Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Endarrion Sep 16, 2014 8:04:38	So I am considering 2 different versions of a 'dervish' style character. He'll be human most likely in either build. I'm not sure which is more optimal and I'd like opinions on that (not sure I'd play the more optimal one anyway, if that matters). Option 1: Ftr 11/Brb 9. This gives me brutal crit and extra rage damage, along with advantage on most attacks (reckless). I get expanded crits from the champion fighter subclass as well. It would have to be a strength build. The odd level array isn't a huge deal because of the stat bumps from fighter. I really only need 1 feat as well (2 weapon fighting). Option 2: Ftr 15/Monk 5 (or 14/6 if I need magic unarmed strikes). Dex based, which gives more versatility, 1 more attack over the above when I flurry, a better crit range (18-20 vs 19-20), stunning attack, knock down from open hand style. I have less hp with this build though and the damage die will be smaller (d6 vs d8). Thoughts? Basically, I wanted to combine tons of attacks and a high crit probablity. A narrow focus, but interesting to me. EDIT: Pretty sure I just answered my own question. Ftr 11/Rog 9 for the 5d6 crit dice. Or Ftr 15/Rog 5 for 18-20 crit range.
#2 Nachturnus Sep 16, 2014 9:57:58	Fighter/barb.  This is solely because you're going to get more mileage out of the harder-hitting fighter weapons than you will out of a level 5 monk unarmed strike (d6.) Combine that with the increased to-hit and doubled crit chance from permanent advantage as well as the static bonus damage from the barbarian rage damage, and you're going to do waaaaaaaay more damage that way. The monk is going to get a larger number of attacks, but it's not going to be hitting nearly as hard. Build it as a half-orc and you will crush people's faces in with 4 attacks per turn (with advantage) and a 20% crit chance.  Plus, Fighter is going to negate your need to take a giant stack of constitution/dex (just wear heavy armor or medium,)  so you'll have a lot more freedom with both feats and stat boosts.  The monk could get interesting movement and positioning abilities, but from an optimization perspective the Fighter/barb is superior for damage output and survivability.
#3 Kalani Sep 16, 2014 10:54:45	Endarrion wrote:
#4 Nachturnus Sep 16, 2014 11:23:26	Kalani wrote:
#5 Kalani Sep 16, 2014 12:21:32	Nachturnus wrote:
#6 Endarrion Sep 16, 2014 13:16:35	Thanks Nachturnus and Kalani! So it's definitely between the monk and barb variants? I posted an edit about a rogue variant that seemed like it would be better because of the sneak attack dice (since they are doubled on a crit). And given the way crits work, it seems like the extra attack from the monk's flurry would put it ahead of the barb at least in nova terms.
#7 Nachturnus Sep 16, 2014 14:05:31	Having looked at the rogue/fighter options, I think it's probably a poorer choice for damage optimization than the Barb/fighter. The rogue/fighter option won't give you enough sneak-attack die to make it more valuable than another attack considering it's semi-situational nature. If we assume you have an even chances of hitting with sneak attack to hitting with an attack, you end up with 3d6 (10.5 avg) vs 1d8+7 (11.5.) Additionally, I appologize Kalani, as I did not mean any offense. My statement about the die was more in reference to the way critical stirkes work in 5e. When you have a critical chance of 20%, combined with brutal critical and the half-orc racial, the +1 damage per-die is going to turn into something more akin to +2-3. Combined with the +2 per-hit from duelist, it results in a pretty meaty damage equation.
#8 Kalani Sep 16, 2014 14:37:37	Nachturnus wrote:
#9 Whir Sep 16, 2014 18:32:30	Question, Endarrion, and I apologize for any assumptions I may be making: are you looking for a fighter that represents the fabled "whirling dervish" fighting style, or are you looking to play an actual fighter based on Sufi dervishes? Either is okay with me, I just want to understand where you're coming from! The two are worlds apart, and I'm interested in how much of your character you want to roleplay versus how much you want your numbers to be optimized.
#10 Endarrion Sep 17, 2014 4:22:06	Thanks for the number crunching Kalani. I'll have to weigh the options. Mostly what I'm stuck on is that the character is inspired from the first picture on the inside of the PHB. That guy is using two swords and has a bow, so I originally thought dex, but it looks like the closest I can get is the monk with one free hand (to take advantage of catching missles and the fighter dueling feature) or a rogue (which it seems is mecahnically inferior). Just have to think a bit more. Whir: had no idea what a Sufi Dervish was (other than the religious connotation from Sufi) so I looked it up. I really like the idea of a humble character who gives to the poor and I had a similar idea in mind with this character anyway. I originally meant dervish just in the whirling fighting style sense. Happy to educate myself on the origin of the word though, so thank you.
#11 Timborama Sep 17, 2014 7:20:04	There's also always the Ranger with Whirlwind. Dual-wield Scimitars for funsies (or longswords/battleaxes with a feat) and you can choose between hordebreaker, two-weapon fighting, and Whirlwind each round as you dance around the battlefield!
#12 teron82 Sep 17, 2014 10:56:46	Maybe I'm missing something but why is a straight up fighter unsuitable for a dervish?
(Reply to #12) Endarrion	teron82 wrote:
#14 teron82 Sep 17, 2014 11:43:28	I only mention straight fighter because of lots of attacks. Yeah fighter is kinda boring. That has always been the downfall of the fighter...and sadly it is more interesting in 5th than it has ever been. I've always been more of a thematics person than a damage optimization person. I wonder if even the Eldritch Knight could fit a dervish just by describing the spells differently? Then I am unsure how they compare damage-wise to the other two. In reality I think a dervish would fall under straight up monk thematically, but I know they are not the high damage dealers that fighters are.
(Reply to #14) Endarrion	teron82 wrote:
#16 Endarrion Sep 17, 2014 12:08:50	Separate, but related, question: would great weapon master be worth taking just for the extra attack on a crit/kill? I wouldn't be able to use the power attack option since my weapons won't be heavy, but this seems to fall into crit optimization. EDIT: *sigh* Never mind. I see that it's a bonus action and would thus compete with dual wielding.
#17 Whir Sep 17, 2014 18:59:25	I like your fighter/berserker idea the best and I'm curious to see how it pans out.   Don't forget that you'll need to come up with a viable leveling strategy as well. Seems like F5 -> B5 -> F11 -> B9 might be your best bet to optimize your extra attacks!
#18 Endarrion Sep 18, 2014 13:07:18	Ok. I think I am gonna go with the barb variant. Kalani did a great job laying out the pros and cons and though the monk seems to come out on top by a slight margin, I think the barb is more appealing for some RP reasons (I came up with a really fun way to roleplay his rage). I think he'll still be more than adequate at his job (killing things) so that's good. One thing though - I was originally planning on having him able to stealth so I am thinking of keeping his dex at +2 and wearing medium armor. Will that gimp him too much as far as stats and AC? At level 1 I am thinking Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, and Cha 13 (the cha is for rp reasons and skill bonuses)with the 2 stat bonuses going to Str and Dex. Also starting off as a fighter. As for level progression, I think I'll go Ftr 1, Barb 1, Ftr 5, Barb 9, Ftr 11. I know that delays the extra attacks a bit, but with 2 weapon fighting I don't think I'll notice much. Thoughts?
#19 Kalani Sep 18, 2014 14:11:45	Endarrion wrote:
#20 Endarrion Sep 18, 2014 15:28:06	Kalani wrote: