level spell capability.