Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 drizzt_zylo Sep 11, 2015 13:19:52	So I have a build that will make animate dead pretty strong and looking for advice to make it better. First when it says "pile of bones or corpse" can I animate maybe stitched together corpse or any pile of humanoid bones? This is so maybe with proper ranks in medicine perhaps I can assemble skele or zombie for later use. Next can I use inspiring leader or healer on them or is it even worth it? Can I reanimate previously animated skele or zombie? Any advice for running a character with a few undead or any tricks or combos I could try? Any specific feats or invocations might be good? Thanks for the help let me know if I can clarify.
#2 WorBlade Sep 11, 2015 13:23:46	As far as I know you don't need medical skill to stitch together corpses for use. The spell takes care of that. Basically you have to have enough remains that the GM feels sufficient mass is available to animate. I do not believe that normal inspiring effects or healing affects undead. I think I saw a spell or two that noted that if used on undead it restores lost HP but maybe I am thinking of older D&D systems. Check the necromancy tagged spells.
#3 drizzt_zylo Sep 11, 2015 13:32:48	Yeah I know u don't have to have the medicine skill however I can see how some DMS might wonder first why your carrying around a bunch of bones or body parts and when you they to animate them how you have the knowledge to assemble them correctly so the spell won't fail. Had too many DMS ask me specifically how I treat a wound before and often have had the knowledge of advanced combat medicine but lacked the ranks lol. Also I over think things sometimes. This is a backup character by the way so may never need it but if I do I wanted to have a good working knowledge so I don't go fumbling around like a dummy lol.
#4 daspian Sep 11, 2015 14:58:51	it's not necessarily you carrying an entire skeleton in your bag... although you could... it's more listing what you need as the "target" of your spell.. hence a corpse or a skeleton IS the TARGET of the spell and thus becomes animated; yes it is a material component... but only because it is the TARGET of your spell and is needed.   i mean the way i look at it... let's say you stumble upon a skeleton or a corpse... you want to cast "Animate Dead" on it... why would you need another corpse or skeleton in your bag to animate this one?  the answer is you don.t... it's only listed there because that's what the spell is targetting.   secondly... you shouldn't need medical knowledge (although i am sure necromancers have an abundant knowledge of the anatomy of a body) to animate a corpse... it's MAGICAL not SCIENTIFICAL... you just mutter some incantation and the body reanimates as a souless creature to do your bidding... it's a fantasy setting...
#5 drizzt_zylo Sep 11, 2015 19:40:26	Yes I see all that but my point is maybe you don't want to animate it right this minute because you want to save your spell slots or you already have so many your not sure if you can control all of them or maybe you only find part of a skeleton or corpse. The undead you create are a bit fragile and you may not always face humanoids either so I am trying to think up ways to have more reliable minions. Any combos or tactics feats or invocations?
#6 daspian Sep 11, 2015 20:30:03	...what? it's kinda hard to understand what you're trying to say, not trying to be mean or anything... just hard to understand your sentences.   if what i gather... you're saying it's because you might want to grab the corpse and re-animate it later due to not wanting to waste a spell slot?   i don't understand why you'd want to do that, you'd only have to refresh it every 24 hours, versus having to lug around an entire corpse (unless you have a bag of holding), and refreshing it really isn't that big of a deal.   the whole point of a Necromancer is to re-animate a massive horde, you want to spend your spell slots on this spell as this is your iconic spell.   as for  being fragile...well yea... but the whole point of animate dead is that they're cheap and you can create massive armies of them... i forget where it was, but some guy wrote a legit guide to abusing the hell out of the spell and it's all completely legit and RAW, you could reach upwards of like 200-220+ skeletons/zombies with the spell all under your control and hardly a problem to bother your wizard the only hard part would be keeping track of them all lol. imagine having a horde of 200-220 skeletons and you supply them all with cheap longbows and arrows... now imagine they each do a longbow attack to some dragon... you practically one-shot a dragon in 1 round..   As for "reliable" minions... well, just remember that even if your Skeleton or Zombie is destroyed... confer with your DM if that means you can't simply "re-animate" that corpse after the fight... how badly is it damaged? was it disintegrated or just broken and the magical link animating the body was severed, causing you to have to re-apply your spell after the fight... hence not needing to find new corpses but simply keep re-applying it to the same corpses if they are "beaten".   as for combos/tactics/invocations...   i would suggest trying to find the guide, i can't for the life of me remember what it was called but it was incredibly detailed for how to manage a Necromancer and the Animate Dead spell. the guide goes into detail how an army of undead can literally **** a dragon in 1-2 rounds due to the sheer numbers they're rolling.   i would also suggest into acquring a bag of holding, and learning how to forge weapons or acquire a massive quantity... build up your undead army and equip them with a plethora of shiny new toys to kill with.   perhaps select a few of them to be the "elite" of your army, and give them a few magical items as well, perhaps conferring with your DM if this might change their statistics like say you give them Gloves of Ogre Power or something
#7 drizzt_zylo Sep 11, 2015 21:32:46	I never considered the magic items before, I just counted on them being in short supply. I also just plan on anything being in short supply such as viable corpses (partially missing, not humanoid or too large or small already animated once etc.) Also chances are I'm over thinking this trying to gain any possible edge or plan for any possible eventuality. I'll look up that guide thank you. The invocations I had planned are the silent image one (tactical advantage like concealment), the disguise self one (look like one of the hoard) and possibly the one that let's you see through another's eyes (maybe my familiar or one of the hoard). The idea was an oath breaker (aura) necro (more improvements) warlock (recharging spells) using melee with shileliegh. Got plenty of shiny weapons for the hoard due to story reasons but this is a backup character if campaign turns a different direction. Thank you and apologies for my confusing sentences I believe they sound better in my head
#8 daspian Sep 12, 2015 0:32:36	mmm idk about multi-classing warlock it's nice and all... but look up the guides here... you might almost be better off just going pure necro wizard... Oathbreaker is nice but you have to remember... the aura also affects HOSTILE undead/fiends... so you buff them too.   honestly i'm a sucker for the wizard necro it's just the classic staple.   the warlock is more of a blaster anways, and sure they can summon the undead... but none of they're stuff really "benefits" it as much as the wizard does.   death cleric is nice too but still... sucker for classic necro wiz =P
#9 spanglemaker Sep 12, 2015 8:02:39	Advice I would give if you wanted to dip into Warlock, is that those recharging slots are pretty good. Also think about your invocations and the spells you can cast.   My Master Illusionist takes a dip into Warlock for Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces. So a Wizard 14 Warlock 2, really shines.    You wanted Misty Visions, which is Silent Image ( at will without slots, and saves learning it as a Wizard spell). You also seemed interested in Mask of Many Faces, which is Disguise Self at will.  Then you put a 3rd Invocation of Voice of the Chain Master, which is really cool but may only be taken at Warlock 3+ and requires the Chain Pact.     I personally would take Warlock 3, Tome or Chain. The only problem is when to take this, maybe taking a level of Warlock after I have 2nd or 3rd level Wizard. Then how I would continue is up to me and the game but if I last til. 20th level, then Iwould be a Wizard 17 Warlock 3. If I was going Tome, then Book of Ancient Secrets and either Silent Image or Devils Sight, with 2 1st level Rituals. I would ensure I had Find Familiar, either from Wizard or Book of Ancient Secrets. If I went Chain, I would have waited and received the Find Familiar spell then and choose Voice of the Chain Master and whatever other Invocation I wanted.  Then I would continue my mastery of the Necromantic Arts.    Adding Warlock to the mix, creates lots of traditional Wizard themes, from diabolist dealing with fiends who would know lots of necromantic lore, to taking the Blade pact and having a potent magical weapon ( means about 5 levels of Warlock though), or being the master of spells and rituals via the Tome Pact.    If you allow the Warlock to cover or complement your spell blasts, then you can focus on being the best Necromancer. I might have a go at creating my own Necromancer Warlock as a tertiary character, will probably have Charisma at 13 or14 and choose my spells wisely. A Necromancer with a good charisma, should easily be able to intimidate or deceive or even persuade  others not to interfere in their work and that the animated skeleton is an illusion. Maybe a bit of Phantasmal Force or other Illusion spells would help. Wizard Hodge is building up his army of undead, the nearby locals refer to him affectionately as the local eccentric and Lord of the Manor, even the local Acolytes and Clerics couldn't believe that he is a master of Necromancy, until they run out of turnings and are killed for various reasons valid to Hodge. He's not evil, he just got even.
#10 drizzt_zylo Sep 12, 2015 9:23:39	Fun ideas maybe you could help me with the build. This is a backup character as a reimagining of primary character. Felt like playing same basic character but campaign may turn a different direction. Level minimum is 5. He is more of a command from the front type. He is dwarf started paladin oathbreaker (did that for the armor mostly). He will end as a oath breaker 8/fiend tomelock (also for sheleliegh and temp HP) 6/ necromancer 6. This should get me 4 feats n I was considering inspiring leader and healer but if there are some other good ones or those don't work then I'm open to other suggestions and or other builds. The DM allowed me a mobile cart forge with a bunch of already made weapons and armor for story reasons. DM stated that you can summon basically any creature with find steed with statistics of a horse but it might have different modes of movement I was gonna try to get a skeletal horse and a stitched flesh familiar to go with the theme (I know better with chain but couldn't have it all). Maybe some advice on spell selection for a leader of undead or how to put the undead to work best?
#11 spanglemaker Sep 14, 2015 12:25:51	So your Dwarven Oathbreaker Paladin 8, Fiend Tome Pact Warlock 6, Necromancer 6 is your end game. Wherein you will have. I guess he will be a mountain Dwarf, as unless you were really lucky with your rolls, a +2 to Strength will certainly help you with the Multiclass Stat Minimums of Str, Cha and Int 13.   At level 20 you will have Two Warlock level 3 Pact Spell slots and the Multiclass 10th level spellcaster (paladin is a half caster). Which means you will have Four 1st Level, Three 2nd, Three 3rd, Three 4th and Two 5th level spell slots. Which will be pretty good for smiting.    A whooping 10 Cantrips (3 Warlock, 3 Tome Pact and 4 Wizard) 7 Warlock spells up to 3rd level. 3 Invocations Dark Ones Blessing and Dark Ones Luck   Wizard spells,16 or 17 total in the Spellbook (Eight 1st Level, Four 2nd Level, Four or Five (Animate Dead) 3rd Level)   I would suggest Book of Ancient Secrets (grants 2 extra 1st level Rituals from ANY class), plus the ability to learn and perform any ritual. Then your choice of the two remaining are dependant on your style. Agonising Blast, Beguiling Influence, Devils Sight, Fiendish Vigor, Mask of Many Faces, Misty Visions, One with the Shadows or Repelling Blast.   I presume levels 1-2 Paladin, then 3 levels of Warlock to enable that Shillelagh cantrip. Then How do you want to progress?
#12 drizzt_zylo Sep 14, 2015 13:43:40	Well the scores are 11 13 14 15 16 17. I imagine rushing to wiz 6 while trying to keep up with warlock slots finishing paladin would be the best plan or not worry to terribly over warlock and get all my paly and wiz levels first idk. For feats I was gonna get healer and inspiring leader to prevent having to recast so much but still have no idea if it works but if I can recast on previously animated undead then maybe I won't have to collect save and try to toughen my platoon. For tactics switch between readying to protect having some, pelting at a distance, grappling or shoving, help actions for undead horde. For me using silent image for areas of cover or concealment or intimidation and disguise self to look like one of my minions. Maybe picking up sentinel for when a minion is attacked and mounted or war caster. Hexing targets so they fail their grapple or shove checks. Probably use other spell slots for smiting. What more could I do or how could I do this differently?
#13 spanglemaker Sep 14, 2015 15:57:50	I am a little confused. Are those the total scores after modification as a Dwarf or are they the raw ability rolls?   I personally would go from level 1 to 7 as follows: 1- Paladin, 2- Paladin  3- Warlock, 4- Warlock, 5-Warlock 6- Wizard, 7-Wizard   Then it's deciding what I want to do? Be more of a caster then continue Wizard and get Animate Dead once I reach level 6 Wizard, then it's Paladin or Warlock. It's quite interesting as there is synergy for the Paladin with the Wizard ( spell slots) and the casting stat of Charisma for the Warlock and Paladin. Hypothetically then here goes my attempt at this.   8- Wizard, 9-Wizard (ASI), 10- Wizard, 11- Wizard (Undead Thralls) 12-Paladin, 13-Paladin (ASI), 14-Paladin (Extra Attack) 15-Warlock (ASI), 16-Warlock, 17-Warlock 18- Paladin, 19- Paladin, 20- Paladin (ASI)   You may prefer having an Extra Attack earlier, you might prefer to focus on Wizard and worry less about the Warlocks tricks. Especially if you were able to get Magic Items such as a Hat of Disguise. Obviously there are sacrifices and as you have a build of 3 classes, it's definitely versatile, but it will lack the power of a double build or a double with a dip.   Paladin 10, Warlock 10 or Paladin 9, Warlock 9, Necromancer 2 (Double build, Double with a dip) Paladin 8, Necromancer 10/9,  Warlock 2/3 (Double with a dip)   On another note, I would imagine that your DM would permit your Mask of Many Faces, to also affect your familiar or a horse you were riding, so that they appeared undead. It's a special effect, your familiar is a part of you. It wouldn't be much of an abuse of the power, if someone was concerned then maybe it would cost you some damage or require concentration.
#14 drizzt_zylo Sep 14, 2015 17:12:42	Those are the rolls the DM gave me. I like your build but might switch last 3 levels of paly with last 3 warlock cause I really want the aura sooner. Like your idea with familiar and steed but not sure just how much I'll use them. Sounds like you like the tome pact invocation but originally I was gonna get beguiling so I may have to reconsider. Still not sure which feats if any will be useful. Yeah I know its not quite the power game I normally play but I'm trying to make more varied versatile characters that seem to also have a main focus. I'm sure that's as clear as mud lol. thank you for putting up with my grammar and for all the help.
#15 spanglemaker Sep 15, 2015 0:21:22	So +2 to Con and Strength I like your idea, having 3 levels of Warlock later in play grants you the Aura and enables you to play and sort your Invocations out.   Maybe the 1st two, Beguiling and Mask of Many Faces, provide great options.  Your 3rd choice of Invocation, could be any of the ones I suggested previously, Book of Ancient Secrets is best for the Master Wizard, but your character is much more versatile. Having infinite Silent Image or hiding in the shadows or Devils Sight ( perfect normal vision in Day, Darkness and Magical Darkness to 120 feet).
#16 drizzt_zylo Sep 15, 2015 4:53:02	If my scores support it I think I'll try hill because I'll be wearing medium or heavy armor since I took paladin first. Figure those extra HP might be pretty useful. Still having trouble with ask or feats. What would be some great rituals to grab if I decide to go that route? Think I'd only get up to 3rd level rituals.
#17 drizzt_zylo Sep 15, 2015 21:02:11	This is going into my back pocket since campaign seems to have died. Guess I'll have to get advice on a different build lol