New season 2 options - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 QwertyAzerty Mar 10, 2015 12:22:22	This is an OPTIMIZE thread, I am not talking about concept, RP etc.. I am talking only about numbers. ok I'm looking at the new player companion PDF from season 2 and I am kind of disapointed. Every option in the PDF, at first glance, seem weaker then the PHB options. In my opinion, the Goliath is weaker then the half orc Show Goliath: The Goliath package is made to make his a strong melee combatant, like hte half orc, so let's compare both race together and see who would create the best melee, strenght base character. Both race give +2/+1 to strenght and Constitution. Both race give 1 usefull skill profiency (Athletic VS Intimidation) Both race give 2 languages. Both race have a speed of 30ft Both race are medium Stone Endurance VS Retlentless Endurance: Both feature help you survive an additional hit. Stone Endurance is recover on a short rest, Relentless Endurance is recovered on a long rest. Stone Endurance require a reaction to activate. Relentless Endurance is a free action. Stone Endurance can be use at any time to reduce 1d12+Con damage from a single damage source (attack, spell, environement etc...). Relentless endurance allow you to stay at 1HP instead of falling to 0HP once. Here Is would give advantage to Relentless endurance because as long that the attack do not bring you down to negative max HP (almost impossible on a well build melee combatant) you will come back to 1 HP, compare to the Stone endurance who will only protect against a MAXIMUM of 18 and that 18 is considering that you have 20 Constitution and rolled 12 on a d12, more realisticcally you will probably reduce 10 damages (constitution of 16-17 and an average roll or 6.5 round up). If the attack wouldn't bring you down to under 0, then using such an ability is not worth it, since you should keep it when it's really matter, at any other time, the healer can send you a healing spell if you need HP. So I would say that in most occasion The Orc Relentless Endurance will be more beneficial, more reliable and less reliant to the RNG god then Stone Endurance who require the enemy to bring you down doing less damage then what you can reduce. Savage attack: 1/20 attack do an extra dice of damage, situational but you can build to make it more usefull (fighter champion) The Goliath have no other combat advantage to compare to. Power Build: No combat advantage. here, only allow you to carry more loot, but then again you can buy a cart or a bag of holding for the same benefit. Yes the lift, drag, push bonus can be usefull, but this is extremely situational, and you have to realized that the adventure are written considerign that you might have a group with no Goliath, so there is a way to solve the "puzzle" without needing to be "large" to push the boulder. Monstain born: Also extremly situational, from what I saw in the Expedition in Phlan we are not at 20000ft in the mountain (and Mulmaster is next to Phlan around the same moonsea, far under the 20000ft treshold. THe cold weather adaptation is nice, but situational as well. I consider those 2 abilities as being weaker then the Half Orc Darkvision.
#2 Ravix Mar 10, 2015 20:34:38	You don't need an EE character to use the rank 3 faction bonuses, it just has to be in an EE adventure.
#3 QwertyAzerty Mar 11, 2015 12:32:19	Ravix wrote:
#4 Ravix Mar 11, 2015 14:49:03	If you're making an Abjuration Wizard, you can do no better than the Deep Gnome.
(Reply to #4) steelwulf99	I'm still in shock that you think 1d12+con damage reduction once per short rest is worse than negating a drop to 0hp once per long rest. Most people get one to two short rests per day, and get hit more often than they get KO'd...
#6 Hecetv Mar 11, 2015 18:00:47	steelwulf99 wrote:
(Reply to #6) steelwulf99	Hecetv wrote:
(Reply to #7) RubenRybnikk	steelwulf99 wrote:
(Reply to #3) Coredump00	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#10 Hecetv Mar 11, 2015 20:35:08	Hecetv wrote:
#11 Hecetv Mar 11, 2015 20:36:33	Also though I think it's cool that we and others disagree I think that's a mark of quality in the game. That we can look at the same few lines of text and see them totally differently. Or at least see them at different values.
(Reply to #10) RubenRybnikk	Hecetv wrote:
#13 QwertyAzerty Mar 12, 2015 7:13:24	In the game that I'm playing we are lucky when our Dm allows us a siingle short rest in a chapter/episode/adventure. Then for my explanation about Stone Endurance VS Relentless endurance: my strenght base melee combabatant technically got good Constitution as well (+3 preferably using 15 starting stats and +1 racial) In most of my fight , my HP doesn't matter, since since I got a big pool of HP, is very rare that I fall under 20% in a single day, then we get a long rest and I go back to 100%. So Stone Endurance in those situation, finsihing the day at 20% or at 30% HP doesn't matter, in both case I'm still alive and I still go back to 100% during my long rest. Even in those few adventures with short rest, during those short rest I have more then enough HD to heal back to 100% and I never ran out of HD so saving a few more HP from stone endurance wouldn't have change anything, and it's usefullness become null, after the short rest since I have too many HD anyway. Who care if you reach the short rest or the long rest with 30 or 40 HP, you have enought HD to heal back to full, specially considering all ressources the rest of the party that will help you (and the rest of the party) recover even more HP (Bard song of rest, cleric prayer of healing, cleric of life preserve life ect...) The few moment where Stone Endurance and Relentless endurance would matter, it's when we are facing that deadly encounter, the big bad evil boss who's 3 CR higher then teh group, with his 2 lieutenant that are the same CR as te group. This is the fight where my strenght combatant might fall down to 0 HP (Having 1 extra HD from previous short rest doesn't matter since we cannot use HD during combat and there is NO SHORT REST in the middle of a fight), so any stone endurance I could have used prior to now is meaningless in this important and difficult/deadly fight. So during this fight, where the ability actually count, where the ability will actually do a differences which one is the best one. -Relentless Endurance will allow you to survive a SINGLE hit that would have brought you to 0 no matter how big, (as long as it less them your Max HP) -Stone Endurance will allow you to survive a SINGLE hit IF that single hit deal less damage then what you roll on your D12+Con+current HP. Every hit that Stone Endurance will allow you to survive, relentless endurance will also allow you to survive. but the opposite is not true. Also Stone Endurance take your reaction, so you loose your Attack of Opportunity. Like I said pushing, lifting, dragging like a large creature, is SITUATIONAL at best, and can be repalce using a cart, bag of holding and doesn't impact your combat capability, my half orc can still drag the unconscious rogue easy enough out of the danger so the cleric can heal it, I don't need a goliath to pull him out. yes you might disagree with me, maybe your team make up, your DM style of play and your personal style of play make your HD a scarce ressource that you never have enought, and yes in such a situation, where you alway get a minimum of 2 short rest, allowing you to use a lot of HD, stone endurance that basically give you an extra HD per short rest can become usefull, but in my experience, playing the official release adventure (no homebrew campaign) there is no room for many short rest during an episode/chapter/adventure, so I NEVER use mroe then half my HD per day, so I never run out and even come close to run out of them, so an extra HS per short rest have no value to me. Those Official release module, are also very gentle and never putting the player (who play it smartly) in a situation where they have 2 deadly fight in a row without a long rest in between unless the adventure give you some big bonuses.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

QwertyAzerty

Mar 10, 2015 12:22:22

This is an OPTIMIZE thread, I am not talking about concept, RP etc.. I am talking only about numbers.

ok I'm looking at the new player companion PDF from season 2 and I am kind of disapointed.

Every option in the PDF, at first glance, seem weaker then the PHB options.

In my opinion, the Goliath is weaker then the half orc

Show

Goliath: The Goliath package is made to make his a strong melee combatant, like hte half orc, so let's compare both race together and see who would create the best melee, strenght base character.

Both race give +2/+1 to strenght and Constitution.

Both race give 1 usefull skill profiency (Athletic VS Intimidation)

Both race give 2 languages.

Both race have a speed of 30ft

Both race are medium

Stone Endurance VS Retlentless Endurance: Both feature help you survive an additional hit.
Stone Endurance is recover on a short rest, Relentless Endurance is recovered on a long rest.

Stone Endurance require a reaction to activate. Relentless Endurance is a free action.

Stone Endurance can be use at any time to reduce 1d12+Con damage from a single damage source (attack, spell, environement etc...). Relentless endurance allow you to stay at 1HP instead of falling to 0HP once. Here Is would give advantage to Relentless endurance because as long that the attack do not bring you down to negative max HP (almost impossible on a well build melee combatant) you will come back to 1 HP, compare to the Stone endurance who will only protect against a MAXIMUM of 18 and that 18 is considering that you have 20 Constitution and rolled 12 on a d12, more realisticcally you will probably reduce 10 damages (constitution of 16-17 and an average roll or 6.5 round up). If the attack wouldn't bring you down to under 0, then using such an ability is not worth it, since you should keep it when it's really matter, at any other time, the healer can send you a healing spell if you need HP.

So I would say that in most occasion The Orc Relentless Endurance will be more beneficial, more reliable and less reliant to the RNG god then Stone Endurance who require the enemy to bring you down doing less damage then what you can reduce.

Savage attack: 1/20 attack do an extra dice of damage, situational but you can build to make it more usefull (fighter champion) The Goliath have no other combat advantage to compare to.

Power Build: No combat advantage. here, only allow you to carry more loot, but then again you can buy a cart or a bag of holding for the same benefit. Yes the lift, drag, push bonus can be usefull, but this is extremely situational, and you have to realized that the adventure are written considerign that you might have a group with no Goliath, so there is a way to solve the "puzzle" without needing to be "large" to push the boulder.

Monstain born: Also extremly situational, from what I saw in the Expedition in Phlan we are not at 20000ft in the mountain (and Mulmaster is next to Phlan around the same moonsea, far under the 20000ft treshold. THe cold weather adaptation is nice, but situational as well.

I consider those 2 abilities as being weaker then the Half Orc Darkvision.

Ravix

Mar 10, 2015 20:34:38

You don't need an EE character to use the rank 3 faction bonuses, it just has to be in an EE adventure.

QwertyAzerty

Mar 11, 2015 12:32:19

Ravix wrote:

Ravix

Mar 11, 2015 14:49:03

If you're making an Abjuration Wizard, you can do no better than the Deep Gnome.

(Reply to #4)

steelwulf99

I'm still in shock that you think 1d12+con damage reduction once per short rest is worse than negating a drop to 0hp once per long rest. Most people get one to two short rests per day, and get hit more often than they get KO'd...

Hecetv

Mar 11, 2015 18:00:47

steelwulf99 wrote:

(Reply to #6)

steelwulf99

Hecetv wrote:

(Reply to #7)

RubenRybnikk

steelwulf99 wrote:

(Reply to #3)

Coredump00

QwertyAzerty wrote:

#10

Hecetv

Mar 11, 2015 20:35:08

Hecetv wrote:

#11

Hecetv

Mar 11, 2015 20:36:33

Also though I think it's cool that we and others disagree I think that's a mark of quality in the game. That we can look at the same few lines of text and see them totally differently. Or at least see them at different values.

(Reply to #10)

RubenRybnikk

Hecetv wrote:

#13

QwertyAzerty

Mar 12, 2015 7:13:24

In the game that I'm playing we are lucky when our Dm allows us a siingle short rest in a chapter/episode/adventure.

Then for my explanation about Stone Endurance VS Relentless endurance: my strenght base melee combabatant technically got good Constitution as well (+3 preferably using 15 starting stats and +1 racial)

In most of my fight , my HP doesn't matter, since since I got a big pool of HP, is very rare that I fall under 20% in a single day, then we get a long rest and I go back to 100%. So Stone Endurance in those situation, finsihing the day at 20% or at 30% HP doesn't matter, in both case I'm still alive and I still go back to 100% during my long rest. Even in those few adventures with short rest, during those short rest I have more then enough HD to heal back to 100% and I never ran out of HD so saving a few more HP from stone endurance wouldn't have change anything, and it's usefullness become null, after the short rest since I have too many HD anyway. Who care if you reach the short rest or the long rest with 30 or 40 HP, you have enought HD to heal back to full, specially considering all ressources the rest of the party that will help you (and the rest of the party) recover even more HP (Bard song of rest, cleric prayer of healing, cleric of life preserve life ect...)

The few moment where Stone Endurance and Relentless endurance would matter, it's when we are facing that deadly encounter, the big bad evil boss who's 3 CR higher then teh group, with his 2 lieutenant that are the same CR as te group. This is the fight where my strenght combatant might fall down to 0 HP (Having 1 extra HD from previous short rest doesn't matter since we cannot use HD during combat and there is NO SHORT REST in the middle of a fight), so any stone endurance I could have used prior to now is meaningless in this important and difficult/deadly fight. So during this fight, where the ability actually count, where the ability will actually do a differences which one is the best one.

-Relentless Endurance will allow you to survive a SINGLE hit that would have brought you to 0 no matter how big, (as long as it less them your Max HP)

-Stone Endurance will allow you to survive a SINGLE hit IF that single hit deal less damage then what you roll on your D12+Con+current HP.

Every hit that Stone Endurance will allow you to survive, relentless endurance will also allow you to survive. but the opposite is not true. Also Stone Endurance take your reaction, so you loose your Attack of Opportunity.

Like I said pushing, lifting, dragging like a large creature, is SITUATIONAL at best, and can be repalce using a cart, bag of holding and doesn't impact your combat capability, my half orc can still drag the unconscious rogue easy enough out of the danger so the cleric can heal it, I don't need a goliath to pull him out.

yes you might disagree with me, maybe your team make up, your DM style of play and your personal style of play make your HD a scarce ressource that you never have enought, and yes in such a situation, where you alway get a minimum of 2 short rest, allowing you to use a lot of HD, stone endurance that basically give you an extra HD per short rest can become usefull, but in my experience, playing the official release adventure (no homebrew campaign) there is no room for many short rest during an episode/chapter/adventure, so I NEVER use mroe then half my HD per day, so I never run out and even come close to run out of them, so an extra HS per short rest have no value to me. Those Official release module, are also very gentle and never putting the player (who play it smartly) in a situation where they have 2 deadly fight in a row without a long rest in between unless the adventure give you some big bonuses.