This is a spin off of one of the traps threads with the intent of giving perspective and ideas outside of optimization. My opinion is there is room for optimization but not at the expense of enjoyment, especially over small gains. I also believe that the game can be fun with or without optimization because the attachment to the character concept is more important than bigger numbers.
Please post concept builds that are enjoyable because of the concept and not the numbers.
I'm starting in a new group with my new trap build...
Hopefully I have enough trap options.
Point buy with racial bonus to CON and CHA.
STR 12
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16
Variant human, AC 13, lore college.
Skill proficiencies: arcana +2, history +4, investigation +4, nature +2, religion +2, insight +2, medicine +2, perception +2, survival +2; hermit background; expertise is in history and investigation; proficient in herbalist kit
Non-proficient skills: athletics +2, acrobatics +2, sleight of hand +2, stealth +2, animal handling +1, deception +4, intimidation +4, performance +4, persuasion +4
Cantrips: Light, Mending
1st-Level Spells: Identify, Detect Magic, Speak with Animals, Sleep, Dissonant Whispers
2nd-Level Spells: Enthrall
Bonus feat at 1st level: Healer
Feat / ASI plan, in order -- moderately armored, CHA, pole arm master, war caster, CHA
I am armed with studded leather armor, 2 short swords, 1 dagger, 1 light crossbow; using a spell component pouch
Still working on the background, but going with a loremaster / scholarly bard. The idea is to work with more subtle magic in the character.
Advantages: proficient in skills with low ability modifiers gives well rounded skills bonuses, the only concentration spell is detect magic and it's a ritual, the first 3 spells listed are rituals so won't impact spell slots. Enthrall is there for niche shenanigans in civilization so level 2 slots will be for sleep and level 1 slots for dissonant whispers. The power of sleep, dissonant whispers, cutting words, and healer feat should still carry what's a concept build regardless of flavor choices until additional abilities and spells are added.
Not a lot of interest, I see, but a quick update. Hit level 4 and thought I would add crown of madness as a poor spell. It turned out I was mistaken and the spell plays much better than it looks on paper as a strategic use spell. Good to the point that it's usually preferred over dissonant whispers and often before sleep when I am facing humanoids. As I expected, a few solid options carries other choices taken for flavor or concept. I was planning on a better spell at 5th level for combat but since we're still in decent shape on concepts I am going to take glyph of warding instead and at 6th level calm emotions, bestow curse, and dispel magic. There are useful but not much for top-rated in there, or area effects, so 7th and 8th level will add confusion and polymorph.
AdrastusDarke wrote:
I'm not sure I know what you are looking for. What's a "trap" build? Is it a build that involves selection of sub-optimal choices?
If so, I'm currently playing a Stout Halfling Noble Wizard. Halfing is naturally a poor choice for Wizard, but I had a nice concept of a halfling who is a dandy/foppish sort (fat and lazy) who uses prestidigitation to do everything for himself. Played it 3 times so far and playing again tonight. Starting with a 14 Int is tough for a Wizard, and it's very strange to me playing a Halfling without stealth, but I'm enjoying myself regardless.
We found some magical boots (striding and springing) that would have been useful for my character, but I turned them down. My character has bare feet, with his foot hair spendedly curled and maintained, and fancy toe-rings. He is too concerned that wearing boots would give him "boot hair" (flat and lifeless).
I made some optimal choices with him too. He's a diviner, so Portent is particularly useful.
Actually if there is a discussion that fleshes out various concepts (such as the one just posted) count me an interested reader! There is not enough sharing of personalities and motivations mixed with the hard facts of class, race and other choices. In the old days there were fewer choices (not that that is a good thing) but we talked about character histories plans and exploits more often.
As for me I am playing a tempest cleric with an entertainer background. His father was a charlatan street preacher but the character is the real deal---an apocalyptic prophet. I believe his entertainer background with storytelling and poetry makes a good missionary. He unknowingly was learning the craft from a swindler (he thought his father sincere) and is now using those skills in town squares to warn of the final battle.
Of course all of this is backed by the fury and call lightning of the gods...
He is a variant human (with albinism) which might add or detract from his fervent preaching and crusading. I am going to eventually use a maul when I get a few levels.
As to "trap" I dunno. I am not dipping and am taking feats that will help him fight hand to hand on the frontier because fun. I do realize my small Dex penalty and focus on melee is not optimized, but it's simple. I want to convert or bash. If I lose initiative or have to pump str Nd wisdom, so what? It's all about the image and things I want to imagine...but I would not say it's a trap
Ashrym wrote:
The idea is to discuss builds based on conceptual interest more than number crunching, what works and what doesn't, and if the character is successful and enjoyable in the game regardless of options than come up as non-optimal or poor choices. For example, a lot of players and guides don't approve of identify because the rules allow for identification of magic items on a short rest. Identifying magic items was a bard abilities at one point, and is thematic with the scholarly bard so it appeals to me for aesthetic reasons instead of mechanical reasons. Mechanically, however, it's a ritual so doesn't cost me spell slots or require that short rest. It also has the benefit of letting me know what spells created an item, are affecting an item, or are affecting an individual if I cast the spell. As it turns out, identify is thematic for bardic identification per older rules and also fits the healer concept where I can use the medicine skill to identify and treat a malady plus check for magical spells that might be the strange afflictions on my patients. I like that concept and have used it several times at this point. The build is based on the loremaster concept and adding traditional bard elements that are not typically selected. Enthrall is basically added as the 3e fascination ability and can spark interesting ingame discussions in the plans that involve it's use. Crown of madness was added as a curse style spell and focus on humanoids like 3e bard spells. It was being different and turned out rather well, mechanically, and thematically. Speak with animals is another non-optimal choice in guides but people say things in front of their horse under the assumption the horse isn't telling anyone, so it's an information gathering spell, an opportunity to creatively ask a favor, and directly opens up role play. Sorry about the formatting. Do those examples and background help?
Ashrym wrote:
I made a Human Tempest Cleric in a campaign I play in by rolling 4d6 drop one in order to determine our initial ability scores.
Here's how it turned out (with Human Variant):
STR 13
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 13
WIS 14
CHA 11
Since he had very high dexterity and very average constitution, I made him a duelist who was raised by Elves. I took Defensive Duelist feat at first level just for the concept. The +2 to AC on one attack does not really come into play very often. (It has only saved me a hit 3 times over 4 levels so far...and it worked twice in our last session so prior to that it had only stopped 1 blow from landing). Although it does not activate too often, it has helped me forge my character concept and it has made the character fun to play since at lower levels he could wade into combat with pretty decent AC and a chance to turn a blow aside...that coupled with Wrath of the Storm when I get hit (dealing thunder or lightning damage to the melee attacker who hits me) adds a lot of random chances that add to the fun. Sure, Defensive Duelist will be better later when my proficiency bonus goes up, but for now, it is just fun knowing I have it because it has shaped the way the character behaves.
Since he has no bonus to Con, he is rather hit point challenged currently at 4th level. This is forcing me to change the way he plays. He is getting more wise and when possible, he will eschew melee combat. He even tried to get the party to run from a roper in one session, but when his comrades got grappled and one went down, he came back to help. His momentary cowardness (or wisdom depending on how you look at it) is something he is trying to live down so now he does whatever he can to make sure his comrades know that he will stick by them through the darkest times.
At 4th level, he picked up the Healer Feat so that he could help his friends more in battle and between encounters. That decision was made as a tribute to his comrades rather than to min/max or optimize.
Basically, the flaws of the character are what make him more interesting to play. This is why I don't like optimizing. Without flaws, to me, PCs are not as fun to play. With flaws and shortcomings, there is always a reason to grow, change, and strive.
I don't spend enough time reading the Optimization stuff to know what is and isn't a trap, but I like seeing how a concept and mechanics come together. I've got a few characters I started working on, but I don't get to play so they've never seen play.
I just got to DM against a first-time-player Bard who effectively nerfed a semi-random HotDQ / Tiamat encounter with just two spells. (Names might not be exact because I don't have good notes.) The encounter was supposed to allow our new Barbarian to get some practice at her shtick.
Plant Growth against a dozen kobolds on the edge of a forest - the kobolds were supposed to scatter widely and use slings against one target. Instead they were tangled in brambles and could only move 1 square per turn. This set up the Wizard to Fireball the area and take out ALL the kobolds, even those who made their Save (5 HP each).
Hold Person against the Boss (a Dragonsoul). The rest of the group had learned earlier - against Rezmir - the power of this spell. The Bard cast it, the Boss failed his save, then the Barb just walked over and chopped him into little pieces.
Neither of these spells are rated highly among the DPR-conscious.
Being a tactician myself, I enjoy seeng clever stuff happen to mess up my DM plans. I'm keeping notes for when I run 'The Cult Strikes Back' scenarios: if I need three tries to assassinate the group, I'm doing something wrong.
Sig probably fits into this category of character. The entire concept goes against optimization, but I thought he'd be an absolute blast to play.
A friend of mine once played a full-plate wearing, rapier wielding, worg riding goblin paladin. Who tumbled all the time. In full plate.
BRJN wrote:
Leugren wrote:
I like plant growth because it's got decent range, huge area of effect, and it's an instantaneous permanent effect with very strong mobility restrictions. Examples like plant growth, defensive duelist, and frenzy (apologies if I miss something; omission isn't intentional or indicative of opinion) aren't highly rated but they have strong effects and are good examples. I like tactical choices or risk vs reward decision points in addition to flavour it's nice to see some of the uses. Imagine entangle or evard's or some other lingering effect combined with the movement restriction on plant growth and a person can make solid use of the spell regardless of rating. 'twas a good example.
Before I forget, ironically, one of the reasons hold person is rated highly is damage attacking the held target. I've seen it happen often enough to learn that the target isn't necessarily in a good position for the party to gang pile the held target and trying means moving means triggering opportunity attacks against the party. Positioning advantages or disadvantages alter a spell's potential so circumstances alter the guide ratings often enough that many spells can play differently (better or worse) at different times. I would say that guides can be useful and worth reading, but it's not likely that taking a choice based on preference over ratings with keep a person from enjoying the character. I find it more likely that feeling forced to take a choice based on ratings over interest takes away from enjoying the character. This thread is more about how to enjoy the characters we want than what we think is necessary or fail. Fail doesn't happen if the player is having fun.
The name of this thread should be, "Sub-optimal choices, for optimal enjoyment."
HermanTheWize wrote:
A "trap" option isn't something that's just simply "suboptimal" in the grand overall picture. It's a game element that seems better than it actually is, and doesn't actually do what it's supposed to, or doesn't do it well enough to be considered acceptable.
Choosing a fighting style that does less damage or a race that doesn't give any bonuses related to the class you chose isn't a trap. It's a character choice.
Taking a feat or choosing a background that fits your character (whether mechanically or narratively) and then finding out that it's next to useless because it rarely-if-ever provides it's benefit or because that benefit makes no real difference at all towards what it's trying to accomplish... That is the definition of a "trap". Things may also be or become "trap" options when there are more effective ways to do what that thing does or to do it with less expenditure of resources - but simply being considered less effective compared to something else completely different doesn't make it a trap. In the history of D&D there are a long list of classes, class abilities and feats that did not in any way live up to what they were called, and on occasion didn't even actually do what they were meant to. One perfect example of this is (nearly all of the multiple and various versions of) the Assassin class from previous editions: the special abilities of the class have rarely been all that "special" (if not downright ineffective) and the narrative role of the class could be filled by any other class with selectively picked abilities. Not only did you not need to be an Assassin to be an "assassin", but in many cases choosing that class was a less effective way of doing so.
What you're proposing is an idea that the CharOp forums in past editions referred to as "Optimization to Concept", or coming up with the best way to mechanically represent a character that is effective at either doing something very specific (and often non-combat-related), or doing something that's not normally optimized towards or not considered an "optimal" choice - Or that possesses a particular combination of skills and abilities that wouldn't normally be considered typical. Sometimes that involves picking the usually optimal choices (if and when they fit the narrative character concept), sometimes it involves choosing something that mechanically better represents the character but isn't considered the "best overall option" for a member of that class and/or race.
In previous editions, people came up with ways to do almost anything well, and sometimes in crazy ways. Rocket-tag monks who moved hundreds of feet per round, diplomancers who could talk anybody into anything, characters who could use a single highly-developed knowledge skill for almost any skill check, etc.... Building a unique skillset and suit of abilites based on effectively representing the narrative idea of the character rather than simply choosing options based on an objective statistical analysis of how mechanically effective those options are in general is just another form of optimization.
The best way to optimize a "wizard" is to pick Wizard as a class and choose a race with an Intelligence bonus like the high elf.
The best way to optimize a "halfling wizard who likes to use his spells and abilities to make it seem like he's incredibly lucky" isn't to play a high elf wizard.
You play a halfling with a class (not necessarily wizard - could be a sorceror, warlock or arcane trickster) and a background that gives you skills or abilities that synergize with your character concept, pick spells that allow you to do things you want to do, and pick feats that further enable your concept with the appropriate mechanical abilities or bonuses. Then you rewrite the fluff on them as necessary to match your character's backstory, personality and/or motivations.
Of course, most people I know just consider this the regular way to make a character.
You decide what your character is like and what they want to do, then pick the classes and abilities that best represent those personal aspects or let you accomplish those activities most effectively. Sometimes that involves a few simple choices - particularly in 5E since there aren't as many options yet - such as merely choosing a background that gives you an appropriate skill, and sometimes that involves multiple classes, feats and/or a background that seem counter-intuitive or random on paper without the narrative explanation.
Well, we've made it to 5th level and I did pick up glyph of warding as planned. It ended up causing some discussion on it's application because on of the criteria for the spell application of the glyph uses the term "prepared spell" and we had to table that application to after the session. The end result was an agreement that it meant in preparation of and did not completely eliminate the second application of the spell, mostly due to the fact that spells known is already more limited than the ability to prepare spells and thus restricts the spell in the hands of a bard already.
I've only been able to use the spell once so far, and that was for explosive runes on a bridge where we were expecting a group of bandits to cross and then ambushed them from behind to gain surprise right after the explosion. I am assured I can use sleep, dissonant whispers, and crown of madness glyphs in the future, and I am looking forward to seeing what else I can sneak in there. At the cost, I'll likely keep using 3rd level slots for sleep because we're not wealthy, but some planned out spell traps seem to be fun. I suspect it will be handy with bestow curse to avoid concentration earlier, on occasion.
The other discussion was on the section of using it to store a spell with concentration because that section seems to indicate a concentration spell runs full duration without actually needing to use concentration and therefore can be used with planning a trap to bypass the concentration mechanic, which we found both niche and interesting.
The reason for the glyph of warding is because I believe glyphs, runes, and symbols are an inherent part of the scholar / lore archetype and the long term plan will include symbol as well. I did have some reservations about sticking with the plan because humanoid encounters are becoming less common so playing with humanoid motif spells forces me to move more towards sleep and dissonant whispers, and sleep sees more impact from higher hp enemies that we face.
When we do face humanoids the other party members are getting more into the movement positioning and strategy on it, so the warlock picked up repelling blast to push targets back closer together and the fighter is planning on picking up the pushing attack manevuer as well. We're finding that a grid style of tactics are present (or at least possible) without the same sense of playing a boardgame that I used to get.
Current bard (lvl 5 lore) he's educated and a physician, and learning some basic combat ability as a pragmatist.
STR 12
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16
Variant human, AC 20
Skill proficiencies: arcana +3, history +6, investigation +6, nature +3, religion +3, insight +3, medicine +3, perception +3, survival +3; hermit background; expertise is in history and investigation; proficient in herbalist kit
Non-proficient skills: athletics +2, acrobatics +3, sleight of hand +3, stealth +3, animal handling +1, deception +4, intimidation +4, performance +4, persuasion +4
Cantrips: Light, Mending, Blade Ward (selected for the sigil in the air fluff and potential situational use)
1st-Level Spells: Identify, Detect Magic, Speak with Animals, Sleep, Dissonant Whispers
2nd-Level Spells: Enthrall, Crown of Madness
3rd-Level: Glyph of Warding
Bonus feat at 1st level: Healer
4th level feat: Moderately Armored
Armed with halfplate and shield, rapier, dagger, light crossbow, carries 2 healing kits standard with additional supplies on a pony; using a spell component pouch; cloak of protection, 3 healing potions; stores the weapon for a free hand when spellcasting.
The plan is to continue with adding calm emotions, bestow curse, and dispel magic at 6th level. Glyphs set up ahead of time with spell effects are starting to look like they might have some interesting interactions, so I'm open to ideas on some of those.
Ashrym,
I had to retire my HotDQ Paladin when I became the group's DM. He is now helping the Lords Alliance to plan an Army campaign to attack the Well of Dragons. (Works because his background includes Quartermaster - the supplies guy.) I came up with this trap so our Wizard can actually use his Glyph of Warding spell:
Glyph a tabletop, set to go off when "anybody takes the book off". Light adhesive on the table ("rubber cement") so you have to tug a bit on the book, it won't just blow off in the wind.
Put a new cover on the book. Hand-print in big easy-to-read letters on the spine "Campaign Plan". Stick a few loose pages and bookmarks in the book. Place the book on the adhesive, flat on the table, with the spine turned so it can be easily read from the door. Now Glyph the book, set to go off "when anybody handles the book".
The kicker? The book is actually recipies for home-cookin' comfort food. Even if you survive ALL THAT (and IF the book does too), you don't have the plans for Operation Overlord after all. 
BRJN wrote: