Oathbound: The Paladin Guide
“It is not the oath that makes us believe the man, but the man the oath.”
— Aeschylus
Guide linked on Google Docs, as well.
Table of Contents:
I. Introduction
II. Proficiencies, Attributes, Backgrounds and Class Features
III. Oaths
IV. Races
V. Feats
VI. Spells
VII. Equipment
VIII. Multiclassing
IX. FAQ
X. Builds and Combos
This guide will use the following ratings:
Red is dead. A choice that either adds nothing of value to your character or might even actively hurt it.
Purple is a substandard choice. It might be useful in corner-case situations, but overall it's not worth the investment.
Black is average. You're not hurting your character by taking this, and it might even help in some situations, but there are better choices.
Blue is a good choice. It definitely helps your character in the majority of cases.
Sky Blue is a fantastic choice. An option you should strongly consider above most others.
Gold is mandatory. It's a rare rating that denotes something that is so good that you must take it, or you can't call yourself optimized.
This guide takes from the following sources:
PHB - Player’s Handbook
MM - Monster Manual
DMG - Dungeon Master’s Guide
EEPC - Elemental Evil Player’s Companion
UA X/X/XX - Unearthed Arcana (date of article)
I. Introduction
What's a Paladin?
A question that became an unfortunate meme from the unfortunate ninth and final entry in the Ultima series.
The definition in D&D terms of a Paladin has changed over editions, but one constant that remains to this day is that they are warriors bound by divine rites to serve something greater than them, whether that is a god or a cause, and gain power beyond their martial training from the strength of their divinely manifested convictions.
It used to be that all Paladins had to be Lawful Good, period, end of sentence, or they would lose their divine powers. Mechanically, this sort of made sense in AD&D (1e and 2e) where Paladins were literally Fighters with extra stuff. But even back then, arguments arose at many a table over whether an individual act by a Paladin violated the nebulous concepts of "lawful" or "good," which often in the end would result in a Paladin falling and becoming a mere Fighter. Which at least wasn't that weak. But when 3rd Edition came about, Paladins couldn't even be considered "Fighter-plus" anymore. Yet 3e kept the Lawful Good restriction and the "falling" concept in place, and when Paladins fell in that edition, they were basically NPC Warriors with a d10 hit die, having none of the bonus feats the Fighter got. Furthermore, Paladins were one of the most mechanically inept classes in 3e even when they didn't fall.
4e, recognizing that, took the bold step of making it so that Paladins could no longer fall and lose their powers (although instead the DM was given free license to send constant disruptions to punish faithless Paladins). Furthermore, 4e codified, in core rules, the existence of Paladins who weren't Lawful Good for the first time. Instead, they matched the alignment of the god to whom they swore allegiance. The expansion of alignments Paladins could be in the core rules was a welcome change, although explicitly tying them to gods where they weren't before was arguably a step back.
Now with the coming of 5e, Paladins can once again suffer mechanical consequences for directly violating their oaths, but with some welcome twists. Now Paladins can only fall by directly violating the tenets of their oaths, rather than just some nebulous concept of "lawful" or "good." That also means that any justifications the player makes for his actions to the DM are compared to actual concrete tenets, and while this certainly won't halt player vs. DM debates altogether, it does more clearly define the battlefield on which those debates take place. And while the three oaths in the Player's Handbook can be more or less mapped to certain alignments (which thankfully are not restricted to Lawful Good), a Paladin's individual alignment need not necessarily match the oath's connotations. Also, as if continuing to recognize that fallen Paladins became mechanically incapable after AD&D, falling means either being forced to pick another class altogether or taking the as-of-yet unreleased Oathbreaker variant.
Paladins of this current edition hit that spot flavor-wise, finally becoming the divinely oath-bound warriors they were purported to be all along, without the annoying direct ties to alignment.
Mechanical overview
Paladins in 5e have returned back to their classic "half-caster" status that was the case in 1e-3e. However, unlike especially 3e, this isn't really a bad thing. Paladins start casting their spells at Lv. 2, making their spellcasting a vital and working part of the class. Furthermore, with the way casting Difficulty Classes scale now, based on proficiency bonus and casting stat, a spell cast by a Paladin is no less effective than that same spell cast by a Cleric or Wizard. Moreover, while Paladins only top out at Lv. 5 spells, they top out with the same number of slots from Lv. 1-4 as full casters do, and only one less Lv. 5 slot; plus with full casters' Lv. 6-9 slots coming at a premium in this edition, the truth is that Paladins, as concerns the number of spells they can cast per day, are not terribly far behind the full casters.
Paladins have traditionally been among the most multiple-attribute dependant (MAD) classes in D&D history. In 5e, that holds true to the extent of what MAD is in this edition, which simply means requiring a peak physical and mental stat to get the most out of the class, limiting the number of feats that the Paladin can reasonably take. Paladins in 5e want peak Strength (or Dexterity) and Charisma scores (with some Constitution), but that is a far better situation than in the past. Decoupling spellcasting from Wisdom (as it was in 3e) and attaching it to Charisma instead was a major boon for the class this time around; in fact, Paladins have no Wisdom-dependent abilities this time around (unlike 3e and 4e).
The abilities that Paladins get as they level in this edition are far, far more robust than in editions past. Aside from getting spellcasting earlier (and better spells along with that), they get several auras that benefit both them and their nearby allies, which include the classical Charisma bonus to all saving throws and even some straight-up immunities and resistances to some common effects and attacks. They can also smite a lot more often and for more damage, using their spell slots to power them, and thankfully this smiting is no longer alignment-restricted. Their Lay on Hands is still a solid source of healing and is also much more versatile this time around, being able to heal poisons and diseases as well.
Strengths and weaknesses
Strengths:
- Very versatile class as far as physical combatants go. Can heal, protect, spike their damage, wear the best armor, and buff the entire party's combat abilities.
- One Oath (Vengeance) is among the most damaging in the entire game against one powerful enemy every short rest.
- The second-deadliest reaction attacks in the game, after the Rogue, thanks to Divine Smite, which can make the Paladin as effective as a 4e-style "Defender" can get.
- High Charisma means solid social skills performance, and Paladins also get access to Persuasion and Intimidation on their class' list.
- Immune to diseases as early as Lv. 3, and auras later on not only increase their saves and flat-out negate some of the most common and potentially deadly conditions, but extend that benefit to their allies.
- Proficiency in Wisdom saves out of the box, the ability that some of the nastiest effects in the game target.
Weaknesses:
-
Weak in ranged combat. Most of a Paladin’s major combat features and spells are geared toward melee combat. Thus when forced into a ranged-heavy battle, Paladins function at a fraction of their offensive power.
-
Generally weak against hordes. This depends on the Oath, but anti-horde spells and features are mostly either highly situational or lacking altogether.
- While MAD isn't nearly the devastating weakness it was in editions past, it still means Paladins must limit the number of feats they take, and must pick wisely.
- Reliant on spells (buffs or smites) for most of their big damage. Even with Improved Divine Smite from Lv. 11 on, the Paladin's base, unbuffed DPR isn't going to match a Fighter's after that level. That divide becomes more pronounced with magic weapons and feats like Great Weapon Master in the mix.
II. Proficiencies, Attributes, Backgrounds and Class Features
Proficiencies
Armor: All armor and shields is as good as it gets.
Weapons: All simple and martial weapons is as good as it gets.
Tools: None. If you get any proficiencies here, they'll likely be from your background. Also, at least you can actually spend money and downtime to pick up proficiencies in this category.
Saving Throws: Every class gets one "common" save (DEX, CON, WIS) and one "uncommon" save (STR, INT, CHA). Yours are Wisdom and Charisma. Wisdom is the target for some of the nastiest mind-effecting conditions in the game, so to have proficiency here is both thematic and very good in practice. And while Charisma saves are very rare, they mostly deal with banishment effects, so it’s sure nice to have around when something’s trying to send you to another plane.
Skills: Pick two from the following. (Your background will give you more skill proficiencies, which are not restricted to this list. Your race may also give you more chances to pick skill proficiencies, again not limited to this list.)
- Athletics (STR): Helps you climb, jump, and swim. More importantly, it can help you break out of grapples and resist shoves. And, if you’re STR-based, grappling and shoving become viable combat options for you. In any case, a great pick. If the Shield Master feat is in your plans, this is mandatory because it governs how effective your shove is.
- Insight (WIS): Good for countering against lies and attempts to deceive you, so it’s a fairly important skill. Taking proficiency in this helps make up for a likely average WIS.
- Intimidation (CHA): One of the social skills you're bound to be good at with a high CHA. Whether you pick proficiency in this or Persuasion will largely depend on personality; if you want to be a mean Paladin, take this.
- Medicine (WIS): Bleh. Your WIS will probably be average, and besides that, you throw around enough healing magic in various forms to where the need to mundanely stabilize someone or diagnose a disease are rare.
- Persuasion (CHA): Another social skill, and while YMMV, probably comes up in more crucial gatherings, if not more often than Intimidation in a lot of cases. In any case, a prime pick.
- Religion (INT): Uses the attribute that is very likely to be your dump stat, and even if it didn’t, it’s not exactly a useful skill to begin with. Do not waste your proficiency on this.
Non-class skills: You can’t get these with your class options, but you might get these from your background or race:
- Perception (WIS): If you can get proficiency in this all-important skill somehow, do so. Group Perception checks are common when spotting enemies trying to ambush you, and you don’t want to be a liability.
- Stealth (DEX): If you choose to attack using DEX instead of STR (a viable option for a Paladin this time around), you just might want proficiency here. Assassin allies will thank you for it.
- Acrobatics (DEX): For DEX-based Paladins, this is often a substitute for Athletics. It’s the DEX option for escaping from grapples and resisting shoves (but NOT for grappling or shoving yourself), and it can also do things like help you stay on your feet or on a tightrope.
- Survival (WIS): An all-around useful skill in the exploration tier when stuck in the wilderness.
- Deception (CHA): You’ll certainly be good at it, and it can be useful if you need to work undercover, stay in disguise, and so forth. Out of character for Oath of Devotion, but others can appreciate it.
- Animal Handling (WIS): You might consider this one if you plan on being mounted a lot.
- Sleight of Hand (DEX): Shouldn’t be a priority, but not really a waste either if you get it from a background. Can come in handy.
- Performance (CHA): Can be a solid source of income during downtime, if nothing else. Definitely not a priority, though.
- Investigation (INT): The only remotely useful INT skill, but not good enough to want to invest in that attribute.
- Arcana/History/Nature (INT): Like Religion, pretty much useless for you and not very useful skills regardless.
Attributes
In general, if you play a game that uses point buy, you'll definitely want to buy an array that starts with two 15s to put in your attack stat and Charisma. (e.g. 15, 15, 13, 10, 10, 8). Depending on your race and the attribute bonuses you get from your race, you might make a fine adjustment to 15, 14, 14, etc., or whatever.
The attributes in order of how you'll want to prioritize them:
- Strength OR Dexterity: Your attack attribute. You are a weapon-based combatant, first and foremost, so you want this as your highest to start, and you want to get it to the maximum 20 as soon as possible. (And yes, indeed, Paladins who attack with DEX using a finesse weapon are completely viable in this edition; they lose nothing out of their class features from doing so and carry with them their own advantages such as a higher Initiative, cheaper armor, a saving throw that is tested far moreso than Strength is, the ability to go stealthy, and better ranged weapon options.)
- Charisma: Every Paladin needs this. CHA does many things for this class. Arguably the most significant is the bonus to all of your saves (and nearby allies' saves) that gets applied starting at 6th level with Aura of Protection. Also of importance, your spell and Channel Divinity DC are based on CHA. And finally, it determines the amount of times per day you can use Divine Sense and, later, Cleansing Touch. This should be your second-highest attribute to start, and you'll eventually want to get this up to 20 as well (but not before your attack stat). If you really want some feats I could see topping this at an 18, but definitely no lower.
- Constitution: Should definitely be your third-highest stat. More hit points is always good, for one. Constitution is also an attribute that, like Wisdom, gets targeted often and by some of the nastiest effects in the game. And finally, if you plan on casting Concentration spells in the middle of combat, you want a decent score here to maintain them when taking damage. You'll want this around 14-16 for most of your career; if you're playing in a game where feats aren't an option, definitely put any ability score increases after maxing out your attack stat and Charisma here.
- Wisdom: A stat you can be content to leave in the 10-12 range. It helps that the Paladin is proficient in Wisdom saves. Boost Charisma instead and let Aura of Protection take care of the rest. You do NOT want a penalty here, though; aside from it being a major save attribute, some very good skills are attached to this attribute.
- Dexterity OR Strength: Basically, whichever of the two you didn't take as your attack stat. You do NOT want a penalty in Dexterity if you’re attacking with Strength, however, since you don't want a penalty to initiative and to its oft-tested saving throw. Put a 10 there and be done with it. On the other hand, if you’re attacking with Dexterity, Strength is actually a viable dump stat IF you don’t plan to multiclass. (If you DO plan to multiclass, you’ll need STR 13 to qualify.)
- Intelligence: The "Paladunce" is alive and well. And for good reason, as INT is the least-tested saving throw, even less so than STR and CHA, is attached to skills you will likely never use, and helps none of your class features. Dump it. Hard.
Backgrounds
You can customize your background with help from your DM, but here are the "official" backgrounds.
Also keep in mind that if a background gives you a skill you already had from your class or race, you get to pick any other skill to replace it (including a non-class skill). This is a good way to pick up something like Perception, Acrobatics or Stealth.
Acolyte: Thematically appropriate, for sure, but mechanically it leaves a lot to be desired. Insight is good; Religion, not so much. No tools proficiency, either; tools are generally a better proficiency to begin with than languages (although you can learn both anyway through downtime and money). At least the free healing and care from temples of your religion is nice?
Charlatan: Interesting dissonance in theme versus the typical Paladin, to say the least, but actually pretty solid for a DEX-Paladin. Deception’s good, Sleight of Hand is OK. Also nice tool proficiencies in disguise kit and forgery kit, and False Identity is a feature that can come in handy.
Criminal/Spy: Another dissonant theme (maybe less so if you say you're a Spy), but damn, it's a great pick for DEX-Paladins, especially if you want to go Stealth. You'll make great use of Deception as well, and proficiency in thieves' tools is icing on the cake. Having contacts is pretty nifty, too.
Entertainer/Gladiator: You'll certainly put Performance to good use, and if you're a DEX-Paladin, Acrobatics as well. Other than that, pretty average.
Folk Hero: Pretty average as well. Animal Handling is OK and Survival is solid, though.
Guild Artisan/Guild Merchant: Good skill proficiencies in Insight and Persuasion, with a set of artisan's tools (or navigator's if Merchant) as a proficiency. And guild membership's benefits are pretty nice.
Hermit: Nope. One marginal at best skill and another that's completely worthless to you.
Noble/Knight: Very thematically appropriate, but a mixed bag mechanically. Persuasion is awesome, but History is worthless. Position of Privilege or (if a Knight) Retainers are both nice features, though.
Outlander: Athletics is great, Survival is good, and the Wanderer feature's exploration benefits and free food and fresh water make for a solid background.
Sage: Worthless skills, and the feature isn't something a Paladin is likely to use either. Avoid.
Sailor/Pirate: Two winning skills in Athletics and Perception. Good tools proficiencies in navigator's tools and water vehicles, and both Ship's Passage and the Pirate's Bad Reputation certainly have their uses. A top background choice, for sure. (Pirate’s got some interesting dissonance, though.)
Soldier: Two skills right up a Paladin's alley in Athletics and Intimidation, land vehicles profieicncy and the potentially wonderful campaign benefits of Military Rank. Can't ask for much better than that. Thematically perfect for a classic Paladin, too.
Urchin: Much like Criminal/Spy, great for DEX-Paladins who want to go Stealth. You get Sleight of Hand, too, and also thieves' tools and disguise kit proficiencies. And City Secrets is great for navigation in urban areas.
Class Features
Lv. 1
Divine Sense: No longer the always-on evil radar that it was in editions past, you now have to be judicious about when to use this with its limited uses per day. The range is very limited on it, too (just 60 feet). It's probably most likely to be used in situations when you might suspect something is a fiend in disguise.
Lay on Hands: The classical Paladin healing ability, and this time around its versatility is greatly increased. Its raw healing numbers, which scale well with level, are solid for a power supplemental to your (or the Cleric's or Bard's) healing spells, but better still is the ability to neutralize poison and cure diseases with your touch (costing 5 HPs from the pool).
Lv. 2
Fighting Style: Choose one among the following.
- Defense: Nothing wrong with it, per se, but an offensive style should be a higher priority. That said, this does make a fine second style if you get one from, say, a Fighter multiclass.
- Dueling: The best choice if you plan to primarily use a one-handed weapon, thanks to the flat damage bonus on each hit.
- Great Weapon Fighting: Rerolling 1s and 2s on damage dice for an attack with a two-hander makes for a neat damage bonus. And since it applies to all dice rolled on an attack, this benefits stuff like Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, Divine Favor, Elemental Weapon, smite spells and what have you. A must for two-handed weapon users.
- Protection: Again, I prefer offense, but this shield-exclusive style is good at what it does. With this, you’ll want to finish your movement for the round next to someone under duress when you need to protect them. Does lose its value if you plan to get other defender-style reactions like from the Sentinel feat.
-
Mariner (UA: Waterborne): You gain a swimming and climbing speed in light or medium armor and no shield, along with +1 AC. For DEX-Paladins who dual-wield, this is strictly better than Defense.
Spellcasting: Despite being only a half-caster, the Paladin’s spellcasting ability — which comes online earlier than ever before — is quite potent and is where much of the class’ power lies. And as far as spellcasting mechanics go, Paladins have it pretty damn good. They get immediate access to their class’ entire spell list as they hit the levels for new spells, and they prepare their spells (rather than learn a limited repertoire), giving them amazing day-to-day versatility. They use a holy symbol as their standard material component/focus, which is about the best type there is since it can either be worn as an amulet or embossed on their shield. Their spell list is pretty solid, too, full of some of the most staple combat buffs, quality healing spells and bonus-action smite spells that make them do a burst of extra damage and often a harsh status effect on a following weapon hit.
Divine Smite: The cornerstone of your burst damage ability. This one can especially become devastating on a critical hit, in which case the damage dice from this are doubled. (Incredible especially if you're attacking something under, say, a Hold Person/Monster spell!) Another key thing to remember about this is that it uses no action whatsoever, which means you can use it multiple times per round if you have additional attacks, can use it on the same turn you cast a bonus action spell (including stacking this on top of a smite spell!), and can use it on reaction attacks (making your Opportunity Attacks or attacks from the Sentinel feat especially threatening!). NOTE: The 5d8 cap means the maximum damage from this uses a 4th-level spell slot, so you get no benefit from blowing a 5th-level slot. This may need to be errata-ed to a 6d8 cap.
Lv. 3
Oaths will be described under their own section.
Divine Health: Immunity to diseases, straight up. Fantastic ability to get at Lv. 3, especially.
Lv. 4 (8, 12, 16, 19)
Ability Score Improvements: You get the standard 5 that everyone else who isn't the Fighter or Rogue gets. Because you want both a high physical attack stat (STR or DEX) and a high CHA, you're only going to have room for one or two feats if your game includes them.
Lv. 5
Extra Attack: Obviously great; at this level it literally doubles the power of your Attack action. Like every other major weapon-using class that isn't the Fighter, this caps at two attacks.
Lv. 6
Aura of Protection: Arguably the signature of the Paladin class, where you add your CHA modifier to all of your saving throws. And if allies are within 10 feet, they get that benefit, too. For you, this typically means a strong WIS save between proficiency there and letting CHA do the rest. Also, with a CON around a +2 or +3 modifier, add this on top of it and your CON saves will be at least passable for a few levels despite lack of proficiency; very important if you want to maintain Concentration spells. If you do somehow get CON save proficiency (such as from taking the Resilient feat), this feature can help push your Concentration checks into auto-save territory, which is a godsend.
Lv. 10
Aura of Courage: Flat immunity to the frightened condition, also with the 10 feet range to extend to allies. A very good thing considering how many boss-type creatures look to have a fear power of some sort; as a melee combatant you'll need to get close, and avoiding disadvantage on attack rolls is also important.
Lv. 11
Improved Divine Smite: Your second-half source of extra damage; where Fighters get a third attack on their Attack action, you get a flat 1d8 extra radiant damage to add to all melee attacks you make (but not ranged). While this doesn't quite match the potential of a third attack, and the damage bonuses from certain feats and magical weapons that accrue with more attacks, it is significant. And it does give you one key advantage: It makes any bonus action, reaction, or other such extra attacks you might get to make more threatening than the Fighter's (e.g. Polearm Master, dual-wielding, opportunity attacks, Sentinel, Haste, Commander’s Strike, etc.). This feature also makes you particularly effective against powerful undead creatures, many of whom have strong features that get disrupted by radiant damage.
Lv. 14
Cleansing Touch: Negate a hostile spell on yourself or an ally with your action, with CHA-mod uses per day. Pretty neat ability, if not quite a flat-out gamechanger.
Lv. 18
Aura Improvements: All those lovely Auras you get (Protection, Courage, anything from your Oath) expand from 10 feet to 30 feet. Whereas before it was pretty situational that your allies got your Auras' benefits, now it's practically a sure thing.
III. Oaths
Oaths are such a defining part of a Paladin that they get their own section. The choice of Oath you make at Lv. 3 will greatly affect the way your character not only plays, but their outlook and world view.
Oath of Devotion: This is the "Classical Lawful Good Paladin" Oath, with an overall balance between offense and defense mechanically. And something to be especially thankful for is the way the tenets are written; they essentially nip the "Lawful Stupid" trope right in the bud. For example, Courage includes the admonition "caution is wise," so, no, don't go charging ahead at that Ancient Red Dragon to your doom. Compassion, likewise, "Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom," because some enemies just might be too dangerous to leave alive (but give them a swift and clean death; do not torture). And Duty's, "obey those who have just authority over you," so if you can prove that someone's authority is not just then you have no obligation to follow their word.
- Sacred Weapon: Lv. 3, Channel Divinity (1 total/short rest). An action to add your CHA-modifier to attack rolls for a minute (10 rounds). Does not require Concentration to maintain (thus stacks with any other buffs) and does not count as a spell (which means you can cast a swift spell in the same round). Since it’s an action to activate, you’ll want to use this power a round or two before you anticipate the start of combat for best results. A very good ability for that climactic fight during that part of the day.
- Turn the Unholy: Lv. 3, Channel Divinity (1 total/short rest). The classical Paladin's Turn Undead ability, with the additional twist of turning fiends as well. Can't destroy them the way a Cleric does Undead, but making them run away is still pretty good. This one is definitely best used against a horde of such enemy types; obviously situational, but considering your class' overall weakness against hordes in general you take what you can get there.
- Oath Spells (overall rating): Lv. 3. This Oath has four spells already on the Paladin list, by far the most in that category, making it gain the lowest rating among the Oaths by default. It does have a couple of really nice additions, however, namely Sanctuary and Freedom of Movement.
- Aura of Devotion: Lv. 7. Straight-up immunity to charms, and the ability to spread it to allies within aura range. Don't have to explain why this is fantastic, do I?
- Purity of Spirit: Lv. 15. Basically, this means aberrations, fiends, undead, fey, elementals and celestials will always attack you at disadvantage (and less importantly, they can't possess you). The benefits of this will definitely be felt against hordes of weaker enemies of these types. On the other hand, high-CR bosses of these creature types will often have high enough attack bonuses to make disadvantage not such a big deal to them — unless you’re wearing +X armor/shield of some sort.
- Holy Nimbus: Lv. 20 (1/day). You’re only going to bust this capstone out in a fight involving multiple enemies, or better still a horde, in which case you can rack up the damage figures round-to-round with the auto damage out to 30 feet. Does not count as a spell, so feel free to cast a swift spell on the same turn.
Oath of the Ancients: This nature-themed Oath is most closely mapped to the Neutral Good alignment and even works in character with a Chaotic Good alignment. In quite a few ways, it evokes the spirit of the AD&D Ranger (which, if you recall, also required any Good alignment, but at least allowed Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic Good). Mechanically, this Oath is the most defensively inclined of the three, particularly against damaging magic. It's also easily the best Oath at dealing with hordes.
- Nature's Wrath: Lv. 3, Channel Divinity (1 total/short rest). An action to restrain an enemy within 10 feet. Requires a save to work, and does allow the enemy to try to save after every turn. Restraining is pretty nice, however, since it makes the enemy yield advantage to you and all your allies.
- Turn the Faithless: Lv. 3, Channel Divinity (1 total/short rest). Like Devotion's Turn the Unholy, except replace the undead with fey (still turns fiends, too). Again, best used against hordes of those creature types, and at least gives you a situational anti-horde tool.
- Oath Spells (overall rating): Lv. 3. None of the spells on your list are stock Paladin spells, and there are definitely some quality additions from this Oath, such as Ensnaring Strike, Misty Step, Moonbeam, Protection from Energy, Ice Storm, Stoneskin and Tree Stride. Moonbeam and Ice Storm, in particular, are viable anti-horde tools that no other Paladin gets.
- Aura of Warding: Lv. 7. Cuts all magic damage against you and allies in your aura in half! Too good.
- Undying Sentinel: Lv. 15. Once-per-day ability to stay upright at 1 hit point when you would be KO-ed, plus anti-aging stuff. Fair enough.
- Elder Champion: Lv. 20 (1/day). This capstone essentially works out as a way to get regeneration for the battle and start it off with a control spell that’s harder to resist thanks to the disadvantage on the saving throws. Takes the action to cast, and then use the bonus action you gain that first round to cast your spell.
Oath of Vengeance: Mapped mostly to the Neutral and Lawful Neutral alignments, you take this Oath for two reasons — (1) you like getting dirty doing your divine work, and (2) you want to be the most effective at killing and killing quickly. This Oath is easily the most offensive of the three; in fact, against one big enemy per short rest, you're among the best round-to-round damage dealers in the game. And while you don't get any real defensive options from this Oath, the core of the Paladin class has enough of those that it doesn't really matter. If you can be said to have a weakness, it's that you're even less effective in horde battles than Paladins of the other two Oaths, since you don't get any special horde-clearing abilities.
- Abjure Enemy: Lv. 3, Channel Divinity (1 total/short rest). Has its uses, the big one being potentially keeping one melee-inclined enemy out of the fight while your party deals with its buddies, then saving that enemy for last. May also be useful when you need to capture someone alive and prevent them from escaping. However, if at all possible, you’ll typically want to save your Channel Divinity use for the Vengeance Paladin’s other option.
- Vow of Enmity: Lv. 3, Channel Divinity (1 total/short rest). When it's big and bad and positively needs to die, accept no substitute. This power, activated as a bonus action, gives you advantage, straight up and no strings attached, against the enemy you target. Obviously, you will ONLY use this against a boss enemy, but when you do, you have potential to be among the most damaging combatants round-to-round in the entire game.
- Oath Spells (overall rating): Lv. 3. Good gods, is your list loaded. Hold Person, Misty Step, Haste, Dimension Door, Hold Monster ... all spells the default Paladin list doesn't get, and all to make you the coldest killer on the block.
- Relentless Avenger: Lv. 7. Free movement after an opportunity attack helps you stay near your target ready to strike.
- Soul of Vengeance: Lv. 15. An upgrade to your Vow of Enmity that makes it even more devastating, letting you make a reaction melee attack against your Vow target if they make an attack, against anyone. Even if that boss enemy has reach (likely at this level), if you ended your movement next to it and the enemy has to start its turn with you bearing down, it faces the choice between trying to get away from you (eating an Opportunity Attack if it can't teleport), attacking (eating the attack from this feature), or Disengaging (most likely not making an attack that turn). Also note the timing if it tries to attack you — since it's triggered on making an attack, and not when it hits or misses, you still get a whack in even if that attack happened to come with forced movement or inflict a condition that would've denied your ability to make reactions.
- Avenging Angel: Lv. 20 (1/day). You get flight that doesn’t require concentration and can’t be dispelled. And it lasts for a full hour, unlike the other Oaths' capstones, which puts it a cut above those. The frightening aura is a nice bonus, too.
Oathbreaker (DMG): Not an actual “Oath,” but rather the path a DM may let you take if you break your Oath unrepentantly and turn entirely over to the “dark side.” Becoming a full-blown evil Oathbreaker (or what was classically referred to as an Antipaladin or Blackguard) definitely has its perks gameplay-wise, mostly geared toward offense. It even has a pretty strong anti-horde debuff as a Channel Divinity power.
- Control Undead: Lv. 3, Channel Divinity (1 total/short rest). This one can get really, really powerful as you level. Pretty much any undead creature without Legendary Resistance that’s at least 1 CR lower than your level is fair game to be controlled for an entire day. Imagine yourself at Lv. 18 in full command of a Death Knight. Good times.
- Dreadful Aspect: Lv. 3, Channel Divinity (1 total/short rest). Mass frightening on everyone you choose within 30 feet of you for a full minute. Doesn’t get much better than that.
- Oathbreaker Spells (overall rating): Lv. 3. Unlike the Oath lists of the more righteous, the Oathbreaker spell list is very much a mixed bag. There are some real duds on this list (Hellish Rebuke, Inflict Wounds, Crown of Madness), but on the flip side, there are also some pretty good additions (Animate Dead, Confusion).
- Aura of Hate: Lv. 7. The chief offense-boosting feature of the Oathbreaker with CHA-mod damage bonus to all of your melee attacks, plus the melee attacks of any undead and fiends. This aura has some wonderful synergy involving any undead creature on which you used Control Undead, as well as some undead foot soldiers you gained with your Animate Dead Oathbreaker spell (or better still, if you have a necromancer ally providing you with an Animate Dead army). Note, however, that this aura boosts enemy undead and fiends as well, so in fights against those creature types this ability becomes a double-edged sword. Hey, being evil had to come at a price, somehow.
- Supernatural Resistance: Lv. 15. Resistance to all the usual weapon damage types from nonmagical weapons. You’d be surprised at just how many monsters that protects you from, even some legendary monsters with really high CRs. That includes all dragons and even the Tarrasque.
- Dread Lord: Lv. 20 (1/day). One of the better Paladin capstones with a host of nice benefits, best cast in the next round after you used your Dreadful Aspect, in which case you can rack up some pretty serious auto-damage figures. The other really nice part includes forcing disadvantage on enemies’ attacks against you and any allies, and the bonus action melee spell attack is a neat side benefit if you weren’t already attacking consistently with a bonus action.
IV. Races
Dwarf: +2 to CON is a big deal, along with advantage on saves vs. and resistance to poison, and Darkvision. Bonus proficiencies in an artisan's tools are a neat little bonus.
- Mountain: +2 to STR makes this the obvious subrace of choice for a STR-Paladin.
- Hill: Not bad for DEX-Paladins, with the extra hit point per level being quite nice, and the +1 WIS isn’t entirely a waste with the right configuration. STR-Paladins should definitely go Mountain, though.
Elf: All Elves get a +2 to DEX, so make that your attack stat. Immunity to magical sleep and advantage vs. charms are very good, as are Darkvision, Trance and automatic proficiency in the all-important skill Perception.
- Wood: +1 WIS is fair, but the real perks are bonus to speed and Stealth in lightly obscured conditions.
- Drow: The best subrace stats-wise with its +1 to CHA, along with your Drow magic using CHA and being useful in your arsenal. However, Sunlight Sensitivity can be quite the inconvenience, but at least it requires direct sunlight to trigger, so it could've been worse.
- High: Don’t even think about it. INT bonus is useless, as is the INT-based cantrip.
- Eladrin (DMG example): Still with the worthless +1 INT, but at least Misty Step 1/short rest is worth something.
Halfling: +2 to DEX, so you know which route to go with your attack stat. Lucky is straight-up awesome, protecting you from that dreaded natural 1, and moving through occupied spaces opens up a lot of options on the battlefield.
- Lightfoot: Superior stats-wise with its +1 CHA, and if you’re somehow a stealthy type, hiding behind a Medium or larger ally is definitely useful.
- Stout: The +1 CON of this subrace is still pretty good, and plucking the Dwarf's anti-poison defenses is useful to a wider range of builds.
Human: Meant to be the most versatile race. One particular variant delivers on that promise.
- Default/Stock: +1 to all attributes is all they get. This effectively allows you to point buy an array such as 15, 15, 14, 9, 9, 8. The +1s will bump your fourth and fifth stats out of penalty territory, and since Paladins only have one real dump stat (INT), only one of those bonus points is truly wasted. Plus you wound up with a cool net gain on your tertiary. So, for that reason, the default Human isn’t the total waste like it is for some other classes; that said, it’s hardly inspiring.
- Variant: The Variant Human, on the other hand, is absolutely fantastic, and in a game that uses feats, arguably the best race for this class considering its attribute needs. The bonus feat means you get a potentially build-making ability at Lv. 1 that other races have to wait until at least Lv. 4 to get, while being a full ASI ahead. That’s huge. And just having an extra feat on top of the other one, maybe two, you planned to take is also really beneficial. On top of that, you get two +1s you can put in any attributes you want (make those your attack stat and CHA), as well as a skill proficiency of your choice (ahem, Perception).
V. Feats
Again, with the Paladin demanding intensive attention both on a physical stat (STR or DEX) and on CHA, the opportunities to take feats are very limited. A typical Paladin with at least +2 worth of bonuses in relevant stats and a 15, 15, 13, 10, 10, 8 point buy can take only one feat (two if a Variant Human) if they want 20s in both their attack stat and CHA. A second feat (third if Variant Human) might be worth the sacrifice of a 20 CHA, at least, for a few builds.
Because feats are going to come at a premium for Paladins, it’s very important to pick wisely, and preferably with an eye toward the long term. Hence, only feats that Paladins conceivably would consider will be mentioned here.
If using a two-handed weapon:
- Great Weapon Master: A bonus action attack whenever you kill an enemy essentially serves as overkill protection and is great in fights against multiple foes and hordes (again, your class' weakness). Getting that on a crit also makes it decent against a boss. As for the -5 to hit for +10 to damage per hit trade, you'll mainly be using that if you get your attack rolls buffed in some way (e.g. Advantage from Vow of Enmity, bonus from Sacred Weapon), in which case your damage potential climbs dramatically. If you're Vengeance and using a greatsword, consider this mandatory, since between the Vow and your Oath spells you’ll be getting advantage and extra attacks often. If you’re using a polearm, Polearm Master is the higher priority, although the -5 hit /+10 damage trade from this certainly plays nice in addition on the butt-end attack from Polearm Master if you’re going for pure damage.
If using a glaive or halberd:
- Polearm Master: Let’s face it, this feat is THE VERY REASON you’d want to use a glaive or halberd. Getting an extra trigger for an OA — when the enemy moves to your 10-foot reach — is huge, and a reliable source of reaction attacks. Bonus action is covered, too, with an attack with the butt end of your weapon that even adds your STR modifier (and plays very well with your Improved Divine Smite!). This feat combos very well with Sentinel, in which case your OAs upon approach stop your enemy dead in their tracks. That’s a combo worth sacrificing a 20 CHA for. Or if you just prefer raw damage, take Great Weapon Master for its -5 hit/+10 damage trade instead, which works its magic on the butt-end attack.
If using a shield:
- Shield Master: Solid set of benefits, with some limitations on them all that keep this feat from true greatness. The bonus action to shove is great if you’re a STR-attacker with Athletics proficiency, creating free advantage for your ensuing Attack action if you choose the prone option — but remember that shove is limited to Large or smaller. Shield bonus to DEX save, likewise, great against single-target effects, but no use against area of effect abilities like a dragon’s breath. The last benefit gives you a partial Evasion-type effect when you make any DEX save (this one works against AoEs), using your reaction to take no damage; a DEX-attacker will actually benefit from this quite often with Aura of Protection in play, but STR-attackers not quite as much. Overall, still a very good pick, but just mind the limitations.
General options:
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Alert: +5 to initiative is good for just about everyone, and you’re no exception. Getting to act at least before the enemy gets to take a turn can be pretty huge. And, you know, if your Wizard ally gets off a Hold Monster, it’d be nice if you got in your auto-crit smites before the enemy got a chance to save, eh?
- Defensive Duelist: Worthy pick for DEX-Paladins with a finesse weapon, who stand a pretty good chance of turning a hit against them into a miss every round. Does use your reaction to do that, though.
- Heavy Armor Master: Absolutely fantastic for a 1st-level Variant Human, when the 3-point damage reduction vs. nonmagical weapons will be of the highest benefit (plus with the +1 STR attached to this feat, it's a way for a Variant Human to start with effectively a +2 STR bonus). The benefit does taper off at higher levels vs. harder-hitting enemies or enemies who have some sort of magical weapons, but even then it’s still a neat boost to overall survivability numbers, particularly against enemies with Multiattack.
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Inspiring Leader: You’ll certainly qualify for it, and if you’re expected to play more of a leadership/support role, this is easily a top-tier choice. Between short rests you grant yourself and all allies in a typical party an amount of temporary hit points not much less than a Cleric’s Mass Cure Wounds spell can heal.
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Lucky: Hardly a character-defining feat like others on the list, but its 3 per-day rerolls of a d20 is a solid enough benefit to be mentioned here.
- Mounted Combatant: All Paladins get easy access to a mount via their 2nd-level spell Find Steed. With that in mind, this one is fantastic in a mounted combat-friendly campaign (i.e. ones that take place more outdoors than in dungeons or buildings). Aside from the constant advantage on attacks vs. enemies smaller than your mount, the largest benefit is the ability to take the hits for attacks targeted at your mount. Giving your mount an Evasion-type effect on DEX saves can also be a real mount-saver, particularly working with your Aura of Protection.
- Resilient (Constitution): Getting proficiency in CON saves, along with a +1 to CON itself, is as good a pick as any for you. CON is targeted often and by some of the nastiest stuff in the game. And then there's Concentration checks so you can keep your buff and smite spells alive when taking damage; in fact, combined with Aura of Protection and a decent CON bonus (+2 or +3) you can get Concentration checks into auto-save territory against most typical instances of monster damage. (e.g. Lv. 9 Paladin with CHA 16, CON 14, and Resilient = +3 CHA +2 CON +4 proficiency = auto-save on DC 10 checks.)
- Sentinel: If you played the Fighter in 4th Edition, this will look very familiar; it pretty much gives you that Fighter’s two main Defender mechanics used to punish an enemy and/or keep them stuck next to you. This feat becomes MUCH more effective if your DM has marking in effect (DMG p. 271), in which case you’ll be able to get those speed-sapping OAs against more than just one enemy every round. The other case in which this feat becomes much more valuable, as mentioned before, is with Polearm Master.
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War Caster: A nigh-mandatory pick for arcane gish-types, but for you … not nearly so. That’s because of the beauty of holy symbols that can be inlaid on your shield, taking care of the requirements to cast V,S,M spells even fully armed and shielded. As for V,S spells, just cast them before you draw your weapon. If you’re using a two-hander, or otherwise don’t use a shield, you’re golden for both V,S,M and V,S spells fully armed with a holy symbol worn as an amulet. In any event, Resilient (CON) is a much higher-priority choice for Paladins, by far. On the other hand, if you’re multiclassing with an arcane caster somehow, then this feat starts looking appealing again.
VI. Spells
You are a class that prepares spells and has access to the whole list when you do prepare them, same as the Cleric, which gives you some degree of versatility and flexibility day to day. But with that said, it helps to know the best options so you can keep the mornings you prepare a new slate of spells to a minimum.
The number of spells you can prepare equals half your paladin level + CHA, which most of the time roughly works out between two and three spells per spell level, assuming you're equal between spell levels (that part may vary).
For your convenience, spells will have their components listed, along with their action type (action, reaction, bonus action) and if they require Concentration. An "M" with an asterisk (*) means that the material component has a cost and/or is consumed by the spell, which means you can't use your holy symbol to cast it.
Bless: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. Keep prepared at all times. The +1d4 (average +2.5 bonus) to all attack rolls and saving throws makes this THE top-priority party-wide buffing spell for perhaps your entire career. Especially important if you’re the only divine caster in the party, but even if there is a Cleric around, keeping this prepared frees up the Cleric’s Concentration options (and vice versa; a Cleric with Bless opens up your options). Also interesting to note that if you Bless yourself, this spell is easier than others to make Concentration checks for, thanks to the saves buff. For the most efficient use of your actions, cast in a round before you anticipate combat, or in a round when you couldn’t make a melee attack, anyway.
Command: 1 action; V. A WIS-save spell that can result in a lovely barrage of OAs if you and your melee allies surround it on casting and you command it to flee. Otherwise, you can make the enemy waste its turn, amounting to a soft stun of sorts. Has some targeting limitations (ineffective vs. undead, those who don’t understand your language), but this will work in more than enough battles that you will want it prepared the vast majority of the time.
Wrathful Smite: 1 bonus action; V; Concentration. 1d6 extra psychic damage, and the far more vital detail of making the enemy frightened of you if it fails a WIS save. Frightened means disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks, which is very potent. But the best part comes when it tries to end the spell early; you make the enemy waste an action to do so, and they have to make a WIS CHECK (NOT a save) to end it. Why is that a huge distinction? Because (a) even if they’re proficient in WIS saves, they can’t add their proficiency bonus, and (b) being frightened, they have disadvantage on the check to end it! This smite spell really takes a huge bite out of any physical attacker that isn’t immune to fear. The only knock against this spell is that the damage can’t scale with upcasting, but compared to how strong the effect is, who cares?
Heroism: 1 action; V,S; Concentration. Free temporary hit points every round and immunity to fear! Bless is still higher priority, but if a Cleric has that taken care of this one’s quite nice for the first nine levels of play, in particular (it tapers off Lv. 10 and beyond once you get Aura of Courage and 3rd-level spells). Other than you, only the Bard has this one on its list.
Compelled Duel: 1 bonus action; V; Concentration. If you're familiar with the 4e Paladin, this is pretty much the analog to that Paladin's Divine Challenge, except without the radiant zap. This one requires a WIS save, but also makes the enemy attack everyone except you at disadvantage, typically a stronger penalty than the 4e mark was. It also keeps the enemy from escaping you unless it makes a WIS save. Decent one to keep on reserve against a boss.
Cure Wounds: 1 action; V,S. Your classic D&D healing spell, scalable with higher spell slots. It’s not a bad idea to keep this prepared early, but it’s quickly outclassed by the time you get 3rd-level spells.
Protection from Evil and Good: 1 action; V,S,M*; Concentration. This spell is on most full spellcasters' class lists, so while it is indeed good when anticipating fights against the listed enemies, it's probably best to leave this one to the full casters, so you can save your preparations for more offensive output. Devotion Paladins don't need to prepare this one at all, since it's on their Oath list.
Purify Food and Drink: 1 action; V,S. A good utility spell to prepare for social and exploration settings.
Shield of Faith: 1 bonus action; V,S,M; Concentration. +2 to AC is pretty decent, and it greatly helps that this is cast as a bonus action. Note you can cast this on yourself instead of an ally if you need to. A fair defensive pick if you're not the one needing to concentrate on Bless.
Thunderous Smite: 1 bonus action; V; Concentration. Quite good from Lv. 1-4. 2d6 extra thunder damage (nearly as strong as a Divine Smite for the same level) with push and prone as a nice little bonus. Stack a Divine Smite on top of this for a strong nova at early levels. Unfortunately, this spell does not do any more damage when upcast and quickly loses its luster from Lv. 5 onwards.
Detect Magic: 1 action; V,S; Concentration. At least this one isn't redundant with Divine Sense, but still, there's better use of your preparations.
Detect Poison and Disease: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. Meh. Might be used in uncharted wilderness or swamplands, or something, but again, your use of this is sporadic at best.
Divine Favor: 1 bonus action; V,S; Concentration. Adds 1d4 radiant damage to all your hits, which averages to 2.5. Keep in mind that a 1st-level Divine Smite adds 2d8 (average 9). Assume a 65% hit rate: 9/(.65*2.5) = 5.54, which means on average, you’ll need to attack 6 times before you’re expected to surpass the damage contribution a 1st-level Smite gives you. As you can see, that’s pretty inefficient, especially when it’s very possible at early levels that you’ll lose Concentration before you even get to 6 attacks for a fight. The only battles where this is really worth casting are against hordes of CR 1/4 or 1/2 mooks, in which case the extra 1-4 points of damage can spell the difference between living or dead enemy on a successful hit. Of course, this also becomes worthwhile when you’re stuck in an entirely ranged battle, since Divine Smite only works in melee.
Detect Evil and Good: 1 action; V,S; Concentration. No reason to ever prepare this one when you have Divine Sense.
Searing Smite: 1 bonus action; V; Concentration. This smite spell should never see the light of day in your arsenal. The effect is nothing else other than damage, it’s strictly worse at that than Thunderous Smite with a 1st-level slot, and even if you upcast it, the damage doesn’t even come close to matching a same-level Divine Smite even if the enemy fails the first save for the ongoing damage.
Devotion Oath Spells
Sanctuary: 1 bonus action; V,S,M. A terrific protection spell to always have on tap; indeed one of the best. Especially since it’s a bonus action with no concentration required. Break this out if you need to protect an ally in danger and buy them a round to heal up, or even to cast an important spell (there’s plenty that don’t involve directly affecting an enemy). Also useful if you need to shield a non-combatant from harm.
Protection from Evil and Good is already on the Paladin list. You always have it prepared, being an Oath spell, so you might be expected to pitch in on castings of this.
Ancients Oath Spells
Ensnaring Strike: 1 bonus action; V; Concentration. A solid "smite" spell when used against anything smaller than Large (and can be used at range as well!). Restraining means halted movement and, perhaps even more important, advantage on attacks against the target. Only allows a Strength save, so feel free to use this on a Roguish-type. They also take more damage round-to-round automatically while restrained and must blow their action to make a Strength check (NOT a save, so no proficiency bonus!) to escape.
Speak with Animals: 1 action; V,S. Allows you to do what its name says. When you need it, it's there.
Vengeance Oath Spells
Bane: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. Pretty much the flip-side of Bless, letting you penalize enemy attack rolls and saves by an average of 2.5. Affects up to three enemies with a first-level slot, more if you upcast. Can come in handy in fights against strong multiple foes, one of the few tools in the box for these types of fights for Vengeance Paladins.
Hunter's Mark: 1 bonus action; V; Concentration. Well, you get to steal the Ranger’s staple spell for boosting single-target DPR. But how good is it for you? Well, compared to a 1st-level Divine Smite (2d8 = 9), assuming 65% hit rate, 1d6 = 3.5 damage per hit: 9/(.65*3.5) = 3.96. So an average of attacking 4 times before you match a 1st-level Smite in damage contribution. Moreover, unlike even Divine Favor, it’s rather inefficient against hordes of mooks, since selecting a new target always takes another bonus action. On the plus side, it can last up to an hour (or 8 hours with a 3rd-level slot, or an entire day with a 5th) … but unless you can get Concentration checks into auto-save territory vs. DC 10, at least, you can’t count on maintaining it nearly that long. So, basically, it’s really not worth casting at Lv. 1-5. At Lv. 6 or higher, with Aura of Protection in play and preferably also with the feat Resilient (CON), this spell looks a lot more attractive and has a much better chance of being the efficient long-term DPR boost it’s meant to be.
Oathbreaker Spells
Hellish Rebuke: 1 reaction; V,S. A little bit of fire damage in retaliation to getting hurt out to 60 feet. Overall, typically not worth the spell slot, and depending on your DM there may be logistical concerns casting this fully armed and shielded.
Inflict Wounds: 1 action; V,S. Hot garbage. A normal attack plus just a 1st-level Divine Smite is going to do more damage every time.
Find Steed: 10 minutes; V,S. If nothing else, keep this spell prepared just because a steed will greatly cut down on your travel times. And even if you do get caught in combat, the penalty for your steed getting whacked in combat is nothing compared to what it was in editions past; it just disappears in a puff of mist, and just cast this spell again to bring it back fully healed. You really have nothing to lose from keeping this on hand and a lot to gain. If you DO plan on making your steed a main avenue of combat, then you'll want the Mounted Combatant feat, which lets you take all the hits for attacks targeted at your steed.
Magic Weapon: 1 bonus action; V,S; Concentration. Bless is still higher priority, mind, but if a Cleric has that covered this is easily a staple buff all the way up until every main weapon-user has an actual magic weapon. If you have a magic weapon but the Fighter doesn’t, for example, cast this on the Fighter’s weapon. Retire this once/if everyone does have a magic weapon.
Aid: 1 action; V,S,M. Up to three allies get 5 more maximum hit points for a full 8 hours (plus 5 more per each level you upcast). You can easily cast this at the start of every day. A solid no-concentration buff, for sure, although if a Cleric has this covered it’ll take the burden off you to prepare and cast this.
Branding Smite: 1 bonus action; V; Concentration. The most important thing to note about this Smite spell is that, unlike most other Smite spells, this one works with a ranged attack. Just for that fact alone, it’s never a bad idea to prepare this. The extra damage (2d6 radiant) does scale when upcast, too. The usefulness of the invisibility prevention effect, on the other hand, is highly situational; if you are in melee it’s usually better to just save your 2nd-level spell slot for a Divine Smite.
Lesser Restoration: 1 action; V,S. Curing disease and poison is redundant with Lay on Hands, but curing blinded and deafened is not, so it's still worth considering. If you're Devotion, it's an Oath spell, so congrats, prepare something else.
Zone of Truth: 1 action; V,S. Very useful to prepare when you’re getting ready to conduct an interrogation. If you're Devotion, congrats, you always have it on tap since it's an Oath spell.
Protection from Poison: 1 action; V,S. With Lay on Hands in play, I can't really see preparing this one too often.
Locate Object: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. If you absolutely need to find an object and time isn’t of the essence, then here you go. Definitely not worth a full-time preparation, though.
Devotion Oath Spells
Lesser Restoration and Zone of Truth are both already on the Paladin list.
Ancients Oath Spells
Moonbeam: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. 5-foot radius = 10-foot diameter, so theoretically can affect up to four creatures, and will damage two adjacent enemies at once. Making this spell at least something to use against hordes. 2D10, with CON save for half, is respectable damage for this level, and it does scale with upcasting. Moving the beam can be worth using your action if clusters of enemies form.
Misty Step: 1 bonus action; V. A bonus action teleport! Teleporting is great to have for many reasons, and you still get your move and attacks afterwards with this.
Vengeance Oath Spells
Hold Person: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. Needs no introduction. Enjoy your auto-crits and free double-powered Divine Smites on the poor humanoid sap afterwards.
Misty Step: 1 bonus action; V. Again, bonus action teleporting. Enough said.
Oathbreaker Spells
Darkness: 1 action; V,M; Concentration. Usefulness depends on if you have darkvision somehow (race, spell, item); if you do this can actually be pretty useful. If you don’t, you probably don’t want to cast this.
Crown of Madness: 1 action; V,S; Concentration. The effect sounds neat at first, until you realize that the enemy can only make the attack you coerce out of it before it moves, requiring some serendipitous positioning round to round. Add the fact you have to spend your actions to maintain this, PLUS your concentration, PLUS the fact the enemy can save against this after every one of its turns anyway, and this spell is a fail.
Aura of Vitality: 1 action; V; Concentration. Throws out a total of 20d6 healing (avg. 70) for its duration partitioned among whomever needs it the most. One of the best healing spells from 1st-5th level in the whole game, and not even the Cleric gets it. Consider this your staple heal to cast out of combat and keep prepared at all times.
Revivify: 1 action; V,S,M*. Bring someone back to life if they just got killed within the last minute. Keep prepared at all times, even if there is a Cleric around but especially if there’s not.
Blinding Smite: 1 bonus action; V; Concentration. 3d8 extra radiant damage on the next hit + blind on a failed CON save. The damage is solid (but not scalable on upcasting), and blinding means advantage for you and disadvantage for them. This one can be a gamechanger against strong enemies reliant on physical attacks — just as long as they don’t have blindsight, truesight or tremorsense.
Crusader's Mantle: 1 action; V; Concentration. This is a solid party-wide damage buff, but with some caveats. First, Bless is still higher priority, so make sure your party has that covered first before you cast this. Second, since this takes an action to cast, you ALWAYS want to cast this BEFORE the start of a combat, NOT in the first round, otherwise you’ll lose too much damage from simply not attacking when you could’ve (it lasts a full minute, or 10 rounds, which is a lot more than most combats take, so don't worry about wasting it). So assuming you’re casting this the right way, break down the math vs. a 3rd-level Smite (4d8 = avg. 18). Assuming the usual 65% chance to hit in melee, 18/(.65*2.5) = 11.08, so 12 attacks from the party to surpass the damage contribution from a 3rd-level Smite. A Fighter with Action Surge, over 3 rounds, will make 8 attacks at Lv. 9-10, and 12 attacks at Lv. 11+. Any other character with Extra Attack will make 6 attacks over the same 3 rounds. So that indicates that, for this spell to be worth a pre-battle cast, you want at least one Fighter in the party, and preferably also a third ally with Extra Attack besides you. If, in addition to that, you happen to have an ally with Conjure spells or a Necromancer’s army, or if you’re commanding an actual army, then this gets much better still.
Elemental Weapon: 1 action; V,S; Concentration. Like Magic Weapon before it, this is one you’d like to keep prepared up until the point every main weapon user has a magic weapon (retire this then). Along with the bonus to hit, this one also adds d4s to the damage, making it a step above Magic Weapon. It’s also very versatile with the damage types; choose the right one if you know what you’re about to be facing. A very good buff spell, to be sure, but the competition is just really stiff at this spell level.
Create Food and Water: 1 action; V,S. A good spell to prepare during very long expeditions.
Daylight: 1 action; V,S. A source of bright light can be good sometimes. There’s just too many other good spells at this level, though.
Dispel Magic: 1 action; V,S. It’s definitely good for the times you come upon magic that needs dispelling, or especially in fights against spellcasters. How often those come up is the question, though. Have someone buff your Charisma ability checks (e.g. someone with a Guidance or Enhance Ability spell) and you stand a decent shot at dispelling even high-level magic. If you're Devotion, congrats, you have this always on tap, so prepare something else.
Magic Circle: 1 minute; V,S,M*. Eh, if your party really needs to cast this spell, it's probably something best left to the Cleric or Wizard to do it. And even then the benefits aren't particularly great for the minute-long casting time and material cost.
Remove Curse: 1 action; V,S. Might need preparation every once in a while, but day-to-day this should generally be on the backburner.
Devotion Oath Spells
Dispel Magic is already on the Paladin spell list. So you get to always be prepared for fights against spellcasters, which is very nice.
Beacon of Hope: 1 action; V,S; Concentration. Advantage on WIS saves and death throws plus maximized healing rolls all out to 30 feet. Pretty solid defensive buff always on tap, but how often are you really going to concentrate on this one as opposed to Bless, Crusader’s Mantle, or a smite spell? Probably not very.
Ancients Oath Spells
Plant Growth: 1 action/8 hours; V,S. The 1-action version is good for hindering approaching enemies, and the 8-hour version is neat for gardening purposes.
Protection from Energy: 1 action; V,S; Concentration. A strong protection spell if you anticipate either combat against a certain type of enemy (e.g. some sort of elemental or dragon) or an area with elemental hazards around.
Vengeance Oath Spells
Haste: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. If you can get Concentration checks into auto-save territory (take Resilient (CON) for that), this is as good as a Lv. 1-5 personal combat buff gets. Cast before you anticipate combat; it lasts 10 rounds, so don’t worry about “wasting” the first couple rounds of duration. The extra attack from this is obviously great, and against a Vow target can result in some of the gaudiest DPR numbers, not to mention giving you another chance to Divine Smite. The double speed can even let you melee attack an enemy you couldn’t reach otherwise that round. And the advantage on DEX saves and +2 to AC can’t be ignored, either. (If you didn’t take Resilient (CON) then this spell is much less attractive, and can become a double-edged sword).
Protection from Energy: 1 action; V,S; Concentration. Considering all your combat buffs that require Concentration, you're more likely to use this one for exploring a hazardous area. Good for that purpose.
Oathbreaker Spells
Animate Dead: 1 minute; V,S,M. Having an undead army is fun. Especially when they benefit from your Aura of Hate bonus.
Bestow Curse: 1 action; V,S; Concentration (no Concentration if upcast with 5th-level slot). Pretty nice choice of effects, one of which you can inflict on an enemy in melee touch range, including one that can even make your Control Undead feature easier to use.
Banishment: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. Remove a strong enemy in a group from play, making the rest of the fight easier, or if it's a single boss, have the party prepare readied actions for when it reappears for a nice full-scale assault. Great either way. And if it's a creature non-native to the plane, even better, as you get rid of them permanently, if that's what you wanted. If you're Vengeance, this is an Oath spell, so prepare something else.
Death Ward: 1 action; V,S. Can be quite literally a lifesaver. Protects someone against KO and instant death effects. It doesn’t require concentration, either, making this one of the better defensive buffs on the whole.
Aura of Life: 1 action; V; Concentration. I’m generally not the biggest fan of defensive concentration buffs, but this one is at least undeniably effective against enemies that can drain your hit point maximum, such as vampires. Also like Death Ward it protects against KO but for all allies in aura range.
Aura of Purity: 1 action; V; Concentration. Grants you and allies immunity to disease, resistance to poison damage and advantage on saves against most of the conditions you'll face. Again, not the biggest fan of defensive concentration buffs, but I can certainly imagine fights where this might be useful.
Staggering Smite: 1 bonus action; V; Concentration. The damage and effects aren’t bad — 4d6 extra psychic and on a failed WIS save the enemy can’t take reactions and has disadvantage on attacks and skill checks. These specific effects take place even if an enemy is specifically immune to, say, blind or fear. BUT the one big problem keeping this spell from greatness is the duration of the effects — it only lasts until the end of the enemy’s next turn FLAT. True, your party can still do a lot of damage during that time (IF the initiative order cooperates), but that’s a bit underwhelming for a 4th-level smite spell, don’t you think? It doesn’t hurt to prepare this one in case you run into enemies immune to blind or fear, but if those immunities aren’t a factor, Blinding Smite and Wrathful Smite are just better.
Locate Creature: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. Prepare it when you need it. Definitely don’t prepare it full-time.
Devotion Oath Spells
Freedom of Movement: 1 action; V,S,M. Easily one of the high points of the Devotion list. Ignoring difficult terrain is good, immunity to restrained is great, automatic escapes from grapples is excellent, and immunity to paralyzed is a damn lifesaver. A very strong defensive spell, especially since it doesn't even require Concentration.
Guardian of Faith: 1 action; V. Gives you a chance at inflicting a little auto-damage, up to 60 points' worth. Pretty decent, particularly against multiple enemies.
Ancients Oath Spells
Ice Storm: 1 action; V,S,M. Hooray, a direct damage spell you can use to fight hordes and multiple enemies! Definitely an answer to the Paladin's overall weakness in those types of fights, and a pretty good one at that.
Stoneskin: 1 action; V,S,M*; Concentration. An old classic, and resistance to any nonmagical damage involving the usual weapon types is nice indeed. Cost is 100 gp per cast, not insignificant, but not a complete drain, either, if used judiciously.
Vengeance Oath Spells
Banishment is already on the Paladin list.
Dimension Door: 1 action; V. Teleport up to 500 feet, for the win. You can bring one ally with you, too.
Oathbreaker Spells
Confusion: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. A solid control effect against multiple enemies that has an 80 percent chance round to round of making the enemy a nonfactor against you.
Blight: 1 action; V,S. Your normal attack routine plus one 4th-level Divine Smite will outdamage this spell by a mile, even against plant creatures and magical plants.
Destructive Wave: 1 action; V. This is THE horde-clearing spell for the Paladin class in general. Too bad it comes really late in their career, but better late than never. The damage is equivalent to a Fireball cast at 5th-level, it's friendly (i.e. you can exclude your allies from the burst), and the area of effect is enormous, being a 30-foot radius from you. And it's only a Verbal component, so you can bust this out fully armed and shielded, even. Strongly suggested that you keep this one prepared at all times, just in case.
Banishing Smite: 1 bonus action; V; Concentration. Gets its mark for the extra damage it does alone; 5d10 is no joke, force is almost never resisted, and combined with a 4th-level Divine Smite results in a lovely damage spike against a boss (and if you crit, whoa). However, the banishment effect isn't really something you want to rely on or actively aim for, as it only goes into effect when you knock the enemy to less than 50 hit points with the hit. By then, it's about to die. If you DO happen to get that banishing effect, have everyone ready actions for when the enemy reappears and give it a swift end. NOTE: This Smite spell actually works with a ranged attack, too, so huzzah for that.
Circle of Power: 1 action; V; Concentration. Grants what basically amounts to spell resistance for you and all allies within 30 feet: Advantage on saves vs. spells and magic effects. An added bonus is an Evasion-like effect except for all saves. A powerful defensive spell, to be sure, but again, it’s concentration so it competes with your staple offensive buffs and smites. If you’re fortunate enough to wield a Holy Avenger, you already get the most meaningful part of this spell as a constant effect (and the same range, even, being Lv. 17+).
Geas: 1 minute; V. Can definitely be useful if you need to compel some low-level NPC into doing your will.
Dispel Evil and Good: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. Basically a Protection from Evil and Good spell combined with either a very limited Banishment option or dispel of charm and fear and a possible exorcism. Considering its competition at this level, hard to recommend a full-time preparation. One better left to the Cleric if it must be cast.
Raise Dead: 1 hour; V,S,M*. The 10-day limit on this spell is, in most cases, liberal enough that you’ll only prepare this on a need basis. Revivify is typically enough.
Devotion Oath Spells
Commune: 1 minute; V,S,M. Asking a god for answers can come in pretty handy.
Flame Strike: 1 action; V,S,M. Actually not that impressive in your case. This competes directly with Destructive Wave, which both does more damage and has a much larger area of effect, plus doesn't require somatic and material components unlike this one. It does have distance going for it, but even then it's only 60 feet, so I honestly can't think of many cases where casting this is preferable to Destructive Wave.
Ancients Oath Spells
Commune with Nature: 1 minute; V,S. Solid exploration spell with a nice distance and some good knowledge gained.
Tree Stride: 1 action; V,S; Concentration. Teleport between trees. That's handy at times.
Vengeance Oath Spells
Hold Monster: 1 action; V,S,M; Concentration. Again, needs no introduction. Enjoy your auto-crits and double-powered Divine Smites.
Scrying: 10 minutes; V,S,M*; Concentration. Spy on your quarry, even more effectively if you know them well or have a possession of theirs. Good for scouting.
Oathbreaker Spells
Contagion: 1 action; V,S. The effects of the disease have been clarified (by Jeremy Crawford here) to not kick in until 3 failed saves. Which is a good thing for the game, because it’d be hilariously broken otherwise. But in a pure combat situation, its utility is very limited. The only time you’d want to cast it in combat is if you’re facing a likely recurring adversary who likes to escape at the first sign of defeat; make them roll saving throws (or burn Legendary Resistances) as a parting gift.
Dominate Person: 1 action; V,S; Concentration. Mind-controlling humanoids is fun, and useful.
VII. Equipment
The basics (STR-based):
- Heavy armor (starting with chain at Lv. 1 typically, moving to plate as soon as can afford)
- Shield (if going one-handed + shield)
- Longsword, battleaxe or warhammer (if going one-handed + shield); glaive or halberd (if going Polearm Master); greatsword or maul (if going two-handed but not Polearm Master); 2 shortswords, scimitars or handaxes (if dual-wielding)
- Javelins OR longbow
- Holy symbol, for material component casting needs (on shield if using one; as an amulet if not)
The basics (DEX-based):
- Studded leather armor
- Shield (if going one-handed + shield)
- Rapier (if going one-handed + shield); 2 shortswords or scimitars (if dual-wielding)
- Longbow
- Holy symbol (on shield if using one; as an amulet if not)
Noteworthy magic items
Remember that a character can only be attuned to three magic items at one time. If an item requires attunement, it will be noted, along with other important properties like rarity and types of armor/weapon.
Weapon +1/+2/+3: Uncommon/rare/very rare. In practice, the humble basic magic weapon will be your best option in a lot of cases. A weapon that gives a bonus to hit and damage will do more for your DPR figures than most other fancier magic weapons that do not have such bonuses (especially the hit bonus). That it doesn’t require attunement is an added plus.
Sunblade: Rare; Longsword; Attunement. It’s literally a lightsaber! It’s nominally a longsword, but it’s finesse, making it fair game for a DEX-attacker to use. +2 to hit and damage, plus 1d8 extra damage vs. undead.
Holy Avenger: Legendary; Any Sword; Attunement. Typically considered the Paladin class’ ultimate weapon, and it’s certainly worthy of that designation this go-around. +3 attack and damage, MASSIVE extra radiant damage against fiends and undead (+2d10), and the most meaningful benefit of the strong Circle of Power spell (the advantage on saves vs. spells and magic effects) as a constant effect for you and all allies in aura range. And the fact it can be ANY sword means that nearly all builds of the class can get theirs (rapier for DEX, greatsword for two-handers, longsword for most others). Only Polearm Masters seem to get left out (unless your DM counts the glaive as a sword?).
VIII. Multiclassing
Basics to remember:
- You need to meet the attribute prerequisites of ALL your planned classes, including your initial class. So, to multiclass as a Paladin, you’ll always need at least STR 13 and CHA 13, in addition to the prerequisite of any other classes you want. Making it a little more difficult for Paladins to multiclass and limiting their class options.
- Multiple instances of Extra Attack do not stack. Want three attacks? Take 11 Fighter levels. It’s the only way.
- You do NOT get proficiency in heavy armor if you start as another class and multiclass into Paladin.
- Ability Score Increases, and by extension feats, are considered class features at set levels like everything else. Which means in many cases, you may fall short of the five expected of most single-class characters’ progression. Sometimes being an ASI/feat short may be worth it, but more often it may not be. Being two or more ASI/feats short is almost never worth it. Consider the tradeoffs carefully, in any event.
- You NEVER get the saving throw proficiencies of your new class. If you want another class’ save proficiencies to start, then you need to start as a member of that class.
Strive for 5:
A general look at all the classes will show you that the class’ 5th level is where a MASSIVE power jump occurs, particularly offensively. Warrior-type classes get their Extra Attack at that level. Full spellcaster classes get 3rd-level spells, the first real powerful level of spells. For Rogues, that’s when Sneak Attack really starts taking off. While all classes have their other major and significant levels, Lv. 5 is the first and most important of them all.
Ergo, if you’re going for a multiclass build of any sort, your first goal is to hit Lv. 5 in one class ASAP, likely your major. Pretty much without exception. Which means if you’re starting and majoring as a Paladin, you want to be a Paladin 5 and get Extra Attack before you even think of branching out.
If you started as Lv. 1 in another class (which does have its merits for some builds, notably Fighter and Rogue dips), then you need to take your next 5 levels in the Paladin class. Getting to Lv. 5 one level behind is probably tolerable, at worst you limit yourself to just one level of inadequacy. Falling two or more levels behind in that department, on the other hand, is a terrible idea.
Example of above: If dipping Fighter, starting as a Fighter gets automatic CON save proficiency without giving up anything else. That’s great! But your next 5 levels should be all Paladin. You’ll get Extra Attack at character Lv. 6, then, which is a level late, but probably tolerable for most. As tempting as Action Surge looks at Fighter 2, hold off on it until you took your 5 vital Paladin levels. (After all, Action Surge works much better with Extra Attack in play, anyway.)
What you give up:
When planning a multiclass build for the long term, all the way to Lv. 20, it’s important to look at your primary class’ last few features, counting backwards from Lv. 20, and compare them to the levels from your secondary class(es)’ to see if it’s a build worth pursuing.
- Lv. 20 Paladin for Lv. 1 dip: You give up your Oath-based capstone power (and less significantly one spell preparation). Typically, the Oath capstone is fairly strong, but usually not a gamebreaker, so there are several cases in which a Lv. 1 dip of a class might be a fair trade for giving that up.
- Lv. 19 Paladin for Lv. 2 dip: You give up your last ASI or feat and one 5th-level spell slot (if you don’t multiclass with another caster). That is pretty significant. You want to make sure that what you gain at Lv. 2 (or Lv. 3 if you’re going further in your dip) is worth this sacrifice. Fighter’s Action Surge? Yeah, I’d say that’s worth it. The Sorcerer’s Lv. 2? Not worth it unless you’re going for the real prize at Lv. 3. The Monk’s Lv. 2? Not worth it at all.
- Lv. 18 Paladin for Lv. 3 dip: You give up your Auras’ expansions from 10 feet to 30 feet. That’s a pretty strong ability from a tactical standpoint, so you want to make sure that your dip’s Lv. 3 is at least competitive with that, or otherwise results in a strong central build concept.
- Lv. 17 Paladin for Lv. 4 dip: Well, if you want to get back to your maximum number of ASIs/feats, here you go. Unfortunately, the price you pay for that is 5th-level Paladin spells, a few of which are pretty strong. It’s up to you to decide whether such a trade is worth it.
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Lv. 16 Paladin for Lv. 5 dip: You give up another ASI/feat, knocking you back to one less than the maximum. This is not a level you want to give up lightly. Remember that Extra Attack from another class does not stack. And while a full caster’s 3rd-level spell list might look good, it’s probably not enough to consider taking Lv. 5 in that class unless you’re going for something else a few more levels into that class. Thus, if you’re going to stop at a Lv. 5 dip, that class needs to have a particularly appealing feature beyond a new spell level or Extra Attack (ex: Bard’s Font of Inspiration); otherwise, don’t bother.
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Lv. 15 Paladin for Lv. 6 dip: You give up a 4th-level spell slot (if you don’t multiclass with another caster), which can hurt. You also give up your Oath’s Lv. 15 feature. For Devotion and Ancients Paladins, that’s solid but not a total gamechanger. For Vengeance, it’s pretty significant. For Oathbreakers, it’s very significant. In any case, you’ll want to make sure that Lv. 6 feature you’re chasing is worth the trade, or any levels beyond that are worth pursuing.
- Lv. 14 Paladin for Lv. 7 dip: You give up Cleansing Touch. Not a hard sacrifice if you find the other class’ Lv. 7 gains attractive. (Warlock 7 is particularly appealing.)
Potential Multiclass options:
Bard: Perfectly compatible stats qualifying-wise and spellcasting-wise (CHA 13). You get an extra skill of your choice when entering this, too, along with some extra spellcasting and leader-type stuff.
- Lv. 1: A couple cantrips and four Bard spells known, which you can go nuts with since they use CHA just like you, and CHA-mod uses of Bardic Inspiration per day. A good dip level.
- Lv. 2: Jack of All Trades is a nice boost to your non-proficient skills (and initiative!), and Song of Rest is pretty good. You also end up one spellcaster “level” ahead of a straight Paladin of the same level.
- Lv. 3: Expertise in two skills plus Bard College. Typically you go Lore for Cutting Words, which works well if you’re playing a Defender role to penalize an enemy’s attack roll as a reaction with your Inspiration dice. Very robust level.
- Lv. 5: Your Inspiration uses all become short-rest recharge. Particularly nice if you have Cutting Words, although at this point you gave up 5th-level Paladin spells.
Cleric: Appropriate thematically, so it may be a bit surprising that it doesn't rank as highly as some other options. But that said, it can be viable. Just mind the fact you need a WIS 13, so you'll be a bit more MAD than usual. And you'll want to pick a Domain with as few WIS-reliant features and spells as possible. The prize most Paladins will go for is at Lv. 6, with the Channel Divinity 2 times per short rest.
- Lv. 1: Cantrips and your first Domain feature and pair of Domain spells. Life, in particular, is a really good Domain for a Paladin dipping Cleric levels to take, since none of its features or Channel Divinity options are WIS-dependent, and only one of its Domain spells has an attack roll or DC related to WIS. The Lv. 1 feature of Life powers up all healing spells, and not just Cleric ones, either. Heck, you even get Bless always on tap; how good is that!?
- Lv. 6: Channel Divinity twice per short rest. The main reason a Paladin will “dip” Cleric levels. You also get another Domain feature, and Life’s, again, is pretty decent.
Fighter: If you plan a multi here, it’s pretty much strictly better to start as a Fighter. You give up no armor proficiencies by doing so, and you’d get Constitution as a save proficiency, the best “common” save to get. (That said, it wouldn’t hurt to take Resilient (WIS) later, anyway.) Easy as cake to enter with STR 13 prerequisite.
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Lv. 1: A Fighting Style (Defense actually is a good pick if you’re going to get two styles), and Second Wind. Pretty decent, if all you wanted was to start as a Fighter for the CON proficiency.
- Lv. 2: Action Surge, the premier nova ability. An extra action means double the number of attacks you can add Smites to, if there’s ever a fight where you just need to go ham.
- Lv. 3: Your Fighter Archetype, and all three choices here have something to offer. Battle Master is the most consistently effective with the healthy short rest-recharge arsenal you gain (4 d8 Superiority Dice, 3 maneuvers). Champion has its points with its doubled crit range, which means a better chance of adding doubled Smite damage. Eldritch Knight is pretty pointless if a 3- or 4-level dip is all you want, but if you’re going further than that, it looks a lot more attractive thanks to the spell slot gain beyond your Paladin levels.
- Lv. 11: 3 attacks per Attack action. With 9 Paladin levels, you still have 3rd-level spells, Aura of Protection, and the particularly strong Lv. 7 Oath feature. If you went Eldritch Knight, you’ll still have a fair number of spell slots to play with.
Rogue: A little MAD, seeing as you still need to have STR and CHA at 13 while going for that score in DEX, too. But for a DEX-based Paladin of Vengeance somehow trained in Stealth (via race or background), in particular, this can be quite an effective option. The first two levels contain the goodness of Expertise and Cunning Action (plus a Sneak Attack die or two), and then the big prize of Assassinate at Lv. 3. There’s points to starting as either Paladin or Rogue here, so you could go either way. If you start as a Paladin you get WIS save proficiency, which is better than DEX since WIS deals with nastier conditions on the whole. On the other hand, starting as a Rogue gets you a net gain of one full skill proficiency and Thieves’ Tools proficiency as well.
- Lv. 3: Assassin for Assassinate. This is why you want to be trained (and preferably even Expertised) in Stealth somehow, so you have a better chance to set up those surprise round auto-crits! And you can imagine how lovely those are going to get with a charged-up smite spell, Divine Smite and Extra Attack.
Sorcerer: Compatible qualifying and casting stat with CHA, so a very attractive option. The big draw is Font of Magic and Metamagic, which can either get you some extra spell slots or enhance your spellcasting economy when you need it most. If you're going DEX-based Paladin, definitely start Lv. 1 as a Sorcerer, since you'll get Constitution save proficiency that way and the loss of heavy armor isn't an issue in that case. For a STR-based build, the Lv. 1 choice might be more difficult.
- Lv. 1: Favored Soul (UA: Class Design Variants) is overall the clear winner here, especially for a dip, with the free Cleric domain spells you get at just this level (and 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th if you go that far). And unlike with a Cleric MC, those spells will be Charisma-based! Draconic Bloodline can be good for DEX-Paladins with that free natural armor amounting to 1 AC better than studded leather, and looks more attractive if you’re going to take 6 or more Sorcerer levels. (Don’t take Wild Magic; it has nothing to offer you.)
- Lv. 3: The big prize of two Metamagic options. You’ll want Quickened Spell for sure, since turning a 1 action buffing spell into a bonus action is huge in the right battle. For your second choice, I can see either going for Heightened Spell (a particularly nice one for smite spells with an effect that requires a save) or Twinned Spell (whenever you need to tag two creatures with a single-target spell).
- Lv. 6: A worthy level for Draconic Bloodline. Elemental Affinity goes very well with Elemental Weapon (extra CHA modifier to damage) and perhaps some of your smite spells. Or spend a sorcery point for resistance to your chosen damage type. For Favored Souls with more than 5 Paladin levels this is obviously a wasted level, since two instances of Extra Attack do not stack.
- Lv. 9: 5th-level Sorcerer spells. Still allows room for the Paladin’s Improved Divine Smite.
Warlock: Compatible qualifying and casting stat with CHA, making for an especially attractive dipping option. You can even use the short-rest recharge spell slots to power your Divine Smite, letting you Smite a lot more often, potentially (even if not for quite as much damage). NOTE: The “paladin spell slot” part of Divine Smite was confirmed to be a misprint soon after the PHB release, and was reflected as such in the June 2015 errata.
- Lv. 1: A first-level Patron feature (Dark One’s Blessing and Fey Presence are both pretty good), a couple of cantrips (ahem, Eldritch Blast) you can go nuts with since it uses CHA just like your own spells, and one recharging spell slot all make for a terrific one-level dip.
- Lv. 2: Your first pair of invocations. If you took Eldritch Blast, definitely take Agonizing Blast as one of them. Devil’s Sight is another good one. You also get your second Warlock spell slot for more short-rest recharge Smiting.
- Lv. 3: Your Pact Boon. Tome is the most effective, overall, getting you three cantrips from any spell list (even opening up the possibility of CHA-based attacks if you take Shillelagh). Your spell slots also become 2nd-level, making your rechargeable Smites stronger.
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Lv. 7: 4th-level Warlock spell slots, putting your rechargeable Smites at maximum power. Still allows room for 4th-level Paladin spells at the end.
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Lv. 9: 5th-level Warlock spells and slots. Still allows room for Improved Divine Smite.
Wizard: Requires heavy investment in what is typically the Paladin’s dump stat to enter (INT 13). There is one big draw that might make the extra MAD worthwhile, especially if you plan to break your Oath.
- Lv. 6: School of Necromancy for Undead Thralls. The big prize for Oathbreakers, with the beefy extra hit points and damage on all undead you create. Combined with Aura of Hate, your undead army will be especially nasty.
IX. FAQ
Filling in as needed
X. Builds and Combos
Race: Human (Variant)
Background: Knight
Alignment: LG
Proficient skills: Persuasion (CHA), History (INT), Perception (WIS), Athletics (STR), Insight (WIS)
Proficient tools: Gaming set (one type)
Armor: Chain mail (Lv. 1) -> Plate (as soon as can afford it), Shield
Weapon: Longsword
Other: Holy Symbol (Emblem, on Shield)
Point buy array: 15, 15, 13, 10, 10, 8
Attributes and feats:
Lv. 1: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, Shield Master
Lv. 4: STR 18, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, Shield Master
Lv. 8: STR 20, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, Shield Master
Lv. 12: STR 20, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, Shield Master, Resilient (CON)
Lv. 16: STR 20, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 18, Shield Master, Resilient (CON)
Lv. 19: STR 20, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 20, Shield Master, Resilient (CON)
Fighting Style (Lv. 2): Dueling
Most oft-prepared spells (total 15 + Oath spells at Lv. 20):
1st level: Bless, Command, Wrathful Smite. Oath: Protection from Evil and Good, Sanctuary
2nd level: Find Steed, Magic Weapon. Oath: Lesser Restoration, Zone of Truth
3rd level: Aura of Vitality, Blinding Smite, Crusader’s Mantle, Elemental Weapon, Revivify. Oath: Beacon of Hope, Dispel Magic
4th level: Banishment, Death Ward. Oath: Freedom of Movement, Guardian of Faith
5th level: Banishing Smite, Circle of Power, Destructive Wave. Oath: Commune, Flame Strike
Reserved 15. That should be enough. Go ahead and post if you want.
EDIT: Umm, OK, how the heck do you add colors to text? I've tried HTML, BBCode, everything, and it's not doing it.
Looking forward to the rest of the guide! One tiny peccadillo: in the sentence, "That also means that any justifications the player makes for his actions to the DM are compared to actual concrete tenants...", I'm pretty sure you meant to say "tenets" and not "tenants". My anal retentive eye has a tendency to zero in on stuff like that.
To add color, you can surround the text that you want to change the color for with, for instance, a [color=#f80]ORANGE[/color] tag.
See the BBCode guide at http://community.wizards.com/filter/tips .
You may want to take a look at Heavy Armor Mastery for the Paladin since it provides DR and also gives +1 strength. Probably not as universally good as the feats you've listed for the lifetime of a Paladin Character, but well worth taking for a level 1 human varient Paladin.
-Polaris
Ah, forgot about that one. Added it.
Whew, finally got everything colored.
Great guide! I find it odd that you don't even mention War Caster, however, particularly for sword-and-board paladins. I don't think there's any universal consensus that a paladin can execute somatic spell components if they have a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, even if their holy symbol happens to be emblazoned on their shield. In games where the DM rules against this, War Caster is a pretty important feat, even if you set aside the advantage that it grants on Concentration checks.
Leugren wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Leugren wrote:
ppaladin123 wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Leugren wrote:
So I noticed that the stat suggestion lists Str or Dex as equally valid options, yet the Feat suggestions are weighted towards Strength.
HeirRaktus wrote:
Re: War Caster.
Yes, I did leave that off on-purpose. Polaris did a pretty good job of explaining why I would. Even if a DM is really strict about the somatic components free hand requirement, and you're using a shield, most of your somatic spells are the type that you want to cast to start combat. In which case you may have your weapon sheathed at the start, using your weapon hand for the somatic component. If the spell was a bonus action, you can still draw your weapon as your one interact for the round and make your Attack action anyway. And if the spell was an action, then it didn't matter if you drew your weapon or not; in fact, you could've sheathed it before casting without an issue next round.
As for the Concentration save, given a choice vs. Resilient (CON), well, it isn't a choice. It's Resilient all the way. Just for the sake of it, let's take a non-Variant Human, to apply it to more examples, so they'd take Resilient at Lv. 12. At that level, let's say they have a 14 CON (+2), 16 CHA (+3) and then the proficiency bonus from their new feat (+4). That's a +9, which is already good for autopassing every single DC10 Concentration save. And again, that's only at Lv. 12.
And also keep in mind, at least judging from the enemies we've seen so far, that you don't start regularly running into enemies that consistently deal more than the 20 damage needed for a higher DC until some of the CR 20+ bosses. There are some really strong abilities untill then like Dragon's Breath, but the damage from that results in a save that nobody's ever going to make anyway, so that's irrelevant. But the CR 20+ bosses will start dealing hits generally up to 35 damage (if even that), so a DC 17. But at Lv. 20 your CON save will be roughly +2 (CON 14) +5 (CHA 20) +6 (proficiency), autosaving on a DC 14, and still having a very good chance to make the save vs. DC 17.
Resilient, especially combined with Aura of Protection, really does a lot for Concentration saves, to the point where you really wouldn't miss War Caster. And as Resilient helps ALL CON saves, and CON-targeting abilities tend to be frequent and nasty, again, the choice between Resilient and War Caster is pretty clear. And if taking a second or third feat, again, War Caster vs. something like Sentinel or Great Weapon Master or Polearm Master ... or heck, even Heavy Armor Master or Mounted Combatant, again, no contest.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Polaris wrote:
I am playing in the adventurer's league with a drow oath of the ancients paladin and I have been considering a shillelagh build.
Grabbing that cantrip allows a paladin to concentrate exclusively on CHA and not bother at all with dex or str, therefore opening up 2 or 3 feats.
However, there is only one way I found right now to open up that option, since magic Initiate will keep your shilleagh tied to Wis (obvious no-no). The right way is: 3 levels of Pact of the Book Warlock.
Around level 15 (depending on how you decide to advance) if you pick up polearm master you can end up with 3 attacks, each dealing 2d8(improved smite)+cha+2(duelist) while still holding a shield. Also you get an attack onanybody entering your reach and your spell DC is maxed thanks to high charisma.
You lose the capstone ability and the aura improvement (ouch) and have to decide between 5th level paladin spells or one extra feat/bump (by going warlock 4). BUT... you get a great pact boon (fiend provides a stream of temp hit points, Archfey gives a much needed crowd control), two invocations and two charisma spell slots you could use on Hex, Arms of Hadar, Armor of Agathys or others.
Personally I am picking devil's sight to be able to see through my drow's darkness spell, negating sunlight sensitivity and giving myself advantage and everybody else disadvantage. If my DM allows me to ride that Giant Spider, my mount will also benefit from darkness thanks to blindsight.
What do people think of a shillelagh build? It only comes into play at higher levels, but maybe a human could get there quicker, snagging polarm master earlier?
Litania84it wrote:
Litania84it wrote:
pupoochi wrote:
the earliest it kicks in at is 8th level.
5 paladin, 3 warlock. Use that one feat for polearm master, or for a cha bump if you're a human. I still think I would want to get to level seven paladin for the auras first.
mellored wrote:
Litania84it wrote:
So from a power point of view, how does a Dex-based Paladin stack up against a Strength one? The only real benefit seems to be higher initiative. Only at the lowest of levels does the cost of the armor really come into play, and the Dexadin will find themselves with a lower AC rather quickly. Stealth is nice I guess, and I could see a 3 level dip into Rogue for Assassinate do absolute wonders with Smite-empowered attacks (If you can make that kindo f tactic work in your game), but overall from both an offensive as defensive perspective, Dex seems inferior to Str...
Which is a shame, and probably won't stop me making a Fire Emblem Lord inspired Dexadin :D
Seraphex wrote:
ppaladin123 wrote:
Honestly, if you're going sword-and-board + Dueling, you can make the case that DEX is almost strictly superior for that particular build. The rapier does the same damage as the longsword and the warhammer, and with the damage being equal, the overall benefits of a high DEX outweigh those of a high STR pretty convincingly.
However rapier does piercing damage, which is weaker than other damage types, more resistant creatures like skeletons. While with Str weapons you have access to all 3 physical damage types. Also you can handle a lance if you are going to fight mounted.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Don't forget that Dex also allows for bows.
Sure, Str can throw things, and you can only use use most (all?) smites in melee, but it's still nice to have the range now and then.
Thanks for the Paladin Guide! - glad to see them emerging.
in regards to weapon choice and Str/Dex - I favor having a weapon of each major type (Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing) because I expect to find monsters with resistance or vulnerability to them, like the Skeleton.
I'm currently favoring Str with some javelins to handle some ranged options.
Botanicus wrote:
Well, this is interesting. The designers apparently weighed in on certain rulings at the latest Gen Con DM's meeting, and one of them was the matter of casting with a holy symbol-ed shield and weapon:
A divine focus can be emblazoned on a cleric’s shield, enabling the cleric to wield a weapon in the other hand and still cast spells. A wizard can hold an arcane focus in one hand and a weapon in another and still cast spells. A druid must hold mistletoe as an arcane focus, so druids must either stash their shield or their weapon to cast.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Polaris wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Well, I like the concept of binding and gagging a spellcaster to prevent them from casting spells in captivity.
I don't mind that components exist. Just that some of the rules concerning them are messier than they should be. For somatic, I think it'd suffice to require just having free movement of at least one arm, which would still allow binding to prevent captive spellcasters from casting but wouldn't be needlessly restrictive otherwise.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Clerics and Paladins with a "strict" interpretation are quite able to cast many spells while fighting or "bashing people on the head." They can't necessarily do every conceivable form of it that they want, but the vast majority of the time, there is little or no penalty to do so.
I get a little weary of re-typing this every time this issue is brought up, but, even with a strict interpretation, a cleric or paladin with a mace and shield can cast any spell they want; all they have to do is sheathe their weapon before casting the spell, then draw it again the next time they want to attack. This is the same as the way that a ranger or fighter than wants to make a ranged/melee attack with a melee/ranged weapon drawn has to switch weapons.
As most characters are not able to attack and cast a spell in the same turn, this rarely presents as a problem. Most of the spells that a paladin or cleric would conceivably cast while attacking in the same turn have no S components and nearly as many have no M components. So yes, if the cleric wants to attack and cast healing word on the same turn, there is no problem. Also, if a paladin wants to use an aura spell or smite spell, those are also completely S and M component free. I would argue that especially in this case this serves no purpose related to being bound, as what weapon would the paladin be smiting with if he were bound?
Arguing that having strict somatic rules in place is akin to arguing that having to draw or sheathe a sword to attack with a bow is detracting from a fighter's ability to ranged and melee fight. Continuing that example, 3.5 "Quick Draw" would be a "feat tax imposed by DMs, because every fighter should be able to go from fighting with a sword to fighting with a bow at any time."
So yeah, in my games, if a paladin or cleric doesn't want to be a "War Caster," they can still spot heal and smite and produce auras at full speed while Attacking or Extra Attacking or Opportunity Attacking. If they want to raise the dead, drop a flamestrike, or conjure allies, they need to put their weapon away for 1 turn. The next turn, if they want to continue fighting, they can go draw their weapon and go right back to it.
This whole issue existed in 3.0/3.5 as well - how is that 3.5 cleric or paladin going to touch you for his cure light wounds spell to work if he's holding a mace and a shield?
From a "this is how it should be because it used to be this way" point of view, remember when spells had casting time segments? Remember before there were opportunity attacks, which realistically are 90% of this whole debate? Why would it matter if a cleric ended his initiative count with a weapon drawn or not in AD&D? It's not like he's going to use it until his next count.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Yup, they can use the same hand. And in the Paladin/Cleric's case. their holy symbol-ed shield is their material component and somatic component on the same hand.
That's one way to interpret the RAW, especially when it's a special case that complicates matters and puts two elements of the rules against each other. And in such special cases, I'll side with the developers and against the needless screwing/making things confusing for the players.
Question about fighting styles...
Why is +2 damage so much better than +1 AC?
HeirRaktus wrote:
The S component issue with Paladins and Clerics was created in 3.X as a matter of fact, and IMX almost all (even in 3.X) DMs ignored it unless it got really obnoxious. As for quickdraw, you may have noticed since that 3.X feat came out that it's been continually deemphasized and it's become easier and easier to draw and attack. That's not an accident.
I also remember the old 3.X rule being, that 'being able to move a couple of fingers' was sufficient which means you could do S components in 3.X with some shields (specifically light shields and bucklers).
-Polaris
GladiusLegis wrote:
HeirRaktus wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Proletheus wrote:
Plaguescarred wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Good guide, thanks for you work on this.
I do have a couple points to add into the discussion:
Feats
Shield Master
- Bonus action to shove can be used to knock prone, granting allies advantage against the target. May be used against targets one size larger than you. Str (Athletics) vs target's choice of Str (Athletics) or Dex (Acrobatics), so only worthwhile for Straladins. Once you have multiple attacks, you can hit once, shove to prone, attack again with advantage.
- Add shield AC bonus to dexterity saving throws against "a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you". Dex isn't the strong point of a Straladin, so this can potentially be huge. However, the "single target" snippet is unfortunate as it won't protect against AOEs. May help against certain types of traps though.
- Succeeding on Dex save for half effect allows spending reaction to take no damage instead.
Resilient (Dexterity)
- Almost all the saving throw for half damage effects, spell or ability, are dex based. For a Straladin, gaining proficiency in Dex saves can mitigate a significant amount of damage by granting half damage more frequently.
- Potential increase to initiative
- Though the bonus to AC is largely irrelevant due to heavy armor. Has some benefit in "you wouldn't be wearing armor' circumstances, or if you wear a breastplate instead of platemail in order to avoid Stealth disadvantage.
The combination of Shield Master + Resilient (Dexterity) allows for incredible survivability against boss fights. That 63 damage the Adult Red Dragon averages with it's Fire Breath attack? It's a DC 21 dexterity save. It's an area attack, so you don't get bullet point two from shield master, but you'll get cha + dex + prof bonus to save. A 17th level human (variant) could have 20 str, 18 cha, 11 dex (+1 to 12 from resilient) and both feats so will receive 4 + 1 + 6 = 11 bonus. That's a 50% chance to take zero damage instead of 63, potentially boosted further through magic items or pre-buffing from something like Resistance (cantrip), Bardic Inspiration, regular Inspiration, etc. It might be worth getting 20cha before 20str, in which case you're at +12, but either way you'll be at 20/20 str/cha at 19th level.
Add in Oath of Ancients and enemy spellcasters are drastically less frightening. Half damage from spells to start with, huge likelihood of saving for quarter damage (if area) or none (if single target). It's like having your own personal Sculpt Spell feature.
Are there other options that are potentially better? Perhaps. Do these feats deserve mention? I think so, it's worth discussing at least.
Find Steed Synergy
The warhorse obtained by the Find Steed spell is excellent at the level you can obtain it, but drops in value as you level due to it not progressing with you. Mounted Combat, as noted, goes a long ways towards keeping the mount alive. Due to the ability to have spells you case that target only yourself also extend to your mount, this provides some stacking goodness with:
- all of the smite line of spells (other than Destructive Wave)
- Magic Weapon / Elemental Weapon / Divine Favor
- lesser benefits from Protection from Good and Evil, Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Remove Curse, Protection from Poison
- other self only spells cast by multi-classed Paladins who've obtained spells from other classes
The main blocking point is that all the spells covered in the first two bullet points are concentration now, so you can only have one of them up at a time. Magic Weapon and Elemental Weapon are also now concentration, whereas before they just had fixed durations.
The Find Steed spell increases the steed's Int to 6, it can understand one language that you speak, and it also references that the spirit summoned assumes the "form of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed". It's not clearly stated, so discussing with your DM ahead of time will allow you to determine whether the mount will be ruled to be an Intelligent Mount or a Controlled Mount. To myself and several other DM's I've talked to, all ruled easily that it's intelligent, but your DM may disagree. If it's considered intelligent then it will have it's own initiative and own set of actions to attack with. Magic Weapon and Elemental Weapon will increase the chance of the mount delivering "free" damage, and possibly proning the target if you were able to move 20' first. Divine Favor and Smite series of spells will technically have their damage potential doubled, but since the mount will hit less frequently you're probably not going to get a full double effect.
It is unfortunately that the Find Steed spell doesn't allow using higher level spells to either obtain better mounts or boost the listed choices. However, at 5th level it can bring significant benefit to the party and, since it's permanent until dead, it doesn't even cost any initial resources after the first time you summon it.
Mounted Combat feat note
Low level entertainment, mount a Circle of the Moon Druid buddy who changes into a Dire Wolf for fun and amusement, advantage for everybody! Bring your lance! Can do at level 2!
LongTimeLurker wrote:
ppaladin123 wrote:
I don't like the Shield Master + Resilient (DEX) combo and don't think it's worth adding. DEX saves are common, but they're just damage and the occasional prone. CON saves are against some of the nastiest stuff in the game, plus there's Concentration. You can only take Resilient once, and to use it on anything other than CON is a total waste for numerous reasons. And Shield Master does nothing for the Paladin otherwise. The four feats and the couple footnotes I mentioned do way more.
And like ppaladin123 mentioned, Shield Master is useless against Dragon Breath and other multi-target effects, making its benefit even more questionable.
I think you need ability score improvement suggestions. Should I max strength/dex first, or improve my spell save DCs?
GladiusLegis wrote:
Seraphex wrote:
Question. Anyone have suggestions on aPal-Lock?
1-5 Pal for stant bump and 2nd attack. 6-20 Warlock for the other goodies....
As a Paladin/Warlock, I'd want to go 4/16 or 8/12 to get the final stat boost/feat. I'd be partial to 8/12 personally so I can get the save aura as well.
I'm playing a dexadin, fighter battle master 3/paldin X. He is a pretty good tankish guy. I think i LL go for the ancient oath bit i m noto really sure already.
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
So firstly I have to say thanks for the guide, as it's brilliant.
I've currently looking to put together a Oath of Vengance/Grey Guard Paladin, that I originally thought of and dropped in 4th due to MADs.
With this I remade him in 5th, Human Variant, and I'm finding that Extra Feat very handy.
This said however I noticed you recommend the Great Weapon Fighting and don't include the Feat "Savage Attacker" and then taking the Defensive style to get best of both for AC and Damage.
I was wondering why, as I felt that GWF felt a little more restrictive given the new roll MUST be taken, but admittedly I'm very new to 5th, and I've yet to test my paladin in a play setting, so any theorycrafting/expansion on reasoning would be fully appreciated :D
Again, brilliant guide, and I look forward to it being expanded on 
Savage Attacker only benefits the damage dice from the weapon. Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, Divine Favor, smite spells, etc. are not improved by it. So it doesn't add much at all, making it a waste of a feat. Quite frankly, I was shocked that it didn't come with a +1 stat boost attached.
On the other hand, GWF style does benefit everything from Divine Smite, et al. And unlike Savage Attacker, doesn't cost a feat.
Sentinel is another feat that fits nicely with the Oath of Vengeance archetype (sort of like last editions Defender) by allowing AoO when your opponent tries to run away. Reducing their speed for the rest of the turn also allows your teamates to finish them off. Very appropriate for the dirty vengeance type.
Mounted Combat is also a very underated feat, imo, which beat out Sentinel for my Oath of Devotion paladin.
GWF seems to be the Fighting Style of choice for OoV for the extra DPR, but you may also want to consider the Dueling Fighting Style for a good balance between offense and defense. Going with a pure Defence style for a Vengeance paladin seems counterproductive and is definitely less beneficial than either Dueling or GWF, but it all depends on your preference and character concept. Good luck with your build.
It really bothers me that Devotion Paladins get redundant spells in their list. Lesser Restoration is useless when you already have Lay on Hands, and Dispel Magic becomes redundant once you get Cleansing Touch. Same goes with Beacon of Hope, which is redundant since you already get immunity auras for fear and charm. Protection from Evil and Good at least, isn't redundant since even once you gain it permanently, you can still cast it on your allies. All in all, Devotion's spell list strikes me as in-theme, but there's very few synergies. In my games, I would houserule and swap out Dispel Magic for Revivify, and Lesser Restoration for either Shield or Cure Wounds, Beacon of Hope for Aura of Vitality, Guardian of Faith for Death Ward, and Flame Strike for Destructive Wave.
I've been trying to figure out a decent shield paladin build, but whatever I try just ends up seeming much weaker than a Greatsword build. If it were just a matter of a few points of slashing damage I'd be fine, but the fact that Greatweapon Fighting Style stacks with all the smites and other perks just makes it seem way too good. By my calculations, Greatweapon Fighting Style improves smite damage by ~17%, and all other damage dice by 15% ~ 20%. That's on top of the already-high damage of greatswords themselves. Is there anything that shields do that can make up for the enormous damage loss you take for choosing them? Obviously a shove every turn from Shield Mastery can be nice, but I don't know if that's enough compared to some of the crazy stuff you can pull off with greatswords.
---------------------
I notice you missed a key feature of the Paladin's mount. Normal horses must be directed, and can only be commanded to move, and not attack. The Paladin's mount, however, is intelligent, and can move and attack on its own. That means that while mounted on a warhorse, you get an extra 2d6 + 4, with a chance for prone and an additional 2d6 + 4. This makes Paladins amazing mounted combatants, however, it also makes the Mounted Combat feat weaker. You already get Advantage on prone enemies, and your horse can attempt to knock an enemy prone every turn, making the feat redundant. Finally, the mount lasts indefinitely unless it dies, so you don't even need to keep the spell prepared.
Devotion Paladins get the "classic" paladin spells as bonus spells, meaning they are free to prepare other things like compelled duel or more smite spells. It may not be super interesting from a character design standpoint, but it does give the paladin a lot of versatility, as they don't have to prepare the bread and butter defensive spells - kind of like a Life Cleric.
Shield is powerful simply because it adds 2 AC. You can choose +1 AC or +2 damage as a fighting style to complement your shield. Great Weapon Fighting style does increase bonus damage dice, but Duelist is a bigger flat bonus to just weapon damage, and the fact that paladins get Improved DIvine Smite further dilutes the bonus granted from a combat style.
If you look at the proportional damage changes, Duelist Style is probably the best if you consider both taking hits and dealing damage:
Paladin, full plate + shield, longsword or greatsword, 20 Strength, Improved Divine Smite:
(Fighting an enemy with +10 to hit)
Defense Style: 21 AC, 2d8+5 damage (14)
Duelist Style: 20 AC, 2d8+7 damage (16)
Great Weapon Style: 18 AC, 2d6+1d8+5 damage, re-roll 1 and 2 once (18.58)
So a Duelist paladin deals 14% more damage than a Defense paladin, but gets hit roughly 10% more often. (+14% dmg*, -10% defense) *not including smites
A Great Weapon paladin deals 16% more damage than a Duelist paladin, but gets hit roughly 20% more often. However, his or her smites also deal about 16% more damage.
If Great Weapon Fighting did not include smites (which honestly is going to add like 4-8 damage, before criticals, for even really big smites), I'm not sure it'd be worth giving up a shield.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Strill wrote:
Great Weapon Master is what pushes GWF over the top, especially for the Vengeance Paladin in a fight where they use the Vow. The GWF style is basically just the cherry on top.
Shield Master seems pretty useful to me- beyond the bonus action shove, which could be useful or not, getting +2 to single target Dex saves (such as rider effects on monsters attacks or hostile magic beams) is pretty nice. Having a Reaction to negate all damage from a fireball or breath weapon also could be quite useful. Considering that breath weapons seem to hit very hard compared to monster melee attacks, saving 15 or 20 hp from a special attack (even at mid to lower levels) seems like a good use of a reaction.
Protection Style could also be useful to prevent another party member from taking a big hit.
Basically, I see Great Weapon Style as a way to make two-handed weapons viable with buff spells - otherwise the base damage (4.5 vs 7) would be eclipsed by all the bonus dice potentially being rolled, and there would be little advantage to using your other hand for 2.5 bonus damage. It's sort of like the 1.5 strength modifier that two-handers got in 3rd edition- it helps to keep great weapons scaling as bonus damage is added (but rather than scale the static modifiers, it now adds to bonus dice).
Great Weapon Master is most likely still a useful feat for great weapon paladins, but the more bonus damage a character deals (such as Improved Divine Smite, elemental weapon, or divine favor), the less valuable the -5 hit / + 10 damage modifiers become.
For example, For a paladin going from a +9 to hit for 2d6+1d8+5 (re-roll 1s, 2s) [18.58] to a +4 to hit for 2d6+1d8+15 (re-roll 1s, 2s) [28.58], versus a monster with 15 AC, Great Weapon Master will deal (28.58/18.58) * (.5/.75) = 1.025, or only 2.5% more damage (about half a point of bonus damage)
For a fighter in the same situation (+9 to hit, 2d6+5, re-roll 1s, 2s), Great Weapon Master will deal (23.33 / 13.33) * (.5/.75) = 1.1667 or 16.67% more damage (or over two points of bonus damage)
With advantage (such as Oath of Vegeance), it's much better for the paladin, about 4.2 bonus damage versus 5.33 for the Fighter, but it still doesn't benefit the Paladin quite as much as a Fighter.
Of course, just like Great Weapon style, Great Weapon Master is still a source of bonus damage, but keep in mind it's probably not worth using it without advantage if you have bonus dice already.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Strill wrote:
For Feats, if you have the War Caster feat, then taking Magic Initiate to learn the Shield spell becomes a really great option.
Strill wrote:
Magic Initiate lets you learn a level 1 spell from any class. Hex anyone?
Yunru wrote:
Additionally, if you interpret the feat to mean that you generally "learn" hex from Magic Initiate (add it to your existing spell list), and you cast it in any form, Magic Initiate states that you cannot "cast" it again (from any source) until you take a long rest. However you interpret the feat, you get at most one level 1 hex spell per long rest.
I agree that the presence of divine favor and possibly hunter's mark makes learning the hex spell a fairly marginal gain.
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Okay, so then after you cast it once per day you can't cast it again until resting?
@mikemearls Does the "you learn that spell" language in the Magic Initiate feat mean you can cast it with existing spell slots?
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
Strill wrote:
I disagree. My original reading is that the feat gives you the spell as a spell-like ability or "class-less" spell, as it never says "add it to your spells known for X class. It is consider an X spell for you.", which is what happens in the case of Domain spells, which mimic the functionality you want to apply here. Therefore, you cannot use "other spell slots" to cast it, any more than a Drow Elf can use spell slots to cast darkness or a Tiefling can use spell slots to cast hellish rebuke.
Even if you take the feat literally and decide that the feat-holder "learns" the spell and can cast it with other spell slots, the feat itself limits the spell to once per long rest. It does not say that "you may cast it at its lowest level without using a spell slot. You can't do this again until you take a long rest." It says "you cannot cast the spell again until you take a long rest." So, by a literal reading, you still cannot use the spell more than once per rest.
This may change with official errata/clarification later, but as of now, Mike Mearls cautions that as written the feat only ever allows one casting per long rest, regardless of "what spell slot" (or lack of spell slot) is used to cast the spell from Magic Initiate.
In any event, as I said, it's really not worth even doing.
I agree with that interpretation. The intention is clearly to limit the spell to one cast per long rest.
Direach wrote:
Question regarding Multiclass.
My GM houserouled that you still get the ability bonus on 4/8.. level overall (so 3Pala/1x ist more viable).
Should I still go the straight route or use the "free" point on 4/8 to multiclass (even getting some spells later). I know there isn't as much min/maxing as in 4th edition.
Second question:
How could I get attacks from bonus actions?
gandrasch wrote:
3 Rogue levels for Assassinate are actually quite solid for a DEX-based Vengeance Paladin if you're OK with giving up Aura Improvements.
Whether to start as Rogue or Paladin is tougher; Rogue gets you more skills but DEX is the weakest "common" save, Paladin's WIS-save proficiency is much better. Also, 3/17 vs. 4/16 comes down to whether I want the full 5 ASIs/feats or 5th-level spells.
FluffyBunbunKittens wrote:
Another question.
Great Weapon Fighting / Sentinel vs. Str 20 at level 8. Whats more worth?
Also do you think it's a big disadvantage to start with cha 14 instead of 16? I'm the only melee guy, so a few extra hit points would be nice.
gandrasch wrote:
I typically like to get to STR 20 first, then get your feat at Lv. 12. YMMV.
CHA is generally better to boost. Those few HPs from a CON 14 to 16 aren't going to make that much difference. Bonus to all saves, on the other hand, along with higher spell DC ...
Firstly thanks for the guide!
I am rolling my first 5e character, and have decided to make a paladin. The rolls I have to work with are 17,17,15,12,12,11, which I think is pretty solid and means I can probably switch out of human because of reduced demand on feat spots, so in its place thinking of trying out a half elf.
Starting scores would be
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 11
Wis 12
Cha 19
Meaning between a level of +1 str and cha, and another getting the feat heavy armor master, both my main stats will be 20, leaving potentially space for three feats. I expect to probably fulfill somewhat a defender role in the party, so the sentenial feat is probably something I will want fairly early. This would all push back getting Resilience Con a fair bit, and so am thinking of starting out as a fighter class to pick up con saves, and also an extra 1 AC from the accessing fighting styles twice.
From that start I am thinking of building into a Vengful Paladin swinging a Maul with GWF, looking at grabbing great weapon master to to with Sentenial, and am also attracted to picking up lvl 3 fighter to grab battle master.
What I am mostly unsure of is which order it would be best to do this all in, or quite how things will work out at higher levels.
If anyone has any experience putting together a Paladin with a dip in fighter, or just knows more about this than I currently do (not hard), then any feedback on my plans would be greatly appreciated.
You can put off Resilient (CON) until Lv. 12. Especially with the stats you rolled.
If you do want to start as a Fighter, I'd probably go: Fighter 1, then Paladin 6 for Aura of Protection, two more levels of Fighter, then the rest Paladin.
Discorides wrote:
bid wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Strill wrote:
Plus the Variant Human's feat is more flexible than the Half-Elf's fixed +2 CHA. In practice, the Half-Elf will only be +1 ahead in CHA, since a V. Human will dedicate one of their two floating bonuses to it.
But that said, with stats like Discorides rolled, I'd probably go Half-Elf, too.
Strill wrote:
Thank you for the replies. Yup, you have pretty much comfirmed all my plans which is reassuring.
To fill in some details I hadn't sorted out when I wrote my first post; I am thinking running it to 17/3 rather than 16/4, because 5th level spells look awesome. I am planning to grab sentinal at 5, because I think its impact on play style during fights will be significant enough that it will help me to define my role more well than stat boosts. At level 11 (paladin 8), I would boost str and cha by one each, putting cha at 20 and str at 19. Then at 15 I would take heavy armor master to tip my str up to 20. Leaving heavy weapon master to pick up at 19. I think I will take the military background, leading me to the trained skill list of: animal handling, athletics, insight, intimidation, perception and persuasion.
Spells I figure can be left till I get there, but I did wonder about your black rating of Bless. Adding 1d4 (2.5) to all attack rolls and all saves for yourself and two other allies with concentration to sustain sounds really awesome to me?
Discorides wrote:
All the suggestions for spell selection and oath selection are based on a certain comment, better let your cleric do this. Would your recommendations change if the party did not have a dedicated healer? If so, how would you rate the various oaths (devotion / ancients / vengance) if the party did not have a dedicated healer. My party has 1 str fighter, 1 dex archer fighter, 1 wizard and a paladin.
Personally, I'd rather see ratings without party optimization, with notes saying it goes down in favor if you've got X, Y or Z.
I do understand that for the Paladin, spells that work while you're also attacking are the best options.
Bless, regardless of who casts it, seems gold rating to me. Adding an encounter long buff to hit and saves is awesome. They are the two most vital combat stats. To compare it to other spells, you need to think about it in terms of damage added and damage/conditions avoided. Everytime it pushes a miss into a hit, then Bless has effectively done that damage. Everytime it changes being hit by a condition into a save, then all the damage that condition would have prevented you from doing, can be tagged up next to Bless. Everytime it helps a concentration save succeed that would have failed, tag up all benefits of that continued spell to Bless. Also, it scales awesomely, as the better your characters, especially the more attacks they have, the more it adds. So in terms of damage added and damage avoided, how does anything else compare?
Assuming you defiently want someone casting this, then the question becomes, is it really better for a cleric to cast than a paladin? Why? You both have the same number of 1st level spell slots to use, so it is equally a drain on your resources. You both have to concentrate to maintain it, and seem equally likely to be taking damage to possibly break it. So, then it becomes a question of opportunity costs. Could either class be using their 1st level spell slot more effectively? And, are there any better spells they could maintain with concentration in its place?
Paladins have higher saves, and are less likely to lose it do to their aura.
I agree that character optimization guides should be written without considering party optimization. Having said that, the guide also states that Bless, Aid and Beacon of Hope should be cast by the party cleric and rates them accordingly. I would prefer if the guide rated spells free of this assumption. Also, I would like some advice based on what oath would be better if there is no dedicated healer / cleric in the party.
It is a matter of party role. Compare the Cleric's and the Paladin's Lv. 1 spell lists (plus Divine Smite for the Paladin). The Cleric's spells are mostly support and healing; it has Guiding Bolt and Inflict Wounds, but neither of those inflict the damage the Paladin does with use of a Lv. 1 slot (and are pretty average spells, if you ask me). The Paladin, on the other hand, besides being able to use Divine Smite, has smite spells and Divine Favor, putting him pretty squarely in the role of damage dealer. A Bless cast by the Paladin is one less Divine Smite or Divine Favor, while a Bless cast by the Cleric is pretty much his MO.
Now, is it a credit to the Paladin that he CAN flip roles to support/leader and cast Bless if need be? Definitely. But if there's a Cleric, it'd be more efficient for the Cleric to cast Bless (and target the Paladin with it), and then the Blessed Paladin activate Divine Favor or a smite spell on top of that and go into full damage-dealing mode.
I bumped Bless, Aid and Beacon of Hope to blue. Bless I gave a conditional gold if you don't have a Cleric, a conditional black if you do, since Cleric casting it on Paladin while the Blessed Paladin goes in for full damage with Divine Smite/smite spell/Divine Favor is the most efficient.
Aid is blue in the early levels, falls to black later. Maybe even purple in late teen levels.
Beacon of Hope is really good to use if a Cleric is casting Prayer of Healing. Or a second Paladin uses Aura of Vitality (or Bard who plucked it with Magical Secrets).
GladiusLegis wrote:
Beacon of Hope has a range of 30 feet. Your auras don't get a 30-foot range until Lv. 18. The 10-foot range before then makes you negating fear and (possibly) charm in your allies situational until that point.
Also, many effects and spells have you make a save every round to break out of the condition, so it's not a bad idea to cast Beacon of Hope even after getting affected.
GladiusLegis, thanks for the guide! Currently playing a paladin and the class is great so far, very fun to play: it has its strengths, but also a fair amount of weaknesses, so I often feel powerful, but never some situations are beyond my character (ranged is not my strongest suit).
Question though, my paladin is a half-elf (mostly for the flavor) and has 16 STR and CHA. At level 4 I took great-weapon mastery instead of a bump in strength. If I ever get to the highest levels, I can still max out both strength and charisma. But your guide recommends the resilient (constitution) feat and makes a pretty good argument as to why it's important to have. Do you think it is worth sacrificing 20 CHA for, though?
And do you think I made the right call in picking up GWM at level 4 instead of waiting until level 12 to get it? My reasoning was that I would rather have the feat earlier in my career (and enjoy the bonus actions more and sooner), but of course at the cost of gaining +1 to hit and damage way, way later. For the record, my paladin has the oath of vengeance and wields a greatsword.
In any event, thanks for the guide! I have it bookmarked for further use if I gain levels!
Logain08 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
I'm working on the background for my Dragonborn paliden of Bahamut. This sounded simple until my research showed that Forgotten Realm Dragonborn primarly did not worship any Gods in 4th edition. Also they did not like dragons because they were once slaves to dragons. Now in 5th edition most Dragonborn worship the Gods of the dragons and I can not find any info for this dramtic change
Well, now that you;ve got the theory pretty much nailed down, how about you post some builds? I'm curious to see the realization of these concepts.
I saw a shield master Paladin in action yesterday and he seems to do roughly the same amount of damage as a GWF Paladin does. GWF does more damage per hit, the shield master fighter will hit more often via pushing stuff over. +3 AC also reduce your incoming damage a lot as that Paladin had the +1 AC fighting style.
Average party damage also goes up if the shield master fighter is knocking stuff prone so over party DPR may be higher than a GWF just pounding away thinking he is the uber rockz because he deals an extra 4.275 DPR.
***NUMBERS HAVE BEEN FIXED***
I'm not convinced that bless should be rated gold for the paladin ever. I believe I can design a reasonable party such that bless will be an inferior choice at lower levels. At max levels it may be somewhat better, but given the paladin is a melee front line fighter it may also get knocked off easily (without taking war caster with your limited feats/stat bumps for a character that already values 3 stats... str/ con/ cha.
So I'm going to look at a basic level 6 party and let's see if a level 1 bless is worth it.
Let's assume a party of a paladin a fighter and 2 casters. Let's assume a 50% to hit chance and ignore crits.
Turn 1:
Paladin goes first casts bless on himself the fighter and one caster.
The fighter does 1d8 +6 (2 attacks) (62.5% chance to hit now with bless) This = 13.125 damage for the fighter. For the blessed caster he does 2d10 at 62.5% chance to hit. 6.875 damage. The other unblessed caster does 5.5 damage. This is 25.5 party damage.
Turn 2.
Everything is the same but the paladin also attacks. He does 1d8+5 (50% chacne to hit). This = 11.875 damage. The rest of the party does 25.5 damage. Total damage now is 37.375
Damage formula is 37.375*(x-1) + 25.5
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I am going to substitute a paladin bless for a lvl 1 divine smite.
Turn 1: Paladin attacks for 9.5 dmg. Fighter attacks for 10.5 damage. Caster1 = 5.5 dmg. Caster2 = 5.5 dmg. Total damage of 31.
Turn 2: Party damage 31. However between turns 1 and 2 the paladin has made 5 attacks at a 50% chance to hit. That means he has a 93.75% chacne to hit with at least 1. This means at least a 93.75% chance to land divine smite for 9 extra damage. This translates to about 8 extra damage.
Damage formula is approximately 31x + 8
-----------------------------------------------
37.375x - 11.875 > 31x + 8
6.375x > 19.875
x > 3.117
---------------------------------------------------------
So in this scenario bless has to last more than 3 turns after the paladin casts it to even break even with just using the spell slot for divine smite. Assuming the paladin could easily lose concentration on bless before this happens I think I've demonstrated that while bless is a good option a paladin can typically just cast divine smite instead and in some situations divine smite may prove better than bless.
(For exampe it gives him a good chance to strike a monster down on his first turn or at least weaken a monster so much that another character can easily dispatch the monster before it goes again).
A paladin casting Bless is not overpowered for low levels such as levels 1-10. (Highter levels it will scale better though).
If the Paladin blessed himself he's hitting more than 50%. You failed to account for that in Turn 2 of your first example.
Also, there's quite a lot of fights IMX where the enemy will be too far away to actually attack in the first round. In that case a first-round Bless is strictly ideal.
GladiusLegis wrote:
It's only gold if there's no Cleric.
EDIT: Also, at Lv. 6, +2 CON +3 CHA (Aura of Protection) + 2.5 Bless = +7.5 CON save. Meaning you're typically only failing a concentration check on a 2 or 3. If you're a Variant Human who took Resilient (CON), you're not failing at all, probably, since not too many monsters at that level deal more than 20 damage on a single hit.
On second thought, I can see it being not mandatory even sans Cleric, but it's definitely a power play for the right fight and party composition. Sky blue.
Four sample builds are now up.
GladiusLegis wrote:
I think that the Paladin's Lay on Hands is better than the Cleric's healing options. A Paladin can spend each of those hit points to bring an ally back into the fight, while a Cleric needs a spell slot or the Healer feat to do so. In terms of quantity of healing they're inferior, but considering that magic and the Healer feat are the only things that can bring a player back into the fight, I think it's notable that the Paladin can use this ability so often.
Strill wrote:
Logain08 wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
Very nice guide indead. I have to say I was dissapointed at the paladin when I first looked at the class (due to some changes since the prior to the last playtest), but I have to admit it's a well designed class. Too bad that the dex paly doesn't get too much love, and that the multiclass requirements are so strict, but oh well, you can't have it all. What I would like to know, is if anyone knows how a greatsword paly would do compared to a polearm paly during the several tiers of play. With the vengeance oath that is. Any thoughts?
Corran21 wrote:
The main drawback I can see for the polearm, is that until you get haste, you will use hunter's quarry to boost your damage, and it is using your bonus action, as does vow of enmity. So, if below level 9, it may be only at your third round of combat that you ll get to do that extra attack with the secondary end, assuming you are facing a single strong enemy (boss fight). After level 9, and especially after level 11 when you get improved divine smite, polearm seems to be doing better, considering that the great weapon master feat used with the greatsword will have lost a lot of its power, since your overall damage increases (by the d8 of IDS, and by the increased by then STR stat), so you are risking more to get that +10 to damage. I assume not taking the great weapon master feat with the polearm paly, but only with the greatsword one. Then again, the greatsword works better with the GWF fighting style, and performs better on a crit, also it works better with haste than a polearm does. I have concluded (without running any numbers), that the greatsword paly can do better against fighting a single enemy, while the polearm paly will do better when vow of enmity (and maybe haste) are not into play, as without having to use vow of enmity, you will use your bonus action to attack with the secondary end one more time (assuming the d8's from IDS). Also, the greatsword paly doesn't have to take Sentinel, like the polearm paly does, so that is maybe one more ability bump. Can't really decide between those two builds, each has it's own pros and cons, and it will depend a lot on the combat situation for which will work better. But I can definitely see the polearm paly struggling with his bonus actions, especially before level 9 when he gets haste.
FrogReaver wrote:
With Great Weapon Fighting Style in play (if all attacks were to hit):
Greatsword: (8.33 + 5.25 + 5) * 2 = 37.16 potential damage
Glaive/Halberd w/ Polearm Master: (6.3 + 5.25 + 5) * 2 + (3 + 5.25 + 5) = 46.35 potential damage
In terms of actual DPR calculations, Great Weapon Master would close the gap for the greatsword to some extent. It'd close that gap a lot (or even surpass) in fights against multiple weak foes where it's possible you'll get a kill and the ensuing bonus attack in the majority of rounds. It'd close that gap marginally in a boss fight where you'd get the bonus attack on a crit.
On the other hand, the -5/+10 trade would benefit the polearm more (assuming you go the route of taking PM *AND* GWM). But that trade in general is only really worth the extra variance if you have advantage or some other major attack buff.
Logain08 wrote:
What do yall think about an Warlock/Paladin multiclass? A Pact of Blade seems like it would mesh well? and idk if the 5th level innvocation that grants extra attack stacks, idk if it would. It is a class featrue, but not Extra attack feature. Ideas? The RP idea being contacted by an Old One, and you take up an oath of vengance to get its reveange. Havent decided if my character is being compelled by it, or is just crazy enough to think its a good idea.
Thirsting Blade does not stack with Extra Attack.
Okay, even with out that, do you think that it could be a good build?
cowleymen wrote:
mellored wrote:
And at level 12 you get to add cha as well as str mod to damage with your weapon, just grab the appropriate invocation (lifedrinker I think). You would probably be a little subpar to EB warlock, but using a weapon is always cool, plus you get smite for very good nova. Definitely a workable build, as you can combine well enough these 2 classes. Maybe a straight paly or a paly/sorcerer is better though.
IxidorRS wrote:
Ahrimon wrote:
IxidorRS wrote:
Elenduin wrote:
Corran21 wrote:
Has anyone considered muliticlassing into Bard? It seems like the best choices are to go Paladin 6 then take a 3 level dip into Bard, or to go Paladin 6 and then go Bard the rest of the way. There would be some serious hits in Ability Adjustments/Feats, but it seems like there is some symmetry there. Any thoughts?
Any Paladin/Bard multi would definitely be heavy on the Bard side. Paladin 6/Bard 14 would be OK. Or even 2/18 just for Divine Smite, while getting the Bard's 9th-level spells and final Magical Secrets.
Paladins gain little from splashing Bard, overall. Jack of All Trades is ... nice, but definitely not worth delaying other Paladin features for.
Unfortunately,
GWF is not that hot anymore....
http://thesageadvice.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/great-weapon-smite/
IxidorRS wrote:
Ghostofoz wrote:
So I may have missed this somewhere else in the guide (which I have said before is brilliant), but I've been putting together my Greatsword Oath of Vengeance Paladin this weekend, and I've been considering Multi-classing into Fighter, and what levels I'd take such Fighter levels and I have a query.
In the Guide, when looking to MC, it seems Battlemaster seems to be the recommended archetype to take due to Superiority Dice and the maneuvers, but I was wondering, wouldn't Champion with the increased crit range offer better or decent synergy with GWM Feat for the Bonus action? I know that Riposte and Presicion are nice maneuvers, but they feel a little underwhelming I guess, unless I'm missing something in the form of Action Efficiency, regarding Bonus Actions vs. Reaction actions.
I was planning on making a 16Str/16Cha Human Variant, starting with Resilence (Con), then take 12 levels Paladin, to get the first to Ability Boosts at 4 and 8, and the Extra Attack, as well as Haste at level 9. Given you get Aura of Courage, and then Improved Divine Smite, it makes sense to carry this on until 12, pick up Great Weapon Master Feat, and then switch to Fighter for 3 or 4 levels.
This would let you pick up Second Wind, another Fighting Style (Defence or Duelist, depending on the campaign, as I should have a fair indication at that point if I need to switch to Sword/Board much/ at all, then Action Surge for Nova purposes, and finally Archetype. The Final Level in Fighter is dependent on if I can live with Cha 18, or if I want to max it out, and given the bonus to Auras, and the fact I'd not be getting improved Auras, I probably would take that extra bump, but I don't know if the lack of level 5 spells will hurt?
This should put me at 16, and let me then plow the rest into Paladin for a 16/4 split.
Does this seem like the smart way to MC, without starting as a Fighter (Dismissed this, as it's still recommended to pick up the Wis save, so I'd simply trade one save for another, and put off when I get my Extra attack), and why is Battle Master the suggested Archetype over Champion for the Synergy with GWM? Just want to make sure I'm not being an idiot :D
Cheers all.
Is it worth spending your action on Sacred Weapon if you don't have Great Weapon Master?
GladiusLegis wrote:
Ishamaelus wrote:
So, I wanna create a paladin/assassin, for later use in some other campaign than the one I am playing currently. It fits the concept of a spy of a rival nation, that I have in mind, and the basic idea of the build will be to exploit the assassin mechanics (critical on surprised targets) combined with the extra dice from divine smite. Unfortunately the problems that occur are numerous, from the MAD issue in order to multiclass, to the weapon of choice (greatsword is nice for critical and dpr, but doesn't work with sneak attack, and there are no finese 2 handed weapons - oh, I am thinking the vengeance oath, so that is why I thought to focus on a heavy weapon, as it works well with stuff like vow of enmity and haste. I also thought of TWF, but I feel it is not as good as a greatsword or a polearm. I will probably aim for a good dex score, since I will rely on stealth a lot, but then the best weapon I can hope for is a rapier, unless I also manage a good strength score. Anyway, it's very difficult for me to decide how to go about it, if I tailor the build towards one point, I leave it exposed at something else. Any thoughts on how to distribute ability points, weapon of choice (consider sneak attack and good critical), and level progression, would be really helpful. I have thought a way to build this, but it does not leave me completely happy, so I would like to see if anyone has any useful advice.
Possibly that needed its own thread, but since this is the paladin thread, I thought to ask here first. Thanks in advance for any suggestions you might have.
Corran21 wrote:
Strill wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Jack of All Trades also applies to Initiative, which is great for slow to go Paladins.
I could see delaying my oath to learn a bit of art (well, after level 1, must get that heavy armor).
Oathbreaker preview from the DMG is up! And it's looking pretty damn good! Way more impressive than the Death Domain of the two "villainous" options.
The highlights:
Control Undead: Can control an undead creature of a CR up to one less than the Paladin's level. That can wind up being really, really strong. Basically, any non-legendary undead creature is eventually yours for the taking.
Dreadful Aspect: Mass frightening as a Channel Divinity. Can't get much better than that.
Oathbreaker spells: A mixed bag, but the highlights are, without a doubt, Animate Dead (!) at 3rd-level (Paladin 9th) and Contagion (!!!!!) at 5th-level (Paladin 17th). Those two spells alone make up for some of the mediocrity sprinkled elsewhere on the Oathbreaker list.
Aura of Hate: CHA-mod to your own melee weapon damage plus the melee weapon damage of your personal army from Animate Dead. Or, better still, if you have a necromancer as an ally. In any case, the damage potential from this is just rank.
Updated the guide with the Oathbreaker stuff.
For Devotion, would Compelled Duel then next round Sanctuary be a good tactic combo to tank the big boss and give teammates enough time to kill the spawns first?
CanadaWu wrote:
Very nice guide
Any chance for one or two dex based builds to be posted?
Noctaem wrote:
Knight_Marshal wrote:
How counterproductive is it to go sword and board with the Vengeance Oath? Has the math been done on how far behind they are from GWF/feat in comparison?
For some background, we're about to start a campaign with 3 PCs (possibly 4 if we find one) that consists of a Wild Magic Sorc and an Illusionist Wizard, with myself playing the Paladin. Given how incapable the rest of the party will be at taking any form of a hit, it seemed in my best interest to be able to fill that role. That said, this guide (and the forum in general) seems to strongly lean towards GWF and the various feats along with it, and the obvious choice for Vengeance is a GWF. The other two Oaths, beyond their level 7 feature and Sacred Weapon for Devotion, don't really feel appealing to me.
Placeholdadin
LE Var. Human (Talos)
Abilities: STR 18, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 4, WIS 12, CHA 18
- Skills: Athletics +6, Insight +3, Intimidation +6, Persuasion +6, Perception +3
- Class: Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
- Fighting Style: Duelist
- Human Feat: Shield Master/Sentinel/Resilient(CON)/Heavy Armor Master (Undecided)
- Equipment: Longsword, shield, Chainmail Armor, misc. gear
As we were required to roll for stats, I've ended up with the need to only take two ABIs in order to cap out both STR and CHA, leaving a possible 3 feats (4 with Var. Human) to pick. Since I'm not sure there's 4 useful feats for sword and board, I can alternatively start Half Elf, which will give me all of the benefits half elves obtain, as well as an additional +1 modifier to CON at level 8 in exchange for one of four feats.
Does anyone have insight or experience into this playstyle, or advice on something I may have missed?
It was suggested to me to post my DEX build in this thread.
Build Focus/Goals
- Tank: The primary role of this build is to act as a tank, using spells such as compelled duel, or command in order to draw off an enemy brute, allowing the party some breathing room. Fighting style options include duelling (which helps to narrow the gap in damage compared to the GWM builds) - or defense, boosting their already considerable defenses higher.
- Stealth/Espionage: Unlike most paladin builds, this build can not only match the AC of Plate armor+Shield, but can do so without suffering disadvantage on stealth checks.
- Versatile: While primarily melee-focused, this build has a respectable ranged attack in the form of a Longbow. This grants the build increased versatility compared to the GWM builds, and allows the build to function respectably, even in encounters where the paladin is typically weak.
Ability Scores
- Strength (10-14): 13 minimum if multiclassing. Otherwise, this stat is a partial dump-stat (only needed for encumbrance/multiclassing). If taking shield master, I recommend a 14 here. Otherwise, 10 or 13.
- Dexterity (16-20): Start with a 16 is ideal. From there, it is a matter of preference as to how important an 18 or 20 is. I think 18 DEX is a happy medium, as it allows you to shore up your constitution.
- Constitution (12+): Increase as desired. 13 is an ideal number here, as it boosts naturally to 14 when taking the resilient (constitution) feat.
- Intelligence (8+): Dump Stat. The Paladunce is alive and well with this build.
- Wisdom (8+): Possible dump stat. Some might argue that Wis is important for perception, but I say leave that to another character in the party.
- Charisma (14-16): Start with at least 14 in this stat, as this is your primary spellcasting stat. Improving this stat is not mandatory, but if multiclassing as a sorcerer or bard - you need at least a 16 here.
Race Options
- Human (Var): This is the best choice for the build, as it lets you take MAM at 1st level, while also picking up stealth via race.
- Half-Elf: +2 CHA, and +1 to STR and DEX saves you a lot of stat points while also granting you stealth as a freebie. I recommend Half-Elves if planning on multiclassing. If playing in AL - starting human and then rebuilding to half-elf at 4th level is also an option, if a little underhanded.
- Other: Halflings, Elves, and other DEX races can all find a home in this build, but having to wait until 4th level before picking up MAM hurts.
Skills
- Stealth: As the build uses medium armor mastery, I strongly recommend snagging proficiency in stealth via background, or race (human or half-elf).
- Athletics or Acrobatics: If you take shield master, take Athletics. Otherwise, take Acrobatics (to resist grapples/shoves).
- Other: All other skills are based on personal preference.
Feats
- Medium Armor Mastery: Mandary feat for the build (described below). Pick this up ASAP.
- Resilience (Constitution: This feat is useful for obvious reasons. It is of special importance if multiclassing as a sorcerer, bard, or warlock.
- Shield Mastery: Useful feat, but not mandatory. Lets you knock enemies prone before smiting them, but the reliance on STR hurts. Also, keep in mind the fact that Hunter's mark (if vengeance) also requires a bonus action, as do several other paladin spells (smites in particular).
- Other: Few other feats offer immediate benefit to this build, but feel free to take any that suit your fancy.
Medium Armor Mastery (AC19-21)
While I recommend being human and snagging this feat at 1st level, waiting till 4th level is perfectly viable as the first few levels are attained swiftly, and there is less drawbacks to having AC 18, or disadvantage on stealth checks at these levels. At 4th level however, this feat is mandatory for the build to function.
- Scale + Shield (AC19): This is 1 point less than plate, does not imposed disadvantage on stealth checks, and at a negligable fraction of the cost. Also, unlike plate - this is available from 1st level (if human).
- Half-Plate + Shield (AC20): At half the cost of Plate armor, this combo grants the same AC, without imposing disadvantage on stealth checks thanks to the MAM feat.
Fighting Style Options
- Duelling: +2 damage when using a rapier or scimitar helps narrow the gap in damage vs. the GWM builds. This build is not a DPS-primary build however, so this is not mandatory.
- Defense: +1 AC increases your AC to 20 as early as 2nd level (if human), or 21 as soon as half-plate is acquired. If going this route, I strongly suggest preparing compelled duel for situations where a high-damage target does not engage you, and instead targets a more squishy ally.
Weapons: Rapier, Longbow. Pick up a scimitar by level 5 as a backup weapon in case of creatures resistant to piercing.
Multiclassing: This build multiclasses well with the sorcerer, and to a lesser extent with the bard and warlock.
- Sorcerer: Grants useful spell options like shield, while also greatly increasing your spell slots, greatly improving the frequency with which you can use divine smite, and/or hunter's mark (if vengeance pal). Not recommended before 6th level, unless you are willing to delay extra attacks. If multiclassing sorcerer, I would not take more than 7 levels of paladin (for auras), as you will gain more benefit from your sorc spellcasting levels than your pal levels.
- Bard: Some useful spells. With this build, you have the option of leaving Paladin at 2nd level, and then multiclassing as a valor bard. Final build options include Pal 2/Bard 18, Pal 3/Bard 17, and Pal 4/Bard 16 - each of which prioritizes different features.
- Warlock: While I am a fan of splashing Warlock 2, it offers little to this build - encouraging the use of agonizing blast, over your rapier. Few of the invocations and spells offer much to this build, but some may find it pallatable.
- Other: Fighter improves the builds melee options, but at the expense of spellcasting capabilities. Ranger can broaden versatility, but offers nothing of immediate benefit. All of a barbarian's abilities focus on strength, making this a trap choice. All other classes offer some benefit depending on your focus.
Which paladin build do you all deem to be the most effective overall between the 2 you listed below?
The Variant Human, Oath of Vengeance, Polearm Master/Sentinel
OR
spellbinder5150 wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Ahrimon wrote:
spellbinder5150 wrote:
neilselden wrote:
Where can I find the Knight background please?
PHB under the customization chapter I believe. They are sorted alphabetically.
It's a variant of the Noble background.
Link please.
[/quote]Noctaem wrote:
Crawford should be the official ruling on this, but getting him to respond to tweets can be... It can take quite awhile sometimes. But I imagine people ask him stuff constantly, and if he spent all day on Twitter he'd never get any of his work done. Hopefully he answers soon! I just asked him now. If he responds, I'll post his answer.
For some people a Slot is just a Slot,
but other people really like their Slots.
When did: Twitter = Rules , happen?
And will: Snapchat = Rules , for 6th Edition?
(or that'll be passé already by then)
Paladin 6 / Warlock 3
Paladin 6 / Warlock 12
Paladin 11 / Warlock 5
Paladin 13 / Warlock 7
"Cthulhu speaks to me. My sword speaks to you."
awaken_D_M_golem wrote:
neilselden wrote:
You might want to mention relentless assault + polearm master synergy. It's not much, but hey, free movement.
If you use the optional DMG marking rules, a Paladin with Sentinel is a madman as a defender. Note that those free OAs against marked enemies are once per turn (as opposed to per round), so you're back to ganking multiple enemies who try to walk away from you.
Min-maxing math aside, I've been thinking about some blend of Ancients Paladin, Land Druid, and Archfey Chain Lock. A lot of it is just for flavor....a shapeshifting guardian of the woods with a pseudo-dragon familiar just sounds like a blast.
But here are the appealing synergies I'm thinking of:
- Druid gets you Shillelagh
- Land Druid gets you spell recovery, which means more slots for Divine Smite
- Warlock also gets you recoverable spell slots, of higher than 1st level, for Divine Smite
- Pseudo-dragons are just cool. Plus they can poison your enemies, which rocks.
- As noted, you really only need to max Cha, and with heavy armor you don't need dex. Some Con for hit points. So 2 attribute increases to Cha (or potentially one split with another attribute, if you start with 17) and the rest to feats, notably polearm master.
It's probably not as optimal as just Paladin and Book Lock, but tons of fun I think. Next campaign I join I think I'm going to do this.
Start with Paladin for heavy armor?
Adjusted ratings on a couple spells after some playing experience with them and added some DMG material (example races, a few magic items).
Unfortunately, that requires a pretty major sacrifice in another attribute, as you need 13 in what is typically the Paladin's dump stat (INT) to MC Wizard.
That and +Proficiency to your undead's damage. That's +Cha mod+Proficiency as early as level 15. Would have to double check but becoming a vampire or some other form of undead could possibly also make it apply to you.
Regarding War Caster: I think it's worth pointing out that if you're going sword-and-board and you want to MC into bard or warlock (or any spellcasting class really), then War Caster pretty much becomes mandatory as, without it, you won't be able to cast any spells with somatic components while you've got your hands full.
Vengence Oath:
Did you place the red rating on Abjure Enemy because
(1) it's so much worse than Vow of Enmity, or
(2) it's inherently a poor choice?
I'm considering an "alternate oath " design to enable Warlord-like characters; and scaring a bunch of my foes stiff, sounds useful.
(Probably Sacred Weapon would be the other feature; persuade me if there is a better choice.)
Both.
And Abjure Enemy only works against one enemy at a time, so it's hardly "scaring a bunch of your foes stiff." The fear even goes away after the enemy's damaged.
I am looking to put together a Paladin who uses the longbow as his primary means of offense and I would like some feedback.
General Notes:
*Starting Fighter to get Con Saves and Archery style (Paladin doesn't have it...)
*Yes, I have the stats to legally MC Paladin (Rolled stats)
Issues:
1) Absent DM permission, Divine Smite/Improved Divine Smite only work with MELEE weapons. Can a Smite-less build work? More uses of Divine Favor/Haste, I suppose.
2) If I'm going Smite-less, should I just be a Ranger?
3) Since he'll get a second Fighting Style from Paladin, is Defense my best bet? At that point, I feel that +1 AC is better than +2 damage on my back-up weapons.
If I'm going Smite-less...what spells do I choose? I'd like this concept to work, but I want to make sure I'm exploring all angles.
If I've overlooked an issue, please bring it to my attention. I'd like to have this character be RAW as much as possible.
Thanks!
I certainly wouldn't go higher than 9 levels in Paladin if you're going to be an archer. Improved Divine Smite being melee only pretty much makes that a non-entity.
I'd go Fighter 11/Paladin 9. In fact, I'd take all 11 Fighter levels first to get 3 attacks/action, then start taking Paladin levels. You still won't be able to Smite, but your other Paladin features coming online will work.
As for spells, 1st level: Command, Bless (if you have no Cleric), and Divine Favor are pretty safe bets. 2nd level: Branding Smite is one of two Smite spells that allows ranged weapons, so take that one. 3rd level: Aura of Vitality for the big healing, and/or Crusader's Mantle for the party-wide damage buff.
MHolmanEsq wrote:
Paladin Spell casting is getting annoying. They have some nice spells, but they are virtually all concentration. Bless, Hunter's Mark, Shield of Faith, etc...... I realize the Smite spells and Divine Smite are available, but I mostly pull those out for the big fight....
Coredump00 wrote:
Yep.. thats it. Bless is really handy, and Shield of Faith could be helpful sometimes.... even Prot G//E or Bane.... I guess not being able to easily stack spells is a good thing for the game, but frustrating for me.
Oh, you wanted a specific...
Last session we were fighting hobgoblins, and I squared off on the leader. I felt I needed to take him down fast, so I needed Hunter's Mark on me. But my party could have really used the extra D4 from Bless (especially once we realized they were AC18). I understand the stacking restrictions, it just means I may never cast any spell except Hunter's Mark.... (*maybe* a smite.... but even that is only maybe)
Leugren wrote:
If you have any other attacking ally (including fire bolt shooting wizards), bless is will easily beat out hunter's mark.
If your by yourself it's a bit of a toss up.
The more damage you do, the more bless is worth,
the more accuracy you have more hunter's mark is worth.
HM: 1d8+5+2 (dualing style)+ 1d6 * 50% = 7.5
B: 1d8+5+2 * 62.5% = 7.1875
Past 11.
HM: 2d8+7+1d6 * .5 = 9.75
B: 2d8+7 * .625 = 10
Though with the bonus to saves, which helps keep concentraion, means it's HM can easily be forgotten.
Same is true with divine favor and crusader's mantle later. Though that can affect more people, so it's still has some good applications.
Unless someone else casts it, then yea for damage!
Coredump00 wrote:
Re: Haste and Crusaders Mantle
Of course those are good choices....once I get to 9th level...and even then only for 2 combats (3 at lvl 11-20)
mellored wrote:
close if your the only target, bless affects 2 other allies as well, so it's a straight win (assuming you have allies).
crusader's mantle only wins if it can effect more then 2 allies (mainly with summons/necromancer).
Re: Bless vs. Hunter's Mark on person, don't forget that Bless takes an action to activate while Hunter's Mark activates with just a bonus action. Divine Favor is the same way. So if you're the only target, it's typically better to use Hunter's Mark/Divine Favor instead of Bless simply because you get to make your full attack routine the first round.
Of course, if you're self-buffing, more than likely there's a Cleric casting Bless anyway so you can focus on self-buffs.
With a Cleric casting Bless, that also frees you up to cast Crusaders's Mantle and give your party the benefits of both spells.
I dunno about that, a Paladin and a Cleric together in the same party can be pretty special.
Noctaem wrote:
The bigger weapons are only a bit better at dealing damage, and Polearm Master isn't needed to lockdown a foe. Especially if you play with optional marking rules.
Ha yeah, getting 19 AC is easy on dexadins, higher is possible as well if you take defensive fighting style or have other means. In fact you can easily have a higher AC than any other paladin build without investment other than the basics. Anyway not interested in having a "my build is better than yours" contest. Dexadins are awesome, I'm playing one and I don't regret it at all.
I'm not saying Dexadins are bad, and this isn't a whose buiild is better contest. Dexadins are in fact quite awesome. Just saying that making a blanket statement like "Dexadins are basically better than Straladins in almost every way in 5E" is just flat-out wrong. They are both viably useful for different reasons, depending on the type of character you want to build. (And for a tank, polearm reach and sentinel is pretty awesome for battlefield control...though that certainly doesn't invalidate a Dex-based tank build)
And also, if you don't want to invest in feats or fighting styles and really want the highest AC, nothing beats plain ole' plate armor and a shield at AC 20 (Dexadin in studded leather, a shield, and Dex 20 would have AC 19). Of course, you don't get the initiative bonus or the more useful saving throw bonus that a Dexadin gets, but that's the tradeoff.
miburo99 wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Because it's not just 2AC. Dex affects Accuracy, Damage, AC, Intitative, Dex Saves and Dex Checks. Str affects Accuracy, Damage, unsused Str Saves and rarely used Str checks.
But you wouldn't take half-plate. You take a single level of Sorcerer. Cue 15+Dex AC.
Yunru wrote:
If you guys are going to shift the goalposts of the discussion to comparing 1 hander + shield vs 1 hander + shield instead of vs two-handed weapons, you're going to have differences in the comparison. No one is arguing that. The reason the comparison was being made was because you guys immediately jumped to saying "but 2-handed weapons!!!". So establishing what we're comparing is kind of important to the discussion.
Thank you GladiusLegis ( VERY paladin-esque nick XD) for the excellent guide!
Also, additional thanks for keeping it up to date with the DMG
Great job Gladius! Thanks for putting in so much work.
I have a quick ASI/feat question for you and the forum:
I'm playing a Half-Orc Oath of Vengeance paladin. At level 7 my stats are:
Str 20
Dex 12
Con 14
Wis 14
Int 10
Cha 14
My role in my party (fighter/cleric, warlock, bard) is to spray damage in melee and nova the nastiest enemy ASAP. Would I be best served by boosting Charisma by 2 or taking Great Weapon Master with my next ASI at level 8?
Cheers
Valraukar wrote:
I am playing a Dragonborn vengeance paladin and I am in a party right now with a life cleric, a rogue thief who specialises in charisma, and a barbarian. The cleric has high wisdom and is proficient in a lot of the wisdom abilities, the thief has performance and deception and likes roleplaying conversations with the NPCs, and the barbarian specialises in survival and animal handling. I would have preferred if the thief had put more points into intelligence instead of charisma but I’m not going to tell him how to play his character. So that leave me to pick where I should specialise to help my group out the best.
You said that intelligence and related skills are useless for a paladin, but I don’t want to have a party with no one who has any intelligence related ability proficiencies.
Is it still a bad idea to prioritise intelligence over wisdom and take a background that gives me proficiency in intelligence related abilities (I was thinking sage). I haven’t rolled for my character yet so I don’t know how bad I would be at wisdom if I chose intelligence instead.
Noctaem wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Any thoughts on what overall build might synergize best with oathbreaker? At first i was leaning polarm mastery/sentinel, on the theory of getting easy reaction and bonus attacks to stack the damage aura on, but the heavy feat investment seems problematic. The sample polearm build suffers with con 13 for most of its life, and never gets above 18 cha, which seems like a waste for oathbreakers and their cha to damage aura. Would a less feat intensive two hander or sword and board build be a better fit for what oathbreaker offers?
Is dual wielding a viable option?
I was thinking variant human for the feat and start as fighter for con save and fighting style before swapping to Pala perminantly.
I would have the same proficiencies so no worry aout gears but I would be behind in getting the Pala levesl though, so slower to get extra attack, IBS, etc.
It would end up with the Pala have 3 attacks of 2d8+5
Compared to greatsword 2 attacks of 3d6+5 (rerolling 1 and 2s)
Halberd 2 atacks 1d10+1d8+5 and 1 at 1d4+1d8+5 (with rerolls) and extra OAs
Sword and board 2 attacks 2d8+7.
DW also gets an extra +1AC from the feat. (and another +1 for having a second fighting style but everyone could get a level in fighter for that)
There seems to be a consensus that if you can unsheath and attack in one round you can also sheath and cast as well. This would mean that DW has a very minor edge over 2 handed in that I would be able to use offhand to cast bonus action spells while still getting main hand attacks. I say "very minor" as most bonus action spells are V only.
The downside being that when casting a bonus action spell I'd lose 1/3 of my damage whereas Halberd loses less and Greatsword would lose none
At first glance it does look viable, sitting in the middle between S&B and 2hander, and I'm wondering if I'm missing something as no one's mentioned dual wielding.
DeDeHawkbane wrote:
- Protection: Not particularly appealing, especially in a game with feats where you can pick up other, better means of using your reaction on defense and offense. Having to be within 5 feet of whom you're protecting doesn't help its case, either, even then.
mellored wrote:
DeDeHawkbane wrote:
DeDeHawkbane wrote:
So yeah, Dexadin with short swords would work pretty well in medium armor.
Makes me wonder why defensive dualist isn't on the feat list.
It's a pretty solid feat for a dex-tank.
It's a feat from variant human so +2 stat is not an option.
Thing is stat would only be a boost at low level anyway. Eventually it would get maxed and a feat would be needed to increase damage further. Taking a feat later would mean missing out on +2 stat so I was trying to see if I could get by with just the one 'free' feat from varian human.
I guess I have some thinking to do. Thanks for the comments and advice
It's definitely a stronger feat for a level 1 than if costing you an ABI. The greater average damage of the d8 weapons and the +1 AC are great to have at such a low level.
DeDeHawkbane wrote:
mellored wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Is healer worth considering as a feat, if nobody else in the party is taking it? compared to inspiring leader it costs money to use, but provides more hp and scales faster. That it is real hp instead of temps is a trade off - can't heal preemptively, but stacks with other sources of temp hp. plus theres the auto hp when reviving, which, yeah, lay on hands can do, but it saves you points of that ability, and is available as a back up if you run out.
Seems like it might fall under a similar category to the bless spell - paladins arent the best party member to use it, but if nobody else has it, its worth doing, particularly if your party is lacking a primary healer in general. Or at the very least it seems sufficiently thematically appropriate to the whole hospitilar subtheme of the vlass to be worth mentioning specifically why it isnt worth taking if indeed you dont think its a good idea.
malisteen wrote:
Thanks for that post Mellored. It explained things very well.
Well, i just read inspiring leader wrong, missed entirely that it scaled with level. Doop.
.
Im looking at playing a var human paladin with the intent to go oathbreaker (dm just letting me take it at level 3 as my vow to begin with, rather than jumping through narrative hoops, basically playing a dark knight), in a party with caster druid, sword & board str fighter, and hand crossbow dex fighter. There will be one other player, but i dont know what hes running, and in any event he changes characters frequently and cannot be relied upon for long term party dynamics. Only house rules are no multiclassing (first time dm, wants to keep the capabilities of the pcs relatively straight forward, I guess? didn't feel like arguing, esp as he's letting me play oathbreaker).
.
Im not sure what direction to take the build in, however, apart from eventually wanting to max atk and cha while starting with con 14, so two feats total (prob at levels 1 and 4), and resiliant con at level one if at all. Without res con, that means an 8 in either wis or non attack str/dex. I've been waffling between support (dex based, sword & board, inspiring leader, and either resilient con or healer - and I do not anticipate another pc taking healer), two handed damage (str based, great sword, resilient con and great weapon mastery), and melee control (str based, halberd, polearm mastery and sentinel). Does anyone have any advice on which of the three general concepts might have better long term synergy with the party or the oathbreaker features?
malisteen wrote:
BRJN wrote:
So correct me if I'm wrong but can't a dual wielding paladin do something no other paladin can do (well..... Sort of): divine smite three times in one action?
I feel like dual wielding would wreck potentially, even without the appropriate fighting style. I thought they didn't give paladins the fighting style so every paladin didn't just dual wield.
Hell, isn't that the only way for a dexadin to do more damage than a two handed paladin?
am I missing something? Admittedly it would PROBABLY be better to cast a smite spell with your bonus action, but still. If you had two magic swords or daggers or whatever you could be pretttttty dangerous.
Hecetv wrote:
i need some tips, we are playing from 3 months once a week in a really really really hard campain, 9 Pc already died. Now i die again, and in the groupe there are an open hand monk, a life cleric, a grappler fighter and a very blaster pewpew wild magic sorcerer. So i need a really hard tanky guy, and i have 3 ideas:
Human( variant)
Lv 1 STR 10, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, sentinel
Lv 4 STR 10, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, sentinel
Lv 8 STR 10, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, sentinel, medium armor master.
So we have better initiative, dex is a better save than str, better skill check on dex, better ranged option. We can fight with a light finesse weapon + shield and in some case with 2 light finesse weapon. The CA is 15( half plate) + 3 dex + 2 shield = 20
Half Orc
Lv 1 STR 17, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15
Lv 4 STR 17, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15, sentinel
Lv 8 STR 18, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, sentinel
Considering we have Plate, the CA is the same 18 + 2 from shield = 20, we have better survivability for renteless endurance, maybe more damage because we can swap from 1 handed long sword + shield to 2 handed long sword.
Human(variant )
Lv 1 STR 16, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, sentinel
Lv 4 STR 18, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, sentinel
Lv 8 STR 18, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, sentinel, polearm master
One hand-quarterstaff + shield
More mapcontrol, but less options.
Now what do you think is the best for my group( i like play a party-friendly PC)? And what Oath i can chose?
DeDeHawkbane wrote:
mellored wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
So... I may be missing something, but it seems like one of the bigger arguments in the favor of a Strength-based Paladin is the ability to use Polearm Master with a Quarterstaff + Shield and Duelist . Especially for an Oathbreaker, as that extra attack (and reaction) each gain the +Cha and 1d8 from Improved Divine Smite. You don't have GWM's damage boost, but you're less likely to overkill, and the guaranteed bonus action attack allows for extra spike damage through a 3rd (or more) Smite in a nova round.
Also notable about it is that it allows a Paladin|Sorcerer build to function with both focuses - Holy Symbol for Paladin spells on the shield, and Staff as the Arcane Focus. This is a notable improvement over 2-handed Strength builds (Polearm or Maul/Greatsword/Greataxe) in that it doesn't give up its opportunity attack/require equipment juggling silliness or War Caster by RAW (with some limitations). A Dex based Paladin|Sorcerer is also attractive in that gains the same 20 AC (with shield) while having much better initiative, however, War Caster becomes a feat tax (if a somewhat-useful one) if you want to be able to cast quickened Sorcerer spells with your bonus action. Either way seems like it could work well... the question ends up being where to break the levels. 6 Paladin| 14 Sorcerer is nice, though PM/Dual Wielding Oathbreakers may find the extra +Cha mod on 3-5 (if reaction, if Haste) attacks per round attractive enough to give up a caster level.
One point for another build of Strength-based Paladin - Great Weapon Master's cleave-style bonus action attack triggers with any weapon. Against low level mobs, it's easy enough to use a Longsword/Shield to reduce overkill and maintain AC, switching to a two-handed weapon for greater damage against solo enemies. This works especially well for Vengeance Paladins, as they can take less attrition-damage through the day by keeping their shield out, reserving their Channel Divinity to use alongside the -5/+10 (AC-permitting) with a Greatsword about bosses. Both Defensive and Protection styles will function with either weapon - both work nicely (especially the latter) with DMG marking rules. Kinda neat feel to it, in that you only go "ultimate" against deserving foes. If the rest of the party is somewhat low-op, this gives you the opportunity for cool moments without too often stealing the show.
Interesting aside: aside from Bards stealing the spell, Elemental Weapon can only be maxed by a Paladin multiclassing for more caster levels. In some cases, especially in the case of elemental damage vulnerabiliy, and if you read Elemental Affinity as boosting the damage increase, a Paladin|Sorcerer build can potentially see more damage out of this than in Haste.
Certainly, there's quite a lot of value in that build. No one's arguing against the benefits of greater initiative, Dex-skills (even Stealth, if you're using Draconic Resilience), Dex-saves. And Inspiring Leader holds decent value in the worst case, and considerable value in parties that rest often (and don't have THP competition from other sources).
I'm simply putting forth the argument that it's not the *only* way to have an effective build - I think Strength is often dismissed for its lack of intrinsic riders, without full consideration of some of the build paths it opens up. Particularly in the case of multiclassing.
Yes, as far as Dexterity is concerned Assassin-Paladins are incredible damage dealers in the abstract; my guess, though, is that while you'll be feeling awesome when you surprise a foe... most of the rest of the party will just be waiting until they can play, too. Kinda the perpetual problem/Catch-22 with stealth builds - if the party doesn't optimize around it, it's not always friendly to the group dynamic. If they do... encounters get reshaped with that in mind. I'm sure others' play experience varies, just my personal thought.
To everyone in the thread - this guide has been an enjoyable read, especially for theory-crafting builds. Paladins seem to have a lot of nifty abilities and options in this edition. Thanks!
Imho the straladin quarterstaff + shield polearm master and sentinel is the best choice to go.
3 attacks 2d8 and 1d4 + str + magic bonus + smite DMG and the bigbad guy cant escape from you. Devotion and vengeance oaths are the best for thia build.
Don't forget Oathbreaker for another +Cha/hit. Vengeance is a bit weaker here, as it competes with your bonus action economy. Devotion... I'm missing what makes that useful, I suppose.
Sentinel is nifty, but the question is, where do you fit it in? Hard to justify missing a +2 Cha/+2 Str boost for it. With Polearm Master that's 5 ABI/Feats already; Variant Human can squeeze one more in, but given that you don't see the last one until level 19 anyway, it's simply not a factor for practical play. Basically, you'd have to give up 2 Cha for it.
To say nothing of the aesthetic oddity of 'shield and quarterstaff'. Mechanical benefits are nice, but if I can't imagine myself looking cool while doing it than what was even the point?
I think polearm master staff and shield is going to cause arguments about RAW vs RAI.
RAW does allow it but the idea of swinging the weapon around so the other end hits and the fact that the other weapons listed are 2 handers suggests that RAI is polearm master is for 2 handed fighiing.
(On a personal note. The idea of a Pala runing around hitting things with a staff just feels wrong.)
If you're going to go that high into a caster class stick to slinging spells, use cantrips and keep the DS slots for other spells.
If you're not going for level 11 Pala for IDS then don't bother with melee. You're missing out on 1d8 on every swing every turn in exchange for NO extra spell slots for DS (lvl 20 pala gets 4/3/3/3 slots, a 6 Pala/14 Sorc gets 4/3/3/3. BTW the most anyone can get is 4/3/3/3/).. Also DS caps at level 4 slots so higher level slots from a caster class mean nothing.
(please check my math)
A 6/14 with 1 handed Staff, duelist and polearm master is going to be doing 2x(1d6+7)+1d4+7 (31) with extra OAs. (well with variant human could be doing this at level 5 with a good str roll or 8 using the points system. So for a few levesl it will outdamage normal sword and board)
A level 11 pala with 1 hander and duelist will be doing 2x(2d8+7) (32) and they have a spare feat for something else.
Meanwhile a level 11 pala with Halberd, fighting style and polarm master will be doing . 2x(1d10+1d8+5)+(1d4+1d8+5) (42) with extra OAs, rerolls and 2 less AC
On top of that you'll probably have a hard time finding an arcane focus staff that gives bonuses to hitting people with it.
As far as swapping equipment around for casting. Remember that there are other options to Staffs. Personally I don't see a problem with saying that with the shield strapped firmly to the arm the Pala can hold a Crystal in his hand at the same time. Maybe have it attached to a cord that's wrapped around his hand so he can't drop it. Also maybe have a house rule that a shield used like that takes longer to don and doff due to the extra straps.
Or come up with a price, or roleplay it out, for an extra long arcane focus staff that you put a Halberd head onto.
BUT at the end it's down to what you think will be fun and interesting. Just accept that, like my DW Pala, you won't be amasing.
Edit:
Imo if you're going to dual class Pala and a caster then going warlock is a better option. There's a ncie RP synergy with Oath of ancients and fey patron, as well as Oathbreaker and fiend.
Pact of the Blade would fit nicely with the idea of a melee caster Pala. While Pact of the Tome would give you access to cantrips like spare the dying which would compliment the healing side of Pala.
You will miss out on getting level 6+ spell slots, however that doesn't matter if you're looking at using them for DS and you get a bunch of them recharging every short rest so could potential end up with more total spells cast each day.
You could go to level 11 Pala or level 12 Warlock and get extra damage to weapon hits. (If you go Pact of the Blade) so you're not lossing out on that extra damage on every hit because of dual classing.
An 8 Pala, 12 Warlock (or 12/8) would, imo, be a very intresting and fun mix. 8/12 would be a bit more damage as you'd get level 5 spells and a single level 6 one cast a day spell, 12/8 more healy as you'd be able to get revivify and remove curse.
Kostoglot wrote:
If you are going human-variant oathbreaker staff & shield, polearm & sentinel, should you consider three levels of warlock for cha-based shillelagh (along with two recharging lv2 smites, devil's sight to make the oathbreaker's darkness more useful/abusable, a patron feature, and of course agonizing eldritch blast)? Assuming you wanted the feat combo asap, then as far as I can tell that puts you -1 to hit in melee from levels 8 to 15, in exchange for +2 (or more) cha from levels 11 to 19. Or you could delay sentinel and get one or more cha boosts before it. Regardless, you lose one of your stat boosts, but since you no longer have to bump strength at all you save two, and come out one ahead, with an open final boost at level 19 (paladin 16).
If you did so, when would be the right time to start taking warlock levels? Level 2 or 3, so that you could get your cha to hit sooner? After extra attack? Aura of protection? Aura of hate? I'm guessing you'd want to have all three warlock levels by level 10, so that by 11 at the latest (paladin 8) you'd be boosting cha and using it to hit in melee or range.
It's actually just wonky enough of a build that I'd consider trying to play it, if my DM allowed multiclassing. Oh, well.
rough sketch:
Race: Human (Variant)
Background: Knight
Alignment: LE
Oath: Oathbreaker
Patron: Fiend
Pact: Tome
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, shillelagh (at warlock 3), whatever else you like
Proficient skills: Persuasion (CHA), History (INT), Perception (WIS), Athletics (STR), Intimidate (CON)
Proficient tools: Gaming set (one type)
Armor: Chain mail (Lv. 1) -> Plate (as soon as can afford it), Shield
Weapon: Quarterstaff (arcane focus)
Other: Holy Symbol (Emblem, on Shield)
Point buy array: 15, 15, 14, 10, 8, 8
Level Progression: Paladin 7, Warlock 3, Paladin +10
Fighting Style: Dueling
Level Progression: Paladin 7, Warlock 3, Paladin +10
Lv. 1: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 16, Polearm Master
Lv. 4: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 16, Polearm Master, Sentinel
Lv. 11: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 18, Polearm Master, Sentinel
Lv. 15: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 20, Polearm Master, Sentinel
Lv. 19: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 20, Polearm Master, Sentinel, Resilient (Con)
Alt Progression: Paladin 1, Warlock 3, Paladin +16
Lv. 1: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 16, Polearm Master
Lv. 7: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 18, Polearm Master
Lv. 11: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 18, Polearm Master, Sentinel
Lv. 15: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 20, Polearm Master, Sentinel
Lv. 19: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 20, Polearm Master, Sentinel, Resilient (Con)
* alt version operates as more of a typical, EB spam warlock at low levels, just with better AC from starting paladin
and the ability to bop a mob on the head for getting too close, transitioning to melee after picking up the paladin's
extra attack at level 8.
malisteen wrote:
DeDeHawkbane: Don't forget about the versatility spell points offer the Paladin Sorcerer, or the option to recharge spell slots. Also, meta magic - you can give up your bonus attack to hit/smite with two attacks, and follow it up with a quickened inflict (likely better options), or twin one of your concentration buffs onto an ally as well before battle. If the problem for you is giving up IDS - don't! you could go 11 Pally 9 Sorc with relatively little opportunity cost vs the 20 Paladin.
And certainly, staff + shield is an oddity... so, reflavor it. You fight defensively with a staff... or, with a duskwood sword, the symbol of a fey patron who's court you serve.
And remember, a low strength, high Dex build (nimble weakling) isn't exactly the iconic Paladin either - so, it's all in how you play the character.
Certainly, too, your DM can allow you whatever they want in terms of focus rules - just keep in mind that these are often house rules that not all players have access to, and therefore may not be as relevant to a guide (if good practical considerations otherwise).
Mello: Oh, I agree. I think it's a build that will excel in most circumstances, and you can't really go wrong with. Perfect for AL or pickup games, too. My main problem is it does very much make me want to slip in some Rogue levels :D
You're right. I was forgetting to take the Sorc bonuses into account.
I still think Warlock has a better thematic synergy though.
Of course the house rules will depend on the DM but if a holy symbol on a shield counts as a focus so I see no problem with saying other foci can count that way too.
It's a shame that Warlock pact weapon doesn't count as a focus, that would solve the issue.
I can't find any rules on creating a focus. The fact that there are so many foci and so cheap means there must be a way of turning a mundane item into a focus. Just need to know how easy it is to find people who can do it, how long it takes and costs. None of which could me that bad as the cost is 5gp - 20gp so they must be about as difficult to make as a weapon.. (Quaterstaff, 2gp. Focus staff, 5gp. So it takes 3gp to create a focus)
So find a pole of the right length and durability, find someone to turn it into a focus then take it to a smith to add a blade to it and you have an axe, mace, halberd, etc that's also a focus.
First off, thank you for the work that you've put into creating this guide. It has proven invaluable in creating the Vengeance Paladin that I will begin playing in a couple of weeks.
That said, I would greatly appreciate a bit of input from the collective wisdom of this thread's followers.
We rolled stats and my values are: 15, 16, 13, 13, 8, 14. My initial plan is to go with 16 Str, 8 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 13 Wis, 15 Cha. I will be playing a Variant Human and planned to put my bonuses into Wis and Cha to bring them to even numbers. I will be taking Polearm Master and my character will wield a glaive.
I am wondering if it would be more useful to apply one of those Variant Human '+1s' to Con instead of Wis, with the intention of picking up Resilient (Con) at 4th or 8th level?
I am set on placing my 8 in Dex, and have built my backstory around that low value (the character was falsely imprisoned and sadistically tortured, leading to his pledge to a vengeance god; the scars from the torture have restricted his movements, hence his compromised Dex). While I see this guide suggests dumping Intelligence, I simply do not enjoy playing characters of below average intelligence, all the more so if they are to act as a driving force in the party.
So, what do you folks think? Give up an even Wisdom from creation in order to have a better Con later in the game, or just stick with my initial plan and forego Resilient (Con) in favor of boosting Str or taking Sentinel earlier?
A "driving force" in D&D personality-wise is a high Charisma score, typically. It's not like an 8 INT, if x10 to map to IQ = 80, is mentally disabled, either. An 80 IQ is on the low part of normal. I hope that persuades you to go INT 8 and put that 13 in DEX.
I wouldn't pay one bit of attention, stats-wise, to anything other than STR, CHA and CON, in that order. Your above-average WIS is pretty much just gravy.
DeDeHawkbane wrote:
Next wacky idea: a paladin/monk multi class that can use flurry and two attacks to smite four times in a single round.
Probably will never play that but it seems powerful if you can overcome the insane MAD you would need to have to multi class those two classes, and not to mention constitution to survive that long.
Sorry if it's been brought up already.
Int isn't smart vs dumb, anyway. It's a combination of book learning and ability to pick out small details in complicated puzzles (knowledge and investigation). Being impatient is enough to justify a low int score even on an otherwise smart character.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Why not a great axe then? An axe screams executioner to me more. Either is cool tho of course. Just don't see many axe Paladins I don't think.
Also I think its good on you for sticking to your guns on the 8 dex. His saves won't really be hobbled once he gets his aura anyway, or at least that will shore up a major weakness of his.
Dex is overrated :p
That's a really cool concept.
The resiliant con is handy for a Pala though not necessary for the background. I'd say that "toughened due to constant torture" and "broken body" (as shown by low dex) would cancal each other resulting in just a normal con stat. I doubt the experience would make him forget skills so he'd still know how to handle a weapon. You could even use the glaive as RP, occassionally using it as a staff to aid walking.
As for Greataxe or Greatsword for executioner. I think axe was more common in history but sword seems to be more common in fantasy so either works well.
Hecetv wrote:
I'm not arguing against putting more points in int than dex. Frankly, I may do so myself, simply because I value competence in the religion and history skills on a 'divine knight' type of character archetype purely from a role playing perspective. But I strongly disagree with the notion that an int 8 character is 'slow witted'. If anything, that would describe a character with low wisdom (Perception, insight, wis saves, low wis characters have a hard time quicky grasping a situation at hand, and are easily fooled). Wisdom covers your wits, your abiliry to understand the whole picture, make accurate judgments, and think on your feet. Int is trivia, memorization, and ability to pick out little details when you have all day to study them, all of which, for most people, comes down to focus and attention span as much or more than actual 'intelligence'.
I'm not saying 'put the points where the mechanics output the biggest numbers, then play whatever regardless', I'm just saying you shouldn't get too hung up on the names of the stats. Look at what they actually do, instead, and then tell a story that describes that effect. A low int character might be dumb, or they might just be too impatient to pick out details once they've got the overall picture. A low wis character might be foolish, or they might be too self absorbed or too blinded by their ideals to accept reality as they perceive it rather than as their preconceived notions tell them it is. A low cha character might be meek and withdrawn, or they might be so gruff and straight forward, with so little patience for manipulation of the truth, that they simply refuse to couch their words in phrasing that might manipulate others into seeing things their way- ie, bad at haggling because they start with offering what they think something is worth and refusing to budge or angle for a deal, rather than someone who is bad at haggling because they just get walked all over.
EDIT: also, you seem to have your stat scale set to previous editions, because str 16 is pretty much the strongest a generic character could be at level 1based on standard arrays and point buys, and stats in general cap out at 20 in 5e, even for the most epic of high level legendary characters. Seriously, with three 16s and only one neg modifier, your character is basically a superhero, if perhaps an inexperienced one. Which might also be affecting your perception of 8 int as 'slow witted'. I reccomend taking all your perceptions of what numbers mean in various stats, and just adjusting those numbers down by two to three points, because if you think 16 is only kinda strong, then what you're imagining for int 8 is actually probably a better description of int 5 in this edition.
Otherwise, yeah, char looks good. Honestly, I like the sword, but either sword or axe would work for the concept. If going for a 'judge and executioner' gimmick, instead of just the latter, you might even consider swapping con and wis around, getting +2 in both, instead of +3/+1, to help with insight checks for judging the guilt of those accused.
Thanks for such a well-considered response. Your argument for altering my perception of the stat scale in this edition is compelling. And while arranging my stats, my human '+1' and the Resilient feat so that my character has 14s in Wisdom and Constitution is intriguing, my DM really likes the 'tough as nails' idea so I will be sticking with the 16 Con. Besides, we will have a Knowledge Cleric in the party, so I may look to him when it comes to reading guilt or innocence in a foe.
I do wonder, though, what you think about a two level dip into Warlock at some point after Paladin 6. I am attracted to the versatility of Eldritch Blast as a ranged attack, re flavored perhaps to be Thunder or Lihjtning damage as my Paladin is a devotee of an old God of Storms and Vengeance.
I'm sure someone with a better grasp of the mechanics will be around shortly with a more detailed, char op based response, but I'm personally a big fan of a couple levels of warlock in an otherwise mostly paladin build for the versatility offered by eldritch blast, a couple recharging spell slots, and an nvocation or two. Maybe even three levels for those stylish pact boons - either a nice familiar, a cool summonable weapon, or a bunch of cantrips, includong cha-based shillelagh.
I'm especially a fan of a three level trip into warlock from levels 7 to 10 on var human oathbreakers, who already like to fight staff and shield with polarm master, who would really like fiend sight to see through their own darkness oath spell (and in the dark in general since that's an issue for humans), and who would really like the cha based attacks to free up some pressure on their stat progression (lose a boost, but save two long run since you don't have to boost strength, which frees up a feat for the polearm sentinel combo early on and con proficiency later while still maxing your now singular key stat). Losing the expanded aura range late game is sad, but considering that aura of hate can be a double edged sword, that's not the worst thing that could happen. Plus fiend patron warlock just seems like an excellant fit for oathbreakers, thematically.
I like a couple warlock levels on pther palasins as well, but again more from a narrative angle - say, a sentinel druid dipping fey pact for a green knight feel.
The summoned weapon is quite appealing. We've decided the character is a member of an order devoted to vengeance, often behalf of common folk who have suffered abuses of power by the nobility. As such it is a clandestine organization and his cover is that of an itinerant journeyman blacksmith. Having his iconic 'Executioner's Sword' hidden in a pocket dimension and summonable on command would be quite useful in maintaining his cover. It's unfortunate that he won't get that ability until character level 9 if I go first with six levels of Paladin.
2 Paladin/4 Warlock/6 Paladin/8 Sorc
Human Varient 15 Str/10 Dex/14 Con/8 Int/10 Wis/16 Cha
Arcane Focus/Holy Shield : AC: 18 with Chain mail -> (15 Str for Plate when affordable) 20 AC
Feat: Polearm Mastery
2: Smites/Dueling Combat Style
3: The Fiend
4: Agonizing Blast/Devil's Sight
5: Tome: Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, Guidance
6: Sentinel
7: Oath of Vengence
8: +2 Cha
9: Extra Attack
10: Aura of Protection
11: Relentless Avenger (Half movement on OA that does not provoke OA)
12: Cha +2
13: Sorcerer Origin: Draconic (Gold/Fire)
14: Font of Magic
15: Metamagic (Quickened Spell) (Twinned Spell)
16: Elemental Adept(Fire)
18: Elemental Affinity
20: Resilient (Dex)
Spell slots @ 20: Four 1st/Three 2nd/Three 3rd/Three 4th/Two 5th/One 6th + Two 2nd level/per short rest
Spells of note: Paladin Smite Spells, Darkness, Hex, Armor of Agathys (lots of temp HP no concentration), Misty Step, Shield
I have a question about the interaction between Dark One's Blessing (temp hp = Cha + Warlock Level on enermy reduced to 0) and Armor of Agathys. Does the new temp points created by DOB override AoA or do they simply replace and keep the efffect going?
Temporary HPs don't stack.
Temporary Hit Points (phb p198)If you have temporary hit points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones. For example, if a spell grants you 12 temporary hit points when you already have 10, you can have 12 or 10, not 22.
Yeah I get what happens with THP points not stacking and your example was close to what I was asking, but as far as the effect of AoA is concerned it's duration is 1 hour and it creates a set of THP for you that has an auto-damage component when attacked. I'm asking if the THP you get from DoB would end that effect since it replaces the THP you gained from that spell or if the effect continues for one hour.
AoA: "You gain 5 temporary hit points for the duration. If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 damage. (*Scaling with spell slots used)
Does the spell end once those hit points are gone or does the spell just want there to be THP available.
Yes, the spell would end as soon as you lost the last THP from AoA. When you gain THP from Dark One's Blessing - you have the choice to keep your existing THP (and its associated damage rider) or gain the new THP.
Ah, I play in AL so it would probably be more strict on that sort of thing. Convincing people of Focus and shield are already enough of a task. I just wanted to hear someone else either confirm or refute my thoughts and you confirmed them, thanks!
Just wanted to chime in on some factors that I haven't seen mentioned much. Back in the day, ('70s, '80s) the most common weapon was the longsword. Not because it was the best, but because that is the type of magic weapon you would find.
If you focus on Dex or a polearm, and get ability score increases and feats to support those, then find a longsword Holy Avenger, you might regret your focus. Compare a quarterstaff/rapier and board paladin vs. a Flametongue/Frostbrand/Holy Avenger and board paladin and things look a lot better for the traditional path. Now in D&D 5th they say that the Holy Avenger could be any type of sword, so it is possible to find a rapier Holy Avenger (or a greatsword Holy Avenger), but you are pretty much relying on your DM changing the sword to match what you need. (Which is fine by the way. I would probably do it as a DM.)
I actually had that thought in the back of my mind when altering my plan to go with a greatsword. The blade is both more stylistically appropriate for my character and sets him up to wield a holy blade should my DM provide one.
Exactly. I'm not saying you shouldn't do any of the other stuff, I made a paladin for my son that uses a warhammer, but it should be worth mentioning in an optimization guide that some of the best weapons in the game for a paladin are swords.
Hey everyone, I posted this in the Player Help forum under it's own thread, but figured I'd slap it up here as well seeing as this thread gets a good amount of action still.
(FYI Great work Gladius!)
I just rolled 18 16 15 14 14 8, best stat line of my life!
I'm intent on playing an Oathbreaker Paladin, DM let me off the leash and I'm excited about the character concept.
- Campaign starts at level 9. I'm taking all 9 levels in paladin, and will likely NOT multiclass @ subsequent levels.
- Other party members include: Cleric, Bard, Sorcerer
- I'm going to play either a variant human or a half-elf.
- We start with 1 magic item, mine is a weapon (I choose what type) of Warning: gives advantage on initiative rolls, and prevents being surprised.
I need some help min/maxing this excellent stat line, hopefully that's where you come to my rescue!
I want the following at some point:
- 20 Cha
- 20 Str
- polearm master, its too much fun getting to use your reaction and bonus action with such frequency
- 1 of the 2 feats: Resilient (CON) or Inspiring leader. Also, do you think taking either of these over Sentinel is a poor choice?
I'd like some input as to which race, and which ASIs/Feats taken at which level will result in the most fearsome fallen paladin possible.
Thanks in advance!
Hello everyone,
I would like some advice on my paladin and this seemed the right place to ask for advice. I have a 7th level Half-Elf Oath of Vengeance paladin. I started out with 16 strength and 16 charisma. At level 4 I took GWM since I use a greatsword. But I didn't get a whole lot of mileage out of that feat and my hit average seemed pretty low (with only a +6 attack bonus). At level 6 our dexterity focused fighter had a +9 attack bonus (20 dex, +3 proficiency and a +1 weapon) and seemed to be hitting almost all the time, but my paladin couldn't keep up and I didn't hit all that often. So GWM didn't really serve me well and therefore I asked my DM if I could retroactively delete that feat and bump my strenght to 18 instead. He agreed and now I no longer have any feats.
At level 8 I want to increase my strength to 20 and after that I was thinking on my best course of action. I read somewhere on these forums that GWM gets diminishing returns as you start to do more and more damage per hit, so does that mean the feat becomes less powerful as you gain levels and become stronger? GWM is rated gold for greatsword users in this guide, but seeing as feats are a precious commodity for paladins, I really want to pick the right one. Right now I think bumping charisma to 18 at level 12 seems like a safe choice, or should I take feat at that level? If so, which one? A boring, if rather useful feat, seems to be resilience (constitution), but my constitution is even now, so I won't get much out of the +1 constitution.
All in all, I'm looking for advice on which sole feat I can take with my paladin and at what point in his adventuring career I should pick it up. If I want to achieve 20 strength and 20 charisma, I'll only have one choice, so it had better be a good one. There are so many cool feats for a paladin (GWM, Inspiring Leader, Sentinel, Resilience, maybe even Magic Initiate for Eldritch Blast to have a better ranged option) which makes chosing only one excrutiatingly difficult... So all help is appreciated!
Many thanks in advance!
I too am curious as to the real benefit of Great Weapon Master. My Vengeance Paladin will have to make a similar choice to the poster above. And given that I am playing him as a cross between the Punisher and Judge Dredd, I wonder as well if Tavern Brawler might give a better bang for my buck in terms of roleplaying the Punisher's use of myriad items (and creatures) as weapons or shields.
Logain08 wrote:
You can kill yourself trying to make Advancement decisions with a Paladin. GWM is a really solid feat... but so is upping Str...heck raising Cha is great, and Shield master kicks butt.... Resiliency helps make sure your Hunters Mark or Bless doesn't go away....etc....
But the reason you can drive yourself crazy, is because they are all a solid choice. Which means you will never pick the 'best' choice... but it also means that whatever you pick will be pretty good. So...what do you *want* to pick? How do you envision your character?
GWM helps with extra attacks.... but you need to be careful about the -5/+10 ability. Only use it when you need a fairly low To-Hit number (like 8 or less, definitely 6 or less). Things like advantage (Vow Enmity) and Bless really help with this. You are correct, the more damage you do normally, the less likely it will be helpful
I don't want to level dip with my paladin since that would only delay my spell progression (I want haste as soon as possible) and some cool paladin features such as improved divine smite and at level 15, Soul of Vengeance. Also, not unimportantly, it would delay the points at which I would get either an ability score increase or a feat. So while I get the perks of going for two warlock levels, I don't want to go that way with my character. It also wouldn't fit thematically with my character :-)
The earliest I will get a feat is at level 12, but I'm seriously considering just raising charisma at that point: better saving throws for me and my party and higher spell save difficulty. Making choices for a paladin in this respect seems really difficult compared to some other classes...
I know there are a lot of very good feats for paladins and great weapon users. Our group has a melee (dex) fighter, a bladelock and a druid. So maybe I should go more support. If I go support, resilience (constitution) seems like a very good choice to maintain spells like bless on the party. On the other hand, I want my character to be able to hold his own in a fight and to actually kill enemies as well (after all, I chose the Vengeance Oath for a reason): cast haste on myself and go to town. In that respect, GWM seems a more flavorful choice. But I will only be able to get a feat quite late in my adventuring career (if I don't kick the bucket before that, of course, DM has a habit of throwing nasty challenges our way) and I still wonder about the possible diminishing returns of GWM...
I concede there are no *best* choices, but maybe there are *better* choices considering the circumstances. All in all, I find the paladin to be extremely fun and versatile in play, I love it! :-)
I'm playing a Vengeance paladin myself. A mountaindwarf on a quest to help his church get back on track. Currently only lvl 5, but I'm also thinking and planning a bit ahead. I don't think I'll take GWM at lvl 8. A wise person once said that the more damage you do, the more chance of hitting you want. I feel that I'm already good at bashing, I want to be useful in some other way as well. Perhaps raising Char to 18, raising Aurasaves, or getting something like Inspiring leader, or Healer feat, or something else that gives my character a new dimension, showing that he has grown and changed somehow.
Logain08 wrote:
GildurSharpaxe wrote:
I also have str 18, can raise char to 18 as well, or take resilient Con, to get prof in Con saves and a nice round number at last (16). Or as I said, something completely different. Thinking about magic initiate, and taking something totally new that gives me a new dimension
Coredump00 wrote:
I would consider adding Sorcerer to the multiclass options. full caster gives more smites and quicken and twined spell can be very useful for self buffing.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Logain08 wrote:
Patron1972 wrote:
Updated with the Elemental Evil Player's Companion races. And some more multiclassing stuff.
Hi Guys,
So I have two questions,
1) How should I pick my stats
My DM is super nice and said that we can roll for our stats and we can use what we roll, the point buy or standard array. I rolled the stats below for a Dragonborn and I have comparisons for what I could get if I used the point buy or standard scores instead.
Point Buy Standard Stats Rolled Stats
16 (14+2) Str 16 (14+2) Str 18(16+2) Str
10 Dex 12 Dex 12 Dex
14 Con 13 Con 14 Con
8 Int 8 Int 9 Int
10 Wiz 10 Wiz 12 Wiz
16 (15+1) Cha 16 (15+1) Cha 14 (13+1) Cha
The rolled stats are pretty good, and would allow me to have +5 Str at level 4, but I end up with less Cha. I could also take the 14 in Cha and 13 in Con for a potential future Resilience (Con) feat later and give me the chance to make my Int 10. As it stands I have one feat to spare, and if I take Resilience (Con) with how I have laid out my stats above, making my 14 con become 15 Con wouldn’t be useful.
2) Find Steed
The spell says that you can summon a mastiff as a steed. Being medium size, I wouldn’t be able to ride a mastiff, so would it be reasonable to summon it and have it as a fighting companion? I think that since it takes a level 2 spell slot (which I have only 2 at level 5) and the stats of a mastiff not being very strong (about equivalent of a bad level 1 character) it wouldn’t be over powered, but would be helpful for perception checks or scouting. Another possibility would be to summon a Warhorse and have it be in combat too.
Let me know what you think, I'm looking forward to your advice
I'd say your rolled stats are pretty darn good. Instead of a 16/16 STR/CHA split, you're at 18/14, which means you're not at all behind the point buy. And at early levels it's better to have more STR anyway. As for INT, I wouldn't bother. It's dead weight.
As for the mastiff, I don't see how that wouldn't work. Nothing says you have to be able to ride it.
GladiusLegis wrote:
If you were going 2 handed weapon in a 2 person campaign. Would you go +1 AC or Great Weapon Fighter?
+1 AC gives the versitility of it always being on, in the event you have to go range weapon. Or if you ever bust out shield and sword.
what's the other person?
and how does your DM rule greatweapon + smites (reroll smites)?
Yeah I can reroll smite and hunters mark...etc...
He may be a sorcerer or druid. Not sure yet.
if he's a sorcerer, i'd go +1AC. your going to be taking more then your normal amount of attacks.
if he's a druid, i would go great weapon. he'll either tank, control, or heal, leaving you more free to deal damage.
or just play whichever you think is more fun.
mellored wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
OnionDruid wrote:
I was wondering whether the Abjure Enemy channel divinity feature of the Oath of Vengeance is actually as bad as this guide says. I would agree it is inferior to the Vow of Enmity option, but I would argue it has more uses than the guide claims. I see Abjure Enemy as a good crowd control option for the Vengeance paladin in certain situations. It has a range of 60 feet, so it could be used to target an annoying flying enemy from afar, removing it from play for an entire minute if it fails its save. Plenty of flying fiends in the MM and some of them lack decent ranged options. I think it's useful to give your group time to deal with other enemies you have to deal with before you tackle the foe you targeted with Abjure Enemy. Although a major downside is that Abjure Enemy uses up your action comparad to only the bonus action that Vow of Enmity requires.
What are some other people's thoughts on Abjure Enemy? Has anyone used it before in actual play? I only used the Vow of Enmity so far, but in the combats I faced so far with my paladin, I'm beginning to see some uses for Abjure Enemy.
Vow of Enmity is still the superior option in most circumstances, but Abjure Enemy certainly has more uses, I would say, than the guide implies.
jaappleton wrote:
mellored wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
jaappleton wrote:
mattaddhall wrote:
mellored wrote:
WanderingBard wrote:
I've noticed that many, if not all, of the Smite spells (Thunderous Smite, for example) don't scale up with spell slots.
Is this intentional? Is this an oversight? Is it designed to prevent me from stacking Smites, like doing a Lv4 Divine Smite, for 5d8 and then doing a Lv4 Thunderous Smite on top of it?
I have found Tyr to be a great diety for a Vengeance Paly....
GladiusLegis wrote:
Or strength, for those who TWF using handaxes or longswords.
Could you please not quote such a huge block of text?
He just means they don't get the two weapon fighting fighting style which is a specific ability. Page 84. Your options are defense, dueling, great weapon, and protection.
Also dueling specifically doesn't interact with two weapon fighting.
You can actually choose to use dexterity or strength with finese weapons.
Benderover wrote:
OnionDruid wrote:
Benderover wrote:
Has anyone played a campaign where the DM considers the glaive as a polearm/sword? Or has anyone thought of that to attempt at keeping the polearm master feat and still get use of the holy avenger?
Mrsilvertaurus wrote:
I consider this the only difference between the Halberd and the Glaive. Halberd qualifies as both Polearm and Axe, Glaive qualifies as both Polearm and Sword.
For the 5e can you use other weapons that aren't listed? Short spears are pole arms and one handed so couldn't you use a shield and a short spear and get the feat bonus from polearm and the save from shields?
Mrsilvertaurus wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
The Dragonborn in that example only has 4 skills.
Everyone else gets 5 because they're some sort of race with a bonus skill. (Half-Elf gets 6.)
Logain08 wrote:
Changed some spell ratings. Seeing a few of them differently now.
GladiusLegis wrote:
I think Wrathful Smite might even be skyblue. Consider this: it takes an action and an ability check (wisdom) to escape from the frightened condition imposed by Wrathful Smite. Combine this with the fact that the frightened condition imposes disadvantage on ability checks while the source of fear is within line of sight. This means that once WS succeeds a creature either has to suffer through the condition or choose to waste its action to make a check with disadvantage to get rid of the frightened condition.
I used this with my paladin once in a battle with two giants. I used WS on one of them, while the rest of my group focused its attacks on the other. 'My' giant failed its saving throw against WS and was useless for the rest of the battle. So after we dealt with its companion, we could unleash on the other one. Pretty useful since giants hit like a truck (we were level 6 at the time).
Sorry for the double post, but I was wondering if this combination works:
Cast find steed, get yourself a warhorse as a buddy. Go into combat on your warhorse, as a vengeance paladin, cast haste. Due to share spells, the warhorse is also under the effects of haste. Your buddy now has a speed of 120 feet and can use disengage as its extra haste action on your turn. So what do you do? You charge into combat, and you attack your enemy while sitting on your warhorse. Your warhorse also gets to attack. You use your haste attack to attack once again, while your horse uses its haste action to disengage. Withdraw from combat without OAs. Most monsters won't be able to close the distance in one round, unless they have strong ranged options. Seems a pretty good hit-and-run tactic for paladins under certain circumstances (you need enough room to do this and of course this doesn't work on flying monsters, but when it does I think it's brilliant). Thoughts?
Are Great Weapons Master and Polearm Master redundant? Both give a bonus attack, but under different scenarios - it seems that between the two, you'd get a bonus attack just about every turn.
Basically, I think I can pick three feats from between Sentinel, Polearm Master, Great Weapons Master, and Resilience (CON). Sentinel seems like a must, but I'm on the fence between the others. How useful is Resilience? At a certain point, you're going to add your CHA bonus to saving throws anyway - not sure if spending a feat for +1 CON and the proficiency is worth it, especially since I don't know how much I'll be trying to concentrate on spells while fighting.
TB0NE wrote:
mellored wrote:
I think you're giving yourself stat bonuses with ASI at each level opportunity which isn't possible. You only get the +1 to 2 stats and the feat and skill when you create your character. Each ASI after that is paladin based and you can either to do the +2, the +1/+1, or a feat at the each ASI level (4,8, etc.)
Li
Nautarch wrote:
TB0NE wrote:
Nautarch wrote:
mellored wrote:
TB0NE wrote:
mellored wrote:
TB0NE wrote:
They can be fairly effective. Having a consistent bonus action attack gives you another opportunity every round to smite, and Lv. 11+ the attack makes for another instance of IDS.
It's also one of the main ways (other than Polearm Master) to make Divine Favor or Hunter's Mark work out as a net positive vs. just using the 1st-level slots to smite.
An interesting issue seems to have cropped up on several boards that doesn't seem to have a consensus response. One person has attempted to tweet to the game designers, but there hasn't been a response yet.
The issue surrounds the problem of casting a smite spell (thunderous smite, wraithful smite, branding smite, etc.) while mounted on your Find Steed. Does the Steed also get the benefit of a smite spell option? Does it just trigger once on either the steed's or the paladin's attack? Does only the paladin get it?
Below are some of the discussions to review, but was wondering what some paladin-focused folks thought.
I think it's pretty clear that only the Paladin gets to smite with the spell. I don't see how it can even be a discussion.
The people who want smite spells to work with both Paladin + Steed are basing it entirely on the Range: Self entries of those spells. However, Range: Self does NOT mean that you are the target of the spell. Otherwise, you'd be considered the target of Burning Hands or Cone of Cold (which are also Range: Self), when that is clearly not the case. Also look at the descriptions of those smite spells and they explicitly refer to the target as the enemy you hit.
@GladiusLegis: You might want to note in the guide that Paladins require Strength 13 to multiclass, which is a disadvantage for Dex-based Paladins.
Also, you might enjoy my small mounted paladin thread if you haven't seen it. Lance + Shield + Heavy Armor Master is really great.
A beastmaster 15 / paladin could allow his beast to smite.
GladiusLegis wrote:
In scanning over your Human Oath of Vengeance Polearm Master/Sentinel build, the first thing that jumps out at me is that low Constitution mod (+1 from levels 1 through 15). It makes me wonder about the survivability of this build in practice. With an AC of 16 (18 after acquiring plate), this guy is going to get hit pretty often. With Sentinel, he's practically begging to be hit! Looking over your spell selections, I'm really not seeing a lot of damage mitigation in this build as a whole besides Lay on Hands and Aura of Protection. Without a greater level of investment in healing spells, this guy seems like a bit of a glass cannon to me for a frontliner (compare it to, say, an optimized human Barbarian with Polearm Master / Sentinel). Mind you that this is just a first impression from someone who hasn't actually played this build; I'm just looking at a 4th level version of this build and noticing that it only has 32 HP (just 1 more than our 4th level halfling rogue). I'd love to have you explain to me why this is not a real problem in practice.
If it bothers you that much, just take Resilient (CON) at 1st level, and then build your Polearm Master/Sentinel from there like any other race would.
But at the same time, the value of an extra +1 CON modifier is much greater at higher levels anyway. Your Lv. 4 Paladin would only have 4 more HPs going from +1 to +2. Not exactly make or break there.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
I see it being a little bit of a problem past Lv. 10, but at the same time I'd rather prioritize the build's core feats and getting that STR to 20 ASAP, both of which help you and your party kill enemies faster. And dead enemies do no damage.
The Polearm Master + Sentinel combo also keeps enemies with 5 ft. reach out of your reach, so they can't attack you. So that's actually really good defensively, too.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Thanks for the guide!
I just wanted to ask, don't you think Tough feat is at least worth mentioning? Probably by your logic (offence>defence) this feat shouldn't be colored greater than purple, but I have an impression, that it's always nice to have some extra hit points, especially since (as far as I know) there is no way to kill a character in D&D Next without reducing him to 0 hp first.
Casper255 wrote:
Nautarch wrote:
Casper255 wrote:
I do not recommend Tough for a Paladin at all. Feat space is limited since you're a MAD class, and taking Tough over the likes of Resilient (CON)? Or Inspiring Leader? Shield Master? Great Weapon Master? I think not.
Even if I had the space, I'd never take it over +2 CON unless my CON was already at 20 (which for a Paladin will happen, oh, if you get lucky and roll three 18s to start; otherwise never).
I'm not saying Tough is a bad feat. What I'm saying is that there's so many choices that are straight up better that Tough shouldn't even register, especially on a class whose feat/ASI space is rather limited to begin with.
Nautarch wrote:
IMO tough is a bad feat. Not very bad, but still bad.
Savage attacker is a very bad feat.
mellored wrote:
Even with that fix, I'd still think it would need a +1 STR or DEX to go with it.
GladiusLegis wrote:
In the multiclassing section you say that you can use Warlock short rest spells to power your Divine Smite. The feature however explicitly states that you can only expend paladin spell slots, which makes this dip a little less good.
Apologies if this has been discussed before.
svendj wrote:
svendj wrote:
Good. OP, perhaps you can reference this ruling somewhere in the guide.
svendj wrote:
jaappleton wrote:
svendj wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
It's fine. I just added a note + sentence to the end of the Warlock MC part about that.
So.... looking for some advice...
I have a Sheild using Paladin with Dueling fighting style. I recently picked up Hazirawn and have worked out an 'agreement' with the sentient greatsword. (Which does 4D6+2 damage, with my Str 4D6+6 damage) Most of the DMs in the area seem okay with the agreement, so that isn't a concern (AL play)
I am now 6th level and approaching 7th. In the past I have not found a good reason to MC out of Paladin..... but now with the GS I am thinking about a level of FIghter to pick up GWF. It would up the damage from an average of 20 to an average of 22.67 per hit. And it would bump my DIvine Smites from 9hp to 10.5hp. (Assuming GWF applies to Smites...)
While it doesn't bump the average damage a lot, it also makes it very hard to roll poorly.
Do you think the damage bump (and Second Wind) is worth delaying my Paladin class features?
Coredump00 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
I'd just ask your DM if you can retrain your Fighting Style from Dueling to GWF. Most DMs will probably at least let you do it when you next level up (the old 4e retraining rule), if not immediately.
FrogReaver wrote:
Weird, it ate one of my posts....
My Pally was Axe+Shield with Dueling. Then I got ahold of Hazirawn. Since it is a sentient weapon, "we" worked out an agreement of what we both expect out of working together. This is the agreement that the local DMs (So far) have been okay with. (Some DMs have very different ideas about how Hazirawn behaves...)
Retraining isn't an option, since it is AL play.
Coredump00 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Keep in mind you now have delayed the other features a level and will still get the level 7 ability. You also need to consider that you are delaying the level 18 increase in your auras radius
Veleria wrote:
I think Lightfoot Halfling is about equal to Half-Elf or maybe even better. The argument is that going sword and shield after the second stat bonus the dex pally is better than a str pally, simply because dex is a more useful save than str. With a shield and rapier going the dex route the halfling will have 1 less AC than a Str pally, but better saves and initiative make up for this. The dex pally can also take better skills such as stealth and is a better thieves tools user.
If you buy the argument that a dex pally is better or equal to a str pally at least for sword and shield builds, then you have to bump Lightfoot Halflings up to at Half-Elf level because rerolling 1s is better than an extra skill, elf bonuses and +1 to a single stat.
Lilika wrote:
From an optimization perspective skills should really be a near 0 value, they only real optimization benefit that a Half-Elf gets is the extra stat which will probably go to an extra con, which is probably a wash was with Lucky, but if I had to choose I would go Halfling.
Skills are VERY important. What are you even talking about?
And there's several skills not on the Paladin list that you should be dying to pick up, Perception especially. If you're DEX-based, Stealth and Acrobatics are up there. Half-Elves (and Variant Humans) who can pick up such a skill just like that have a big advantage.
You should be able to pick up 2 of those with a good custom background, I know not all dm's, don't go for them, but they are AL legal.
Mathematically Lucky comes out to be about +1/2 to hit, all ability checks and saving throws. Higher than 1/2 on easier rolls and lower than 1/2 on harder rolls, I don't think Lucky should be taken lightly.
It still doesn't match up to the full package of +2 CHA, 5 extra feet of movement, +1 extra stat point and advantage vs. sleep and charm. Acting like extra skill proficiencies are of no optimization benefit is also extremely shortsighted. And that's one small problem with Lucky: It's strongest in the easiest fights and weakest in the hardest fights.
If your making a dex pally, the +2 Dex, +1 Cha are just as good as +2 Cha, and +1 Dex, so at least for this build its probably just a +1 to con. Movement is nice from the Half-Elf, sleep and charm aren't quite as useful for a pally than other classes, due to + save and other features.
In all fairness I said that skills had close to 0 value in optimization, not no benefit. I do see your point on making up for a pretty bad set of skills available to paladins though.
The usefulness of lucky doesn't scale with easy and strong fights as much as your giving it credit, since it applies to both to hit and saving throws. For example magic users are likely to have low AC and force saving throws, while some easy monsters may have high ac and no spells.
Not so much bad class skills as only two proficiencies from class.
Lucky is solid. But it alone does not merit sky blue for the Halfling.
The simple fact that the halfling only has 1 really solid pally build probably also keeps it down as well. I still think its on par with the Half-Elf for a dex build though (I think all the issues about this are pretty out in the open now).
The one problem I am having with the dex build is the fact that there is a small chance that a Holy Avenger will drop in a sanctioned event that is either a longsword or greatsword.
I didn't think that much about Lucky till I was in a group with 2 Halfling rogues and they were rerolling 1's left and right.
Went adventuring as a level 3 Earth Genasi Paladin last Friday. Pass Without Trace really comes in handy to counter the disadvantage of your noisy armor! Plus it makes sneaking around shoulder to shoulder with the entire party, Scooby-Doo style, a lot more fun.
Was impressed with the class. I didn't think I would be since you have so few ways to utilize your bonus actions and reactions, but it's the versatility that did it for me. I went with Protection as my Fighting Style, so at all times I could function as main tank (high AC, HP and protecting adjacent party members), secondary healer (Lay on Hands), controller (Ensnaring Strike, Nature´s Wrath, grabbing) and striker (Divine Smite).
Just started a Drow Paladin (Homebrew campaign ) and I am already leaning towards the two handed way. I was just wondering if it is a viable option for still being tanky or should I not concern myself with that?
Having played a Paladin with the Protection fighting style for a couple of adventures, I think it should be rated higher than black. The guide advises to take Dueling over it, but +2 damage on a hit is certainly not by definition better than an ability you can use every turn to save a partymember from getting hit.
The feature works very well with your level 7 and 10 auras, which require your allies to be close by too. It also encourages the DM to attack you, the tank, instead of the squishies. This last effect is underrated, since you have almost no way to focus attention on you otherwise.
It's obviously useless for heavy weapon builds, but Paladins that focus more on defending should always take this over Defense or Dueling. If you really want Dueling's +2 damage bonus for the synergy with Extra Attack, one level of Fighter at 6 gets you there. For builds that use a shield, I'd rate both Protection and Dueling dark blue.
With a 1d8 weapon, Dueling represents a 26% increase in damage when you first take it at Lv. 2. Even when you get your STR to 20 it still represents a 21% increase. Killing enemies that much faster is the best defense.
Also, yeah, AoEs.
What's the point about AoE's? Simply that Protection is useless against those attacks? Or am I missing something?
Elfcrusher wrote:
If all the PCs cluster around the paladin they deserve to get blown up. You can only protect one guy, so it doesn´t make sense for the party to get into fireball formation. And that's not even mentioning that Protection also works against AoE attacks, and Aura of Warding's resistance to spell damage. So yeah, AoE is no argument.
Killing enemies is good. That´s what rogues, monks etc. are for. Keeping those alive is also good, and that's your job. Dueling doesn't do that very effectively. Protection does.
Lastly, action economy. Having a useful reaction every turn is insanely good. Since those are very hard to come by, Protection is a very competitive option.
Evasion doesn't operate on the same axis as Protection, because it works for saves against AoEs instead of giving disadvantage on attack rolls.
The number of classes you can protect are numerous. Heavy weapon fighters, rangers, barbarians, bladelocks, valor bards, melee clerics, shapeshifting druids... And that's not mentioning spellcasters and archers who got ambushed.
Agreeing with:
1) Fireball argument is lame because nobody is talking about the whole party clustering.
2) Value is party-dependent, but I'll note that so is the value of +2 damage: as the rest of the party does more damage the +2 becomes proportionally less significant, but the importance of keeping them alive increases.
Not saying black isn't the right color. I see the colors as indicating how likely something is to be a good choice, not it's goodness vs. badness.
svendj wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
The other thing is that it's +20% (again, ignoring bonus damage at 11, Smites, crits, and any other bonuses) to the weakest damage build. Keeping a more damaging ally from dropping, or even keeping a caster from having to use a turn healing or otherwise saving somebody, is potentially worth way more overall dpr. In fact, that might be a great way of looking at it: by using your reaction to protect an ally, another ally potentially gets to use an action to do damage.
But, as Gladius pointed out, there's essentially no way to model that, and it is both party and situation dependent, whereas it's pretty easy to determine that a +2 damage bonus is always a good thing. Thus the higher color.
But this is a great example of caveat emptor for all these guides. Sometimes good theorycrafters like Gladius point out subtle flaws (or advantages) in spells and abilities that really do make them strong or weak...and I always learn something I never knew from reading them...but sometimes the real rating is "Your Mileage May Vary".
Momar wrote:
Momar wrote:
Elfcrusher wrote:
mellored wrote:
OP, there are two things you're overvaluing. First, it's the frequency of OA's. Usually you make maybe one OA per adventure, which has 4-6 fights, each having 3-5 rounds. Even if you get to use Protection only in half those rounds, that's still 6-15 reactions taken instead of one. That's a huge difference. +2 damage in that one OA in no way compares to that.
The second is, as Mellored pointed out, the difference in damage contribution of Dueling vs the additional damage your ally would deal. Given that Protection makes most attacks miss and outright prevents critical hits, the odds of the striker dropping will reduce drastically. That's assuming you have a melee striker in your party to protect, of course.
I'm not arguing Protection is the be-all, end-all of fighting styles. Just that it's on par with Dueling.
What baffles me is that nobody is claiming that Protection Style is bad. It's not. It's a solid choice. It's just very difficult to rate because it's so dependent on the make-up of the party. Dueling and GWF can be rated because numbers can be run and processed into a statistic.
In certain parties, Protection can actually detract sometimes when chosen over a more damage-oriented fighting style (as demonstrated above by Yunru and Mellored). That's why it's black. Depending on the circumstances, it can be anywhere from Purple to Sky Blue in its rating.
It's more of a limitation of the rating system (and thus a caveat emptor to those who use them as a guide to builds) than anything else.
Still, Protection should at least be blue, not black, with maybe a note about when it's better or worse.
Elfcrusher wrote:
That quantification ignores a couple things, though. First, as I've already mentioned, not everything that deals damage is an attack. Things that require a saving throw from you, rather than an attack roll from them, are not attacks, and so Protection does not work there.
Second, Protection does not allow you to confirm a hit or a miss before you use it, so any given round you used Protection may be a round that the enemy would've missed on its first roll, anyway.
Third, funny that you bring up CRs and hit points, because it's hordes of CR 1/4 and 1/2 creatures that illuminate Protection's biggest weakness. It can only be used once per round, since it's a reaction. And in 5e, those fights are a real threat, often moreso than against a small group of higher CR foes or against a single boss. Making just one attack out of 8 against your Rogue more difficult really doesn't make much of a difference in those fights. On the other hand, against a CR 1/4 or 1/2 enemy, 2 points on a single hit can spell the difference between living enemy or dead enemy, or spell slot saved vs. having to burn a 1st-level Smite to finish it off.
And finally, for Protection to be a constant round-to-round factor, either you need to end your movement next to the ally you mean to defend, or your ally needs to end its movement next to you. Those aren't always feasible, and I'm not using the AoE argument, either. Protecting a ranged ally means you have to hit-and-run when you attack, which means potentially drawing an enemy OA you wouldn't have otherwise (thus possibly making YOU die faster). Or you could end your turn next to the enemy you're attacking and be a lynchpin for other melee attackers, but that's very party-dependent. Barbarians or Great Weapon Fighters will appreciate it, but Rogues who can bonus-action Disengage every round and always end their turn out of the thick of the melee won't care so much.
GladiusLegis wrote:
one part is definatly true. protection scales, where as dualist peaks at 5 (unless a friendly bard gives you forsight)
but to go from another angle... with it's own set of assumptions.
protection could reasonably save the cleric a level 2 slot per fight.
which could be spiritual weapon
which does 1d8+wis per turn.
so protection adds 1d8+3.
edit: oh, another thing, dualist stacks, where as disavantage doesn't.
As my Paladin is gaining levels, I know I want to multiclass Fighter for at least one level. I'd like to have both Defense (which I have now) and Dueling, and Second Wind seems great too since I'm often the party's front line. But the question is, when do I do that?
Right now I'm level 4, with Strength boosted to 18. I know I want to be level 5 for the extra attack and level 2 spells ASAP, so I'd multiclass at level 6 at the earliest. But at that level you gain Aura of Protection which is great, and one level later Aura of Warding comes into play for me, which lets me protect my allies even better. So my first inclination is to take Fighter at level 8, but is the extra damage and HP from Second Wind worth it at that point?
I have a hard time MCing out of Paly before lvl 12-13....
second wind needs fighter levels to scale. which is mostly the same as lay on hands.
I'm not sure one level of Fighter is worth a dip. Two definitely are, though (Action Surge). But as Coredump alluded to, the first 11 or so Paladin levels are all very difficult to put off for anything else.
What do you think of grappling as an occasional strategy for Paladins? It's not mentioned in the guide as such, but in theory you're well set-up to use it (Str primary, proficient in Athletics).
I haven't done it often yet, but looking back at some fights I think I should've done it more often. I've faced some hardhitting and mobile enemies who would've been a lot less threatening (to me but especially my squishy partymembers) if they'd been grappled and proned indefinitely.
As an occasional strategy, yeah, it's good. You'll never be as good at it as a Barbarian or a STR-Rogue, but it's another tool in the box.
There's a few more points against protection
1. Every time you use it to protect your melee glass cannon, you free every other foe near you to run over to your ranged glass cannon, when normally they would be held in place by the threat of an opportunity attack.
2. The count of melee glass cannons that have to remain in melee after they attack is slim.
3. Once you use it once, foes will most likely concentrate fire on either you OR people who are not within 5 feet of you. Since ideally you want control over where damage goes, this is a two-edged sword that can result in suboptimal damage spread if party members end up trapped next to you. And since you want to bunch up for your aura, it's a bit more limiting than if a fighter takes the same style.
I personally think that the style is incredibly difficult to use in a manner that actually makes a positive impact, as opposed to making it's user feel like a tough guy.
Saeviomagy wrote:
Does anyone have real experience with a low level striker Paladin?
In a party of four with no real tank (GWM Paladin, Moon Druid, Lore Bard, and Cleric/Wizard) I'm having a hard time doing anything useful with my spells.
Concentration makes all of my buffs effectively useless as I cast something, close to melee, get hit, blow the Con save, end of spell. I switched to using Shield of Faith in the hopes of boosting my survivability (normally 16 AC and 13 Con) and prolonging concentration but I think it has lasted maybe 2 rounds max in any fight (we hit level 4 last night).
Are people just using their early level slots on Smites? I feel like my actual damage isn't a problem, it's hitting consistenly and survival in fights.
It seems like maybe this won't be as much of an issue after level 6-8 but that's a ways out.
Thanks for any help.
SlippyNapkins wrote:
Yeah, Concentration is definitely a struggle until Lv. 6.
But then again, what's a Paladin going to concentrate on consistently before then? Bless, which has a built-in saving throw bonus so it's easier to maintain that spell than others. Other than that, you really have no need to use concentration for more than a round.
Unless you dual-wield or took Polearm Master, Divine Favor is typically a net negative compared to a 1st-level Smite: 9/(.65*2.5) = 5.54, so an average of 6 attacks to surpass the damage contribution per spell slot. It's really only good for battles with CR 1/4 or 1/2 mooks, where the extra 2.5 damage might spell the difference between a live or dead enemy.
I disagree with Smite spells being a waste, though. Wrathful Smite is terrific for the condition it inflicts, even if the damage is lower. Thunderous Smite + Divine Smite on the same hit is a great nova from 1-4 (not at 5+).
jaappleton wrote:
jaappleton wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Yunru wrote:
I use Hunter's Mark, and Divine Smite... thats easily 95+% of my spell slot usage. Occasionally I need a utility like Zone of Truth... or maybe Misty Step. But mostly just Divine Smites.... not even Smite spells usually.
mellored wrote:
Saeviomagy wrote:
Figured out three spells in particular mathematically, the pure damage buff spells of Divine Favor, Hunter's Mark and Crusader's Mantle, and adjusted their ratings accordingly. They all involve comparing the damage those spells contribute to an equivalent-level Divine Smite.
tl;dr version: Divine Favor is pretty much always a trap in melee for anything other than a horde battle. Hunter's Mark is always a trap in melee from Lv. 1-4, and at Lv. 5+ is only worthwhile if you're a Polearm Master or maybe if you dual-wield. Both of those spells still have a purpose if you're stuck in range, however, since Smite is melee-only.
Crusader's Mantle ... does hold up vs. a 3rd-level Smite IF you have the right party. You REALLY want at least one Fighter ally and preferably a third ally with Extra Attack for that one to be worth it. And if you've got a summoner in the party, even better.
The math is in the new descriptions of those spells.
do you compare that divine favor only ever takes 1 bonus action compared to hunters mark which can take much more
GladiusLegis wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Uh, and the point of my post was to say that, outside of horde battles, both suck compared to using a 1st-level Divine Smite.
It's also disingenuous to assume that (a) you hit with every attack, and that (b) every Paladin is dual-wielding or taking Polearm Master.
GladiusLegis wrote:
I was comparing them both to a 1st-level Smite though. You're arguing something completely tangential.
What if you compare higher level hunters marks? Once you can sustain it all day? After all, limiting your in-combat spell use to one spell slot for all day frees up a lot of slots for smiting with.
Thank you GladiusLegis for your update on the Divine Favor, Hunter's Mark and Crusader's Mantle spells! I really like your guide and I check it quite often for ideas when playing my own paladin.
I have a couple of questions after your latest update:
1) In your ranger guide you rate Hunter's Mark as gold, whereas after analysis here you rate it purple for the vengeance paladins. Of course rangers don't get the smite mechanic that paladins get. Is this for you the main reason in the huge difference in rating? Building upon that, are there situations where you would say Hunter's Mark is still a decent use of a spell for a vengeance paladin?
2) Crusader's Mantle took a hit, going from light blue/gold to blue in your last update. Would you say that Crusader's Mantle is only ever worth casting if you can pre-cast is before entering actual combat? I'm hitting level 9 with my paladin soon and was looking forward to busting out this spell and to show my party members how awesome my paladin is and how I can "lead by example by making everyone hit harder", but your math is quite convincing, so maybe I'll prepare another spell instead of Crusader's Mantle.
3) I also noticed you bumped up revivify to gold. It has always seemed to be a great spell to have prepared just in case, but could you maybe elaborate a bit on your reasoning to give this spell a gold rating now?
4) My final question concerns Haste. Is it possible to make a mathematical analysis of this spell like you did with Divine Favor, Hunter's Mark and Crusader's Mantle? I do know Haste grants several benefits (extra speed, armor class, advantage on dexterity saving throws: that spell is alround awesome) besides a potential increase in damage through the haste attack option. But it costs an action to cast Haste and even though you make up the difference fully by the second round Haste is active, this means you won't see a damage increase from the third round onward, am I correct? Maybe this can also be compared to the damage of a third level smite? I'm not that strong in mathematical analyses, so this may be completely stupid, and if so, my apologies.
In any event, many thanks again for this guide and your continued efforts in updating it and providing feedback!
Logain08 wrote:
FYI: Contagion needs 3 failed saves to be effective. Which makes is pretty crappy, unless your a rogue/paladin who can hit and run.
Also remember that for Concentration spells, a Paladin (while they get a saving throw bonus at lv6) is going to be in melee. Rangers are often more likely to be at range, and as a result are less likely to be hit, so their Concentration spells aren't as much of a risk as opposed to Paladins.
mellored wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Swamp_slug wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
Logain08 wrote:
I'm glad you are finally agreeing that divine favor does more dpr over an encounter than divine smite for an optimized paladin
GladiusLegis wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Divine Favor is a trap for anything but horde battles because by the time you're at the point that you dealt more damage than a Smite, you're in the mop-up phase of the fight. If you even kept concentration enough for it to last that long, which before Lv. 6 is far from a certainty.
I calculated the number of attacks you need with Divine Favor active to match the same damage up get from a 1st-level Smite. Did you miss that part? Of course you did. If you hadn't missed it, you'd have realized that it takes 6 attacks to surpass a Divine Smite's contribution. That I calculated, which you also obviously missed.
Now, how long does it take a Paladin to get 6 attacks? 6 rounds Lv. 1-4, 3 rounds Lv. 5+. If you're dual-wielding/PM, Lv. 1-4 it'll still take you until the middle of the fourth round (since your bonus action for Divine Favor is used up Round 1). Lv. 5+ dual-wield/PM, middle of the third round (2 attacks 1st round, 3 attacks 2nd round ...)
Doesn't take a genius to see how inefficient that is, even in the best-case scenario.
As for maintaining concentration at Lv. 5, even WITH Resilient (CON) and a CON 16, vs. DC 10, .85^3 = .614, better than half a chance, but at the same time not exactly a reliable chance that your concentration lasts past the third time you take damage. Without Resilient, your chances there are much lower still.
GladiusLegis wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Good afternoon, good sir.
Firstly, I would like to commend you on this compilation of information. It is brilliant and definitely worth a read for any person intending to be any shape of paladin. I have a few comments and concerns, if you will oblige. These are for the original poster as well as anyone competent enough to input their statements.
I currently run a LVL 4 Paladin Human, Variant styled. I took Great Weapon Fighting for my Fighting Style, Sentinel for my free feat, along with Polearm Master as my lvl 4 feat (In retrospect, I should have gotten Polearm Master first). My oath is the Oath of the Ancients. We started with 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8 for our stats, not including racial bonuses. Got 16 STR, 14 CHA, 14 WIS, 12 CON, 10 DEX, 8 INT. I am desiring to multiclass, as I have always, since AD&D, been a fan of their sheer versatility, and the unique power it can bring a character to be multiclassed. So, after hitting lvl 5 (or 11, would like some opinions on that), I planned to multiclass. I have decided that Fighter or Warlock would best suit my desires, so my questions to you all would be 1) How many levels of Fighter and/or Warlock would be best to maximize my damage and survivability with the least amount of rests needed between fights? Short rests are fine enough, but long rests to get my spells and Lay On Hands back is simply too time consuming campaign-wise. 2) Which Archetype/Pact? I was thinking Fighter Archetype would be Battle Master, and Warlock would have Pact of the Tome, most likely, possibly Pact of the Blade. What do your expert opinions recommend, or rather, perhaps you could lay out the benefits and penalties of each? FYI I am in a party with one Stormborn Sorcerer, a Champion Fighter (Sword and Board), a Swashbuckler Rogue, an Arcane Trickster Rogue (Both Dex Based), a Way Of The Four Elements Monk, and a Hunter Ranger. Keep in mind also that not all of us are usually present at the table, with only the Rogues and Sorcerer as every-session players besides myself.
Also, I noticed for multiclassing that Druids is not on the list, and I would like to know why. From my perspective, though I am still new to the subtle differences between 5e and 3e(My primary session rulebooks growing up), Druid multiclass seems fantastic. It would allow a Paladin to, say, take one level paladin for proficiencies, then get some in Druid, for the Wild Shape, and spend instead all his stat points into CHA, WIS, with perhaps DEX as well, as you gain the three physical attributes (STR, DEX, CON) and all it's benefits, as well as maintaining your mental attributes. You can also equip any items on your natural form, provided it allows to use it (I.E., in theory, you could always wear barding designed for, say, a bear, or some other creature. May add much more weight, but still protects even base form I would think). Since you retain your normal ability at speech, any spells requiring Verbal Components only would still be useable, like your Smitings. Also, you gain proficiency in your natural weapons, so Divine Smite would still work then, as your natural weapons are still melee weapons. In fact, most Paladin abilities require touch and/or sleep, neither of which most of the more powerful animal forms would be useful for. It also has the bonus of giving much more spell slots than any of your recommendations, except Sorcerer or, counting short rest slots, Warlock, but also a significant combat benefit. If I hadn't already dedicated to my two feats, I'd actually lean towards Druid. So, why the exclusion?
GladiusLegis, and any others whom read this and have been playing long enough to be knowledgable with 5e, please provide input. I am genuinely interested in any and all responses.
I upped Hunter's Mark back up to black overall because it can potentially last a long time and be an efficient damage boost per spell slot. That's if you're Lv. 6+ and have Resilient (CON).
It's still red Lv. 1-5 because of inefficient damage dealing at start of combat compared to a 1st-level Smite, plus Concentration being a struggle means it probably won't even last an entire battle, let alone an hour.
Shameless_James wrote:
Hi GladiusLegis, thanks for this brilliant guide! I'm trying to build a pally that can get multiple uses of CD daily. I see that if I get cleric 2 I can get a recharge on a short rest, or cleric 6 I can get 2 CDs, also recharging quickly. Are there any other ways, be they items, features or whatever that can lift the Channel Divinity count?
Channel Divinity is short rest for straight Paladins, too. The only way to get 2 per short rest is Cleric 6.
GladiusLegis wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
bears have trouble hitting things at higher level, and are easily hit. dipping moon druids doesn't scale.
the extra HP won't last long when a dragon can auto-hit you. easier to just keep the HP from lay-on-hands.
if you want to dip for more smites, warlock would be better with their recharging slots.
mellored wrote:
For me, playing as a paladin means getting to level 9 (juicy level 3 spells) and level 11 (improved divine smite) as soon as possible. MC druid to me doesn't offer anything that offsets getting those paladin abilities later in my career. Fighter 1 (or 2) or Warlock 2 all offer great benefits, but I find the paladin so well designed as a class that I'm hardly tempted to go towards another class for other abilities. I want Haste and Aura of Vitality as soon as possible. Then I want to race towards IDS. Even after that as a vengeance paladin I want the level 15 ability to basically upgrade my Vow of Enmity. The class is designed in such a way that I want to reach the pinnacle of what the class has to offer. Why go druid at all when the paladin class has so much to offer?
Logain08 wrote:
OK:
- Concentration checks from damage are DC damage/2 round down, FYI. So it's only at 22 points of damage that your DC is higher than 10. Even at high levels, many things don't consistently do that much damage on a single hit. (In melee, most high-damage monsters get their total damage via multiattack.)
- The Vow of Enmity upgrade also doesn't require a feat. Sentinel's nice and all but hardly mandatory and hardly something every Vengeance Paladin prefers.
- 4 levels of Moon Druid gets you: 3 WIS-based cantrips (meh), 2nd-level Druid spells (ehh), Wild Shape maximum CR of 1 (mehhhhhh) and you can't fly. And the feat you gain back at Lv. 4. That's ... not worth it at all.
Shameless_James wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
I would like to challenge some of the assumptions made about how I play my Vengeance paladin (or about playing an Avenger in general). Shameless_James you think I would use Aura of Vitality in combat, but in combat I have better things to cast and do. Bless comes to mind if I would cast anything, or Wrathful Smite or just use my slots for smiting if need be. Healing is not my main job. Aura of Vitaly is utterly fantastic for out of combat healing.
I also don't see your point about the danger of resting related to casting Aura of Vitaly, which only takes a minute. I won't be casting it a lot (Haste seems a great use of a third level slot) but when you do, I think my party members will be very grateful for the added healing in our group. If you were talking about short rests then I don't see the point, but sorry if I misunderstood you.
I would also like to refer you to the calculations GladiusLegis made about a greatsword-wieling Vengeance paladin, under the influence of Haste (and eventually with GWM): the numbers are obscene. Yes please I'd say. Getting there as fast as possible, thus without druid levels that only hold you back, seems the best option. And that's not even taking into account the other bonuses that Haste gives you. Why delay being awesome?
Also the benefits of Sentinel aren't exactly the same as those of the VoE upgrade. With the upgrade you get to attack your target (if you're within range) when he attacks you, when he attacks someone else, when he moves away (opportunity attack). Granted, like you say only once per rest, but very powerful it seems when you use it. Combined with Sentinel it gets even more ridiculous (no more disengaging without punishment for the BBEG) but not all paladins have room for that feat.
With respect, I really do not understand why taking four levels in the druid class would be worth it. But that's just my opinion :-)
jaappleton wrote:
Gotto agree with the other posters druid levels are pretty much useless for a paladin. Maybe a druid might dip paladin for the divine smite, but definitely not worth it for a paladin to dip druid. Probably even that isn't a good idea since you will need 13 str, 13 wis, and 13 cha. That is quite MAD. Just about the only thing good is goodberry and guidance.
The way to tell is to pick a level and compare it with and without the Druid levels.
Ex: Paladin 12 vs Pal8/druid4
Note that revivify is missing the "target's spirit must be free and willing" text of every other resurrection spell. That potentially means you can combine it with Gentle Repose to imprison/transport a foe indefinately. Technically I suppose you can also slay certain fresh undead with it.
"mellored wrote:
No I think the responses are more general: if you go druid you miss out on the good stuff the paladin class has to offer. And no one here, myself included, has said that the paladin's goal is only to do damage. I play one, and my team is consistently amazed at how versatile and strong the class is. Damage? Got you covered. Tanking? Also possible. Healing? Here's some Lay on Hands. Want some control against a tough enemy? Wrathful Smite and have some fun. No one here denies the versatilty of the paladin.
For the record, my party has a druid and a ranger. Both can heal a bit and so can I. And again, I never said I wanted to cast Aura of Vitality all the time. But when you do need to cast it, it's very useful and again proves the versatility of the paladin. My paladin has a lot to offer our group, besides ranged combat (the great weakness...) and by staying paladin (and not multiclassing to say... druid) I can continue to offer that strength and versatility.
And if your point is that multiclassing druid gives you more slots for smiting, then there are better candidates for that: bard, sorcerer or warlock. And they all happen to key off charisma like a paladin. So they seem like much better choices.
You should definitely play the character you want to play or the character you like best, but for me I see no reason whatsoever to stray from a full paladin into a druid.
Miss out? You'll lose 5th level spells, your Aura range increase, and your capstone. That's it. No other loses, unless you count the 20 less HP for Lay on Hands. You even still get your max feats/attributes.
You only have 3 lvl 3 spell slots. Not a lot of Hasting you're going to do, as you'll clearly want to save a slot for Aura and Revivify. Course, you can use your higher level slots to haste, but then you won't be using your higher level spells.
4 levels of Sorcerer or Bard are the only ones that would give the same amount of slots. Warlock has only 2 at that level. But Druid has more benefits than some spell slots and a couple of proficiencies. Bard doesn't seem to enhance your ability to fight, unless you count your long-rest abilities. But Wild Shape can give you a huge boost to HP and combat attributes, plus proficiencies as well, AND, you can shapeshift back to regain all original hitpoints before shifting.
I'm not arguing the merits of a full paladin. I am arguing that Druid Multiclass certainly deserves to be in this guide, as much as the Rogue multiclass does.
Shameless_James wrote:
The only benefit of druid for a paladin really would be the wild shape, and as others have said, that isn’t that strong for only 4 levels in druid. If it is for the spell slots, taking levels in sorcerer makes more sense, since they also use Cha.
In my opinion, you would do better to take levels in cleric over druid if you really wanted to use a Wis based spell caster. Then you get a greater variety in Channel divinity, plus more healing spells and a good ranged spell (guiding bolt).
This isn’t to say that taking levels in druid is a bad idea. Don’t let anyone tell you how to play your character, and maybe in your game or for a combo you have imagined, taking 4 levels in druid is the best option. But at the same time, it isn’t the most optimal build and recommending it to all players who read this guide just isn’t the best idea.
Paladin is an especially hard class to multiclass in, because of all the good abilities are spread consistently throughout the levels. Most people wouldn’t even consider multiclassing until after paladin 11 for improved smiting. At that point, the wild shapes you gain from druid wouldn’t be very strong compared to the monsters you would face
Shameless_James wrote:
Shameless_James wrote:
Shameless_James wrote:
mattaddhall wrote:
First off; my hat is off to Gladius Legis; A wonderful guide packed full of good ideas, I just wish I’d found it sooner - my paladin is lvl6 already..!
Just one suggestion for a magic item I’ve found game changing; I recently acquired a ring of spell storing, that stores up to 5 lvls of spells. In my group, we tend to have lots of short rests, as every other character can regain substantial power during a short rest, whist I as a devotion paladin, can only recharge my channel divinity, which I rarely get to use (I tend to bless the group rather than use sacred weapon if I can). I found the limited spell slots (6 currently) a real difficulty, constantly trying to balance smiting against keeping spell slots in reserve for fights later in the day.
I use the spell storing for all 1st level spells; 2x bless, a cure wounds, and searing/wrathful smites. This takes the pressure off having to hold onto spell slots, as later in the day I can still bless from the ring, and add damage if needed. It doesn’t help so much on long dungeon delves, as you need to have spell slots left at the end of the day to recharge it before resting, but I’ve used it with other class spells in those situations, from the party warlock or druid.
I suppose the only thing that makes it not so great isn’t the item, it’s the chance of getting it; I was lucky that every other party member got something even better – normally you’d expect this to go to a full caster class…
Shameless_James wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Cognomen wrote:
Well, no, it's not, because it's not a spell.
For that same reason, divine smite is an even weirder comparison to make to hunter's mark, which is why I left it out. Its use is not exclusive with hunter's mark (or any other spell); it doesn't require concentration; and it doesn't affect the action economy in any way. The only way it is in competition with hunter's mark is for spell slots. That problem basically sorts itself out at higher levels, as you will usually use divine smite with the highest-level slot available, while there is almost no reason to cast hunter's mark with a higher slot. As your concentration becomes more reliable and you gain more attacks, hunter's mark begins to reliably do more damage with first-level slots.
I'm sure what he means is Divine Smite is "always prepared" as it's an always-available thing to do with your spell slot. Picking at silly technicalities like this weakens your argument.
And comparing Divine Smite and Hunter's Mark is very relevant, because they both represent a single use of a limited resource. Hunter's Mark doesn't become worth the use of the spell slot until you have Extra Attack AND good Concentration (so, basically, Lv. 6). In the first 5 levels, and most certainly the first 4, Divine Smite is going to be the more efficient use of your 1st-level spell slot.
or against hordes.
which you already mentioned.
Or at range.
And I don't think a good Conc check is all that necessary.
You only need to have Hunters Mark going for 2 rounds to make it as good as divine smite, which means there is only 1 round that you need to either 1) be missed and/or 2) make the conc checks. That just isn't that hard to happen at low levels. Then any round past that is the 'extra' damage you cause.
And his point is also somewhat valid..... you are often Smiting with the level 2 or level 3 spells... and may not otherwise use all of your level 1 slots.
Plus, the need for 2 rounds is assuming you are hitting 3 out of 4 attacks, if you are using one of the Channel Divinities..... or have a method of advantage....or some other similar attack boost... it becomes very reasonable that you will hit all 4 times. Which means those 2 rounds with HM does *more* damage than divine smite would have.
Hunter's Mark is not a 'no brainer always use' spell... but it is a very solid choice in many situations.
Coredump00 wrote:
Thank you, Coredump00, for getting it.
GladiusLegis wrote:
There is no point during spell preparation when the player needs to make any meaningful choice between hunter's mark and divine smite (though I suppose the fact that it's always available is further incitement against taking divine favor or smite spells for damage.)
No, it's just a fact. And did you read the very next sentence?
Honestly, I'm not even sure what conversation you guys are trying to have with me. I was looking at claims like FrogReaver's "divine favor is equal if not superior to hunters mark in most situations" (which I think is specious anyway) and thinking, "Even if that's the case, what are you giving up to prep divine favor?" The point I keep hearing in return is that divine smite will probably do more damage at two or three early levels. So? I mean, great, bully for divine smite, but it really doesn't have much of anything to do with spell preparation. Knowing that divine smite will probably do more damage doesn't allow you to un-prepare hunter's mark and take a different spell.
I think you're mixing two different discussions. One is about what spell or class option does more damage or is more beneficial to use (remember, they all use the same resource: spell slots). The other is about what spells you prepare. As a vengeance paladin you always have Hunter's Mark prepared, true, doesn't mean you have to use a spell slot to cast it. So the other question becomes: when is it useful to prepare Divine Favor (when compared to all the other spells you can prepare).
Saeviomagy wrote:
Core dump. Your calculations assume you aren't losing a bonus action attack to cast hunters mark.
Coredump brings up an intersting point. Haste is marked sky blue when in order to cast haste you loose out on two attacks (assuming 18str, 1d8+6 x2 avg 21 dam or 2d6+4 x2 avg ~24 dam). In order to make up for that takes two rounds of the haste bonus attacks just to break even. Add in the 4d8 (avg 18 dam) and now you are looking at around 4 rounds of bonus haste attacks just to get ahead of a lvl 3 DS. Admitedly, haste has some other benefits besides the extra attack, but to rate hunters mark as black and haste as sky blue doesn't sit right to me. Personally I'd downgrade haste to blue since the damage is about a wash but it has other benefits.
you haste yourself, attack with the haste action on the same turn. Then next round you attack 3 times. So really it doesn't take 2 rounds like you just claimed. It takes 1..
I didn't think about being able to haste attack the first round, so that does reduce it a bit. But two of those three attacks on round two are there regardless of haste or not so you can't count those. So effectively you are still looking at 4 rounds of bonus attacks before haste out damages a level 3 smite. If you can pre-cast haste it's two rounds.
A level 1 smite is 2d8 (avg 9 damage) which means 3 attacks (3.5 avg each) under hunters mark to outpace. This can be done in as little as one round with polearm mastery or greatweapon master. or a maximum of 3 rounds at a single attack each round.
So yeah, I don't see why haste is rated so high while hunters mark is just average. Personally I lean more towards downgrading haste.
At least someone is starting to understand that haste is overrated by this community.
I also think haste should be downgraded for a paladin. It is good but nowhere near as good as a sorcerer or even wizard casting it on the BSF, potentially 2 BSFs in the sorcerer's case. Basically the caster is trading their action for 1 or 2 BSFs to gain an attack. However, in the paladin's case since the paladin is the BSF you are forgoing your normal attacks to gain attacks. This takes at least 3 rounds before it is strictly better, than just attacking and even more rounds if that spell slot was used to smite instead.
Coredump00 wrote:
It's only two rounds at Lv. 5+. Before Lv. 5, it's four rounds, and in that case, Divine Smite is better without a doubt. Arguing in favor of Hunter's Mark without considering the levels before you get Extra Attack is dishonest and disingenuous.
As for Haste, you're a Lv. 9 Paladin by the time you get it. At that point, it's very possible you're auto-saving on many Concentration checks. And I offered a purple conditional in case you didn't take Resilient (CON).
As for Haste being an action, again, it's a 10-round buff, much longer than a combat takes in 5e but not so long you can keep it going over multiple encounters. So cast it before the start of combat. If we're going to downgrade spells because they take actions to cast, then Bless should be downgraded, too, by that logic. But I don't think anyone in their right mind will argue Bless should be downgraded, so ...
But yes, if the combat is starting with you already within movement range to melee, then a 3rd-level Smite is better than Haste, and pretty much everything else damage-wise.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Plus_1_Spork wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Haste definitely has it's uses and advantages. I just don't agree with it being super amazing use all the time sky blue. But, it's not my guide so it's not a big deal to me.
FrogReaver wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
gignere wrote:
Is the argument that the only time haste should be sky blue is when you are usin a great weapon wielded and great weapon feat vengeance paladin that uses his channel divinity power for advantage against a large for that can last for multiple (3 or 4) rounds of being hit like this
isnthe argument that haste is only sky blue when precast we before the battle?
FrogReaver wrote:
If you are mounted via "Find Steed," the haste will have some more immediate results.
So.... have a specific build question...
Just hit level 12, with half-orc Vengeance weilding Hazirawn. (But does not have GWF or GWM... started with Shield.) Evenso, with +10 to hit, doing 4D6+1D8+6 damage... doing a decent amount of at will damage.
18 Str, 16 Cha.
Was going to take the +2 Str for obvious reasons... now thinking about Res(Con). It would let me basically keep Hunter's Mark up all day long for a single 3rd level slot, or be able to use Haste and not lose it right away.
I may go Fighter1 or 2 next for GWF and maybe Action Surge.
Input?
Personally I don't think that pre-casting should necessarily be taken into account for default ratings. There are just too many scenarios that make it unfeasable.
That said - haste is always prepared as a paladin if you have access to it, and I think it is still a brilliant spell even if it's not always the best choice to cast in combat.
FrogReaver wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
FrogReaver wrote:
First of all, thank you GladiusLegis for the guide, it's really amazing.
I'm new to D&D and starting a campaign with some friends soon. I'd like some input from experienced players on my paladin build, please.
I've chosen the character flavor before the numbers, so I'm building it within these constraints:
Class: Pure Paladin, Oath of Vengeance
Race: Aasimar
Weapon: Greatsword
For attributes we'll use 27 point-buy, so here is my initial array and target 20th level (post racials):
1st: STR 15, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 9, WIS 10, CHA 17
20th: STR 20, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 9, WIS 10, CHA 18, GWM, Resilient (CON)
Some context:
The party has no tanking PC, we've got a healer Bard, Rogue, Warlock, Ranger and Dual-wielder Fighter.
So my concerns are:
1) Is this a solid plan?
2) How should the progression be? What to do on the 4th, 8th, 12th and so on? ASI first to round up +1 STR and CHA mod or one of the feats first?
3) How dumb am I having to roleplay with INT 9?
4) I don't really know the other classes very well yet, so is there a lack of synergy with this party composition? How do you guys see an average combat going?
I'd suggest that you start with CHA and STR both 16, instead of 15/17. Either way you end up at 16/18 by 4th level, but you spend the first 3 (fragile) levels with an additional +1.
I know this question has been asked and answered before however I have found conflicting answers and thus I am asking it again.
How do Paladin smite spells work, specifically do they only add dmg and effect once or multiple times while concentration persists? The reason for my confusion is the wordings of smite spells so I have gone out and listed all the different smite spells and grouped them into appropriate categories as per my understanding.
Category 1: "The next time you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack during the spell's duration, ... (stuff happens)"
Staggering Smite
Category 2: Same as Category 1 but an effect ends upon spell termination
Wrathful Smite
Branding Smite
Banishing Smite
Category 3: Same as Group 1 but spell can be canceled early by outside force or save.
Searing Smite
Category 4: "The first time you hit with a melee weapon attack during this spell's duration, ... (stuff happens"
Thunderous Smite
My Interpretation:
Category 1- As long as you maintain this spell through concentration and hit enemies you gain the given effects.
Category 2- Same as Category 1, however spell effect is ended when spell is ended.
Category 3- Same as Category 1, however there is one more condition that must be met to maintain the spell.
Category 4-You get this effect only one time.
So my confusion questions are:
How come every spell is not written like 'Category 4' (Thudersous Smite) "the first time you hit..."? There would be no confusion if this were the case.
Why do Thudersous Smite, Searing Smite, and Staggering Smite have a concentration requirment at all? There is nothing to concentrate on for these spells they have no magical lasting effect.
Is concentration only listed to force you to be aware of action economy?
Now I am not trying to say I want my players or myself at lvl 1 running around with Wrathful Smite making every enemy they touch frightened, or banishing everything etc. However what if every smite spell was an instantaneous weapon buff, for the"first time you hit with this weapon after the spell is cast", and those three (3) smite spells that have lasting magical effects gave you the "Option to concentrate for up to 1min" if the enemy failed their saving throw. Would this make them too powerful? What are some other thoughts?
Sorry for the rambling.
"The next time you hit" happens only once. The concentration allows you to keep it up if you miss this turn. The duration makes sure you don't cast it before the battle starts, compare to mage armor which lasts 8 hours.