Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Aelioran Aug 21, 2014 11:00:36	I want to build a multiclass Paladin (Vengeance)/Warlock, and would like some ideas on what might be the best route to advance it.   I am going for a heavily armored gish build, primarily melee oriented using a pact blade. The more arcane utility the better, however.   I would like to reach at least 11th level in Paladin to pick up Improved Divine Smite, unless there is a good enough ability from Warlock 11+ that would justify the loss of 3d8 damage a turn (Extra attack plus haste).   Also, our table has ruled that warlock invocations are based on character level rather than warlock level.   That being said, the natural cutoffs seem to be at the following abilities: 4th level stat bumps Soul of Vengeance (Paladin 15) Cleansing Touch (Paladin 14) 5th Level Paladin Spells/2nd level Warlock Spells (Not alot of arcane utility, but gets Hold monster from the Paladin list, ironically) 4th Level Paladin Spells/3rd level Warlock Spells (15/5. Also gets Soul of Vengeance and Cleansing Touch. Stat bump loss) 3rd Level Paladin Spells/4th Level Warlock Spells (12/8 with no stat bump loss)  3rd Level Paladin Spells/5th Level Warlock Spells (11/9 with stat bump loss)    So I think my question boils down to what the value of 4th and 5th level Warlock or Paladin spells are currently.   The other part of the equation is how to spread the levels out.   Paladin 1-5/Warlock 1-3/Paladin 6-8/Warlock 4/Paladin 9-11/Warlock 5-X/Paladin 12-Y seems like it gets the features I am looking for the earliest. 2nd attack at 5th, Pact Blade 8th, Lifedrinker 12th, Haste at 13, Imp. Divine Smite at 15. 3rd+ warlock spells at 16.    What do you guys think? Any suggestions?
#2 Danny_Montanny Aug 21, 2014 13:33:43	The simple fact that you're changing the rule on Invocations would make everyone take at least 1 level in Warlock. Cantrip power as total levels, but not a class feature. If I were to follow the rules and build this, I'd build a Polelock.   Start 1st-level as a variant human Paladin with the Polearm Master feat. This will give you the armor and weapon proficiency you need and more than likely 3 attacks in a round. Stay Paladin till 5th-level. Pick up Great Weapon Fighting at level 2 and Warcaster at level 4. After level 5 is where the fun begins. You decided that picking up an Infernal patron will aid you in a quest for vengeance (temporary HP). At 2nd-level get Repelling Blast and whatever other Invocation looks nice to you. Possibly Agonizing blast as you'll be using your Eldritch Blast a lot. Why will you be using it a lot? Well because anyone who ventures too near without taking the Disengage action first is gonna get blasted by 2 Eldritch Blasts that each do 1d10 + CHA (if you chose Agonizing Blast) damage and a 10 ft. knock back when they hit. At 8th-level you'll have a magic weapon that can never be taken away from you. Take Warlock to level 4 and bump either STR or CHA. Back to Paladin for at least 2 levels to grab Relentless Avenger, plus Aura of Protection will give you a bonus to the concentration saves you'll be making quite often as Hex will be running as much as possible. So that bring us to 11th-level. Another level in Warlock for a 3rd Invocation? Paladin for stat bump to keep up with the curve? The only other thing that I would possibly do is abandon Paladin altogether after level 5 to get Hurl Through Hell. 1 round of heal and ready actions to blast this sucker when it pops back in could turn the tide of any high level battle.
#3 woif Aug 21, 2014 14:35:57	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #3) Danny_Montanny	woif wrote:
#5 TheCriticalFail Aug 21, 2014 16:38:33	I'm currently using a build similar to this (though we ruled that invocations were based off class level) so I have a few ideas. One: Quickly grab level 3 Warlock and take the Darkness spell as well as Devil's Sight. That's basically permanent advantage on your attacks when cast, and permanent disadvantage on all attacks against you. Plus you gain two uses regenerating per short rest. Asides from this, build pretty much as Danny says. Two: Now this is more fun. Go for mounted combat. Take the mounted feat and grab "find steed" at level 5. You know have advantage while mounted and one or two attacks of 11 damage each from your mount. Plus twice your normal speed. Then at rank 9 you unlock haste. Which, automatically transfers to your mount as well. You now have three attacks, plus 1 from your polearm mastery and another two attacks with an additional attack if they fail a str test from your mount. You and your mount both have double speed and plus 2AC. Additionally, with your oath vengeance class feature you can now retreat up to half your speed when taking an opportunity attack (which you can when an opponent enters range) so enjoy galloping away 60feet or so whenever someone gets near enough to hurt you. At level 11 pick up improve divine smite for an additional 4.5 or so damage to each attack and then grab three warlock levels for lifedrinker and enjoy your additional +3 or more from your CHA bonus. From there... have fun. Second one is a LOT more interesting IMO and actually involves dealing a lot more melee damage with your pact blade as opposed to casting eldritch blast (which defeats the point of really having a pact blade).
#6 woif Aug 21, 2014 17:43:27	Danny, we may be misunderstanding each other. You are correct in what you you bolded, you only gain new invocations when you take certain warlock levels. What i think OP's table has agreed upon is that in order to qualify for the level based prerequisites for invocations you count your character level as opposed to your warlock level, thus you could replace one of your old invocations with lifedrinker when you hit character level 12 assuming you took a warlock level. This is the how the rules function as written, I am not sure if this is intended or not. Either way that is a discussion for a different thread as OP's table has already made their choice. Personally I would go with paladin12/warlock8 or paladin16/warlock4. Both give you full ASI/feats. The first option gives you Soul of Vengence while the second one gives you Dark One's Luck and 3/4th level warlock spells which do have a few useful ones.
(Reply to #5) Danny_Montanny	TheCriticalFail wrote:
(Reply to #6) Danny_Montanny	woif wrote:
(Reply to #8) Aelioran	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #9) Danny_Montanny	Aelioran wrote:
#11 Souffle Aug 21, 2014 21:18:13	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #11) Danny_Montanny	Souffle wrote:
#13 Theridion1 Aug 22, 2014 6:31:44	Every class has abilities. And they are almist always written as "when you get to a level... or at level". None specify class level because it is implied in the English language. You cant deny English writing conventions and claim RAW. Its like the dagger guy from Guardians of the Galaxy not catching onto colorful language or sarcasm. Under this houserule logic... read level 20 fighter. Cant you do 19 levels wizard then pick up 1 lvel fighter and it says, "at level 20 you gain 4 attacks"? Thats not the exact wording but i know for sure it doesnt say "when you now are a level 20 fighter". Just because warlocks select from a table, rather than paragraphs that go level by level, that doesnt change the way the book is written.
#14 Polaris Aug 22, 2014 11:40:15	Theridion1 wrote:
#15 Aelioran Aug 22, 2014 12:26:06	Theridion1 wrote:
#16 Kalani Aug 22, 2014 13:15:52	The question is whether this is class level or character level. Spells are listed in a separate chapter of the book, and in light of the High Elf, Magical Initiate and Spell Sniper Feats, and multiclassing rules it is a fair assumption to state they were intended to level based on character level.   Warlock Invocations are different however. Despite using the same common-use language, they are nested within the Warlock class description. This is a key distinction which may/may not be relevant.   As such we must look at other class features to see if they contain a list of optional level-dependant class features which the character may choose from.   The closest examples we have is the Battle Masters maneuvers and the Four Winds Monks spells. Sadly, unlike Warlock Invocations - none of the manuevers on the list have a level requirement and therefore cannot be used as an example.   The spells of a Four Winds monk however use the same identical language as warlock invocations. Logic would dictate, that the same rules apply to the Four Winds Monk as a Warlocks Invocations.   Elemental Disciplines (p81):  If a discipline requires a level, you must be that level in this class to learn the discipline. The wording for Eldritch invocations is less clear however.   Eldritch Invocations (p110): If an eldritch invocation has prerequisites, you must meet them to learn it. The descriptions of the various invocations and elemental disciplines use the same identical language. Both are listed within the class description of their respective classes. The only difference being the preamble being worded slightly differently as indicated above.   With that being said, without further clarrification from a Dev, Errata, or FAQ, it is logical to assume that Invocations and Elemental Disciplines work identically, and that you must meet a minimum warlock level to choose certain invocations.   This is implied by the RAI, but you are correct - the RAW is unclear and may be interpreted both ways. I hope a FAQ/Errata is forthcoming quickly in this respect, as it seems against the implied intent.
#17 kilpatds Aug 22, 2014 14:14:16	I asked mearls on Twitter, and got a reply of "up to the DM - depends on group expectations".  My personal take is that he was suggesting that it should require class levels.  But if a specific example isn't actually overpowered, then it's likely not an issue...
#18 borg285 Aug 22, 2014 16:46:52	I'd like to add that Paladin 6 gives one of the few boosts to saving throws. I think it'll be rare to find boosters, thus Paladin 6 has high value in my book. Warlock 1 for Hex also has high value. Considering you can save taking warlock 2 till later character levels it would be good to dip warlock, fill out paladin, then come back to warlock.
#19 Danny_Montanny Aug 22, 2014 17:36:05	Let's see if I understand and can get a cool build.   Stats. Variant Human. 16, 10, 14, 8, 8, 16. Chainmail and Glaive.   1st. Paladin 1: Polearm Master. Divine Sense. Lay on Hands 2nd. Paladin 2: Great Weapon Fighting. Divine Smite. 3rd. Warlock 1: Dark One's Blessing. Eldritch Blast and Hex. 4th. Warlock 2. Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast. 5th. Warlock 3: Pact of the Blade. Replace Agonizing Blast with Thursting Blade. Misty Step 6th. Warlock 4: Warcaster. 7th. Paladin 3: Divine Health. Oath of Vengence (Abjure Enemy and Vow of Enmity). 8th. Paladin 4: Mounted Combatant. 9th. Paladin 5: Extra Attack. Find Steed. 10th. Warlock 5: Devil's Sight. Replace Thursting Blade with Agonizing Blast. Fly. 11th. Paladin 6: Aura of Protection. 12th. Warlock 6: Dark One's Own Luck. Replace Agonizing Blast with Lifedrinker.   Added together the benefits of the 2 options I liked. Went with the Warcaster Eldritch Blast knock back OA, then mounted combat. At 10th level you'll be flying on your steed blasting and hacking away with abandon.
(Reply to #5) 2Chlorobutanal	TheCriticalFail wrote: