Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 warpiglet Oct 10, 2014 13:51:13	For whatever reason warlocks suddenly had my interest.  In fact, I am crafting my first 5e character and have chosen this class.  My debate now is about race and patron. I thought about returning the fiend as a pact with a good archoelemental, but I digress.  In another thread I started, there was some discussion the relative uselessness of the blade pact considering the power of the eldritch blast paired with invocations.  However, if feats are used such as great weapon master etc, u can dish out some good melee damage.  Now to the more direct point: can't some of the invocations be put to other use if u do choose to neglect eldritch blast?     My choice in making a strong melee warlock is for flavor and role play, not optimization.  However, it looks as if you can deal damage with a blade and use invocations in all sorts of fun ways. Thoughts?
#2 Strill Oct 11, 2014 4:24:19	Unfortunately you're wrong.  It takes two invocations to get sub-par damage with Blade pact, versus one invocation for good Eldritch Blast damage.  You'll be even worse off for invocations if you specialize in Blade Pact.   However, if feats are used such as great weapon master etc, u can dish out some good melee damage.
#3 Yunru Oct 11, 2014 4:57:56	Be a Hill Dwarf and wear Medium Armor. Str/Cha Primary, 14 Dex, Con secondary. Done. You'll do less damage than Eldritch Blast, at less range, with less manueverability, but you'll certainly be adequate. Darkness (+Devil's Sight) is probably better for you than Hex, the Advantage from being unseen countering the -5 Acc from Geat Weapon Master.
(Reply to #3) 1eejit	Yunru wrote:
#5 Yunru Oct 11, 2014 5:43:51	Depends on what else a Hill Dwarf gets but that could potentially be better for you (does a Hill Dwarf get Shields?), as you can choose where to put the two +1s. Of course, if your primary response is to hit things with your weapon, Str and Con are important (we only want Cha for the lvl 12 invocation really).   EDIT: Disregard shields, all the Heavy weapons are also Two-Handed.   EDIT 2: And of course I meant Mountain Dwarf. +2 Str, +2 Con, Medium Armor, all's good.    For two-handed weapons Mountain Dwarf outclasses Variant Human + Moderately Armored in all but speed. If you're willing to lose a bit of AC: 15(+2) Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 15(+2) Cha Nets you 18 Str and Cha by level 4, maxed primary stats by level 12 (which is good since both add to your damage). Your AC is going to be only around a messly 14 or so though. But with Darkness+Devil's Sight you'll mainly be attacked with Disadvantage, which counters that.
(Reply to #5) 1eejit	Yunru wrote:
#7 Yunru Oct 11, 2014 6:11:01	Herp derp on my behalf. 15(+2) Str, 14 Dex, 10(+2) Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 15 Cha Boost Str and Cha at 4, Str at 8 and Cha at 16 and 19. Take Great Weapon Master at 12 (possibly 8). AC of ~16, usually with disadvantage, decent Dex ST if you're hit by a fireball. You're slightly squishier, but harder to hit.
#8 warpiglet Oct 11, 2014 6:49:16	Good suggestions, all.  A mountain dwarf with his armor and weapons would work out of the box as would a variant human.     A few levels of fighter would also work if multiclassing a fighting warlock.   MAD is a nonissue in the present case. My lowest rolled score is a 12 and I rolled a 17 on the high side, unmodified.    I actually agree with the devils sight...I could take it and darkness to kick butt in the blackness.     Granted, I am looking at ways to construct a tough character but I am not into total optimization.  But as far as damage goes, if I obtain. Magic weapon, use a few feats (e.g. Great weapons whatever) and make it to twelfth (being able to stack strength and cha on weapon damage) I think the character would have some impact on combats in addition to spells.    After considering all of the suggestions it also occurs to me that if I went as high as level 3 fighter, improved critical would also bolster the great weapon master feat.     I think what I am going for is a fighting warlock that wants to start a cult for his patron...so I am also looking at spells and skills to influence others.    To to that end, any suggestions on skills and feats that would help a character to establish a cult?  Clearly, flavor is as important S effectiveness in this case...     Ultimate goal:  fighting warlock trying to spread his cult or start one anyway...want the character to be effective for sure, but doesn't have to be perfectly optimized.   invocation suggestions welcome too
#9 1eejit Oct 11, 2014 7:01:39	Just FYI if you're considering multiclassing you have other options as well as Fighter.    Paladin might be difficult for your stated goals, though Vengeance oath might work. Mechanically it would gel fairly well with Warlock.   Since you say MAD isn't a problem you could even consider a few levels of Monk. Way of Shadows is really cool with Devil's Sight and Darkness use! Personally that's what I'd choose if I had awesome rolled stats, the concept appeals to me.     For your concept the Invocations Beguiling Influence and Bewitching Whispers seem appropriate.
#10 warpiglet Oct 11, 2014 7:28:08	Actually, paladin would fit, especially if oath of ancients and fey pact...monk would work but I like the paladin flavor.   strongly considering fighter or paladin...I also like the purity of a single class as well...tough decisions.
#11 Yunru Oct 11, 2014 7:29:14	Or just the appropriate Cha based Sklls. Maybe dip Rogue for expertise to them?
#12 Strill Oct 11, 2014 15:40:30	warpiglet wrote:
(Reply to #12) warpiglet	Strill wrote:
#14 Yunru Oct 11, 2014 16:11:43	Fighter works better if it's your main class (read over 50% (usually 11 lvls in cases like this)), simply because 3 attacks + multiple ABIs. Depending on how your table reads Invocation prerequisites, starting as a not-warlock is one of the worst choices you can make, as it slows everything down including, with the more restricted reading, Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker.
#15 Strill Oct 11, 2014 16:51:34	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #15) warpiglet	Strill wrote:
#17 Yunru Oct 11, 2014 17:19:37	Heavy Armor can increase your AC 1, maybe 2 over medium (out of the gate) at most. The only applicable Fighting Styles are Defensive and Great Weapon. Well done, a less than +2 increase to damage dice, or a +1 to AC. All at the low low price of being an entire tier behind for a level every tier. Hint, that's not a low price at all.
#18 warpiglet Oct 11, 2014 17:34:15	Hmmm....I could go with variant human and moderately armored and just use the greatsword without proficiency for two levels...hmmmm...very hard.
#19 Strill Oct 11, 2014 18:38:47	Yunru wrote:
#20 JoCa Oct 11, 2014 18:47:05	Yunru's exaggerating the opportunity cost, especially given the RAW reading of invocation level requirements, which is character, rather than class levels. One thing to consider: starting with a level of Fighter gives you proficiency in Con saves, making it easier to hit your concentration check and keep Darkness going. If you go Fighter 11, you only need 3-4 levels of Warlock (depending on timing) to give you Devil's Sight, 2 casts of Darkness per short rest, Lifedrinker, and temp hp on a kill. Alternatively, you can skip the level 11 extra attack to add damage through a Rogue (if using a finesse weapon) or Paladin multiclass. Weapon-wise, you've got a few options:   Rapier + Shield: Allows you to use Dex for your attack stat, and combines nicely with 3 levels of Rogue (Assassin) for a 2d6 Sneak Attack and auto-crits when surprising enemies. Hard to hit. Does not have an easy source of bonus action attacks. Take Duelist Style for an extra +2 damage. Shortsword + Shortsword: Combines well with Sneak Attack and Hex, and with Rogue for extra sneak attacks, or Paladin for the extra 1d8/hit.  You could take the TWF feat, but given that it only adds 1 to your damage die and AC, it's not really worth it. Note that only one weapon can be your Pact Blade, so your off-hand bonus attack will not gain the +Cha damage. Greatsword/Greataxe: High damage out of the gate with the Great Weapon Master feat. Avoid the fighting style, though, as it adds very little unless you have a source of extra dice. +1 AC would be better, especially with enemies hitting at disadvantage and your lack of a shield. Darkness helps with the -5 to hit, though if you take Oath of Vengeance Paladin you may prefer to cast Haste instead.   Halberd/Glaive: The only way to proc your Lifedrinker damage on a consistent bonus attack. Can be combined with Warcaster to allow Eldritch Blast opportunity attacks (yes, you get multiple beams) but note that if they make it next to you, you'll have disadvantage, and that this requires you to have consistently high strength and charisma as you're having to use multiple attack stats. Alternatively, you can go Duelist Style with a Quarterstaff/Shield combo for similar damage, higher AC, but losing the reach (and therefore your chance to make Eldritch Blast OAs without disadvantage). Still, a very effective and balanced character.  Finally, the silly option: If MAD isn't an issue for you, and given that your DM accepts Unarmed Strike as a normal simple weapon as it's listed in the table, you can play a Monk with a Pact Blade Unarmed Strike ("I charge my fists with eldritch energy") to gain Lifedrinker damage on Flurry of Blows bonus attacks. Not for the faint of heart :P
#21 Strill Oct 11, 2014 19:19:03	JoCa wrote:
#22 JoCa Oct 11, 2014 21:11:32	YMMV. I'm reading by what rules are there; you're reading by what you assume the rules are intended to be. And yes, a 2-level dip in Warlock is ludicrously broken for multiclassers. Even without the favorable reading of invocations, Warlock by nature of its spell slot rules is still broken for multiclassers. Multiclassing in general is pretty broken, but this is a product of lazy game design, inconsistent wordings, and low system mastery by its own designers (who often disagree, and misinterpret their own rules) rather than a misreading of the PHB. Nothing says you have to make your character combat effective if you don't want to, though.
#23 Corran21 Oct 11, 2014 22:12:59	JoCa wrote:
#24 Yunru Oct 12, 2014 3:50:30	And again: Starting as a different class puts you an entire tier behind 25% of the time. "What does that matter?" You ask? Just look at the Encounter XP values, at level 5 your capabilities are expected to at least double what they were at level 4. Sure, if your table accepts the reading literally, go ahead and take two levels of Fighter to start with. But as I stated if you table says it has to be Warlock level, dipping Fighter is one of the worst choices you can make, since you double up on redundant features (Extra Attack vs Thirsting Blade) and delay the later tier-jumpers even further (Lifedrinker, Extra Attack II).   As for "needing that Con proficiency": Bullshit. Level 1-4 it's a +2, big whoop. Levels 5-8 it's a +3. Both only effect you if you get hit. Both massively pale in comparison to the value of Extra Attack.
#25 Strill Oct 12, 2014 3:58:41	Yunru wrote:
#26 Yunru Oct 12, 2014 4:10:03	There are four tiers. Tier 1 is 1-4, Tier 2 is 5-10, Tier 3 is 11-16 and Tier 4 17-20. Maybe you should check what you're talking about. At level 5 you are expected to be at Tier 2 power levels. Starting in a different class means you're not. At level 11 you are expected to be at Tier 3 power levels. Starting in a different class means you're not. At level 17 you are expected to be at Tier 4 power levels. Starting in a different class means you're not.   These tiers are serious power jumps, both for you and the enemies. Not meeting those risks both you, and since you're the damage dealer, your party to TPKs.
#27 Strill Oct 12, 2014 4:31:11	Yunru wrote:
#28 Yunru Oct 12, 2014 5:18:54	Let's see: Without feats: Thirsting Blade DOUBLES your DPR. With feats: Thirsting Blade is a 1.5x increase in DPR.   Without feats: Lifedrinker roughly DOUBLES your static damage. With feats: Lifedrinker is a 1.3(333333)x increase to your static damage.   So yeah, major improvements.     For a party of 4 level 4 characters, 5 CR 1/2 monsters is a medium-hard encounter (it is literally the borderline). For a party of 4 level 5 characters, 8 CR 1/2 monsters is a medium-hard encounter.   For a party of 4 level 10 characters, the borderline for a medium encounter is 4800. For a party of 4 level 11 characters, the borderline for a medium encounter is 6400.   So yeah, massive increase in DM guidelines expectations too.
#29 Strill Oct 12, 2014 5:56:57	Yunru wrote:
#30 Jumuraa Oct 12, 2014 6:07:35	@Strill, is your game going to be primarily combat oriented? By primarily, I mean every combat scene can and only will end with the total death of one side or the other. If not, I wouldn't worry about delaying power teir jumps by a level or two.   Yes, the game design is obviously setup to have single-class characters as the main focus. So what? Unless your DM is a complete jerk (or total moron) s/he will adjust combat scene difficulty to your party's abilities. The CR chart is only there as a guide line not a rule. Play the character you want, you'll have more fun and the rest of the group will too.   Don't get me wrong, sometimes DMs make mistakes which can quickly lead to TPKs. I once played in a game where the DM didn't pay attention to the fact that the only caster in the party didn't have any fire or acid spells and decided to throw a group of trolls at us. We ran with it anyway. We just didn't fight them. DPR is not the only (or even most important) consideration for a character, even in combat.
#31 Strill Oct 12, 2014 6:11:58	Jumuraa wrote:
#32 warpiglet Oct 12, 2014 6:48:56	I want to play a warlock cult leader in armor, who can be one of the main combatants.  I do not have to be the perfect match in melee to a fighter...but want to be capable.  Usually we are combat heavy, but are happy to charm, bluff or trick our way out of fights too.  After reading the responses, I have decided that dwarf (mountain, my favorite race) is not the direction I am going due to RP choices.  It's human because I picture the character that way.  My choice now is between taking moderAtely armored as feat, or starting as a fighter and using the feat for great weapon master.  Either way, I can play the character I want (warlock in cool looking armor) but am trying to decide which would be more entertaining.  If I took Fighter at 1st level, I would then go warlock through five.  Only then would I consider adding another level or two of fighter.  If I went fighter I would shoot for F3,W17.   the point about being behind is well taken, but the extra melee stuff would mean I lean more on that which would be ok too since I am looking for a fighting warlock.  Really when I started the thread, it was a question about viability of not just relying on eldritch blast...it's cool, it's efficient, but I like the imagery of melee too.
#33 Jumuraa Oct 12, 2014 7:50:57	Strill wrote:
#34 warpiglet Oct 12, 2014 14:13:34	I will have 18 str if I take moderately armored...I am debating using greatsword without prof bonus for a few levels then swith to it as proficient at 3rd...alternatively might use spear to third and te switch to greatsword...hard choice!
#35 Yunru Oct 12, 2014 14:55:03	A real man uses his fists! When weapons and armor let him down, a true brawler picks himself up and carries on anyway! Do it not for the party you believe in, or for the you they believe in! Do it for the you that believes in yourself! Yours is the fist that will punch out the heavens!     That said punching things is cool and you never have to roll damage. On the minus side you're only doing 1+static mods, 2+ on a crit.
(Reply to #34) vanadium322	warpiglet wrote:
#37 warpiglet Oct 12, 2014 19:06:54	True!  But it does not start until third level...
#38 vanadium322 Oct 12, 2014 19:36:30	Hah, yeah, I dunno how I forgot that.  My bad!