Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SSJ-Echoes Sep 19, 2015 0:26:23	Hello all, I am a new player to D&D and after my first session had a couple questions. My DM can't really answer everything since he is also new to the game.   Since I have a couple but really brief questions a decided to just make a single post since they are all really brief. Also I am new to this forum and in a bit of a rush so sorry if this is the wrong section.   My main question is with role playing. I am currently playing a Paladin, with Acolyte as a background, thus very religious, and in my personality I have optmistic. I basically want to play a very virtuous paldin. (I basically risked my life to help a citizen). So from a RP point of view I should take the Oath of Devotion. The thing is I'd actually like to be a good damage dealer, and am currently wielding a Maul. The Oath to devotion aura's seem lackluster compared to the Relentless Avenger and Soul of Vengeance skills. Avenging Angel seems also much more baller than Holy Nimbus.   So is it possible to take the Oath of Vengeance, and still be and honest, protector of the weak type of charcter, willing to sacrifice my life to save someone. Could I take the decision to save the life of an innocent character instead of smiting the greater evil?   Also, on a mechanicl point of view, is Oath of Vengeance really better than Oath of Devotion? What I can assure you guys is that I think that Oath of Vengance seems more interactive and fun, than just providing auras.   I'm kind of on a fence right now and it would be awesome if you guys could help me out.   Also on a completely different notes I have a couple question regarding rules(ish): What do you role on a Maul critical hit? How exactly do you proceed to get a feat when you level up? I know it is optional but what do you have to trade in order to get a feat? (I also have no clue what you get when you level up)   Thanks!
#2 jaappleton Sep 19, 2015 7:05:09	First, welcome to D&D! And yes, you asked this in the right section.   For your first concern, about Devotion VS Vengeance; An important thing to remember is the Oath as a whole. Not only one feature of it.    Both of their Channel Divinity features give a boost to your accuracy. Devotion adds +Charisma Modifier to your attack rolls with one weapon, and Vengeance gives you advantage. Remember, however, that Devotion's is effective against any enemy. But Vengeance's Vow of Enmity is only against one target.    Also, compare their spell list. Vengeance gets 'Hold Person'. That in itself doesn't do damage... But it renders an enemy defenseless. Enjoy pummeling your foe like there's no tomorrow. Devotion's spells are focused a bit more on defense and utility than ways to defeat your foes. And that's not a bad thing! Sometimes, preventing an enemy from doing damage to you is better than hitting him with an attack. Remember, you can't kill everyone yourself; Your allies need to be alive to help you. Think of it as synergy between yourself and your allies.   You said you think Devotion's lv7 Aura is weak compared to Vengeance's lv7 ability. Charmed is a tough condition. If your allies get charmed, they're likely going to attack you (albeit unwillingly) and now you've got to deal with them, whom you want to subdue but not kill, and the guy actually controlling them. The enemy just created new allies for himself when he charmed your Rogue. Vengeance, however, only triggers when you can get an opportunity attack. It's somewhat DM dependent. Take that into account.   As far as their high level abilities go, their lv15 abilities... This advice comes in two parts.   1. Devotion has Protection from Evil & Good, which is helpful. No doubt about that. Anything that helps keep you alive, even though you aren't doing damage, is something that's enabling you to attack next turn. Vengeance is again somewhat DM dependent; In actuality, to trigger this effect, you'll want your allies to get attacked so that you can squeeze in these additional attacks. But its your DM that decides who the enemy swings at, of course. If the DM just focuses on you, you don't get any of those bonus abilities.   2. These are lv15 abilities. The abilities here, and after, are a very long ways away. In my experience, your character won't live long enough to reach that level. People get busy and their groups disband, or their character dies (Hopefully doing something awesome) and you make a new one. Try not to get too hung up on high level abilities.      For more information, I highly, highly recommend this: http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4135276   That is Oathbound: The Paladin Guide by user GladiusLegis, another forum member, and he wrote a spectacular guide on Paladins and their abilities.        Now, that covers all your "Devotion VS Vengeance" stuff from the mechanics side of it. But what about the RP side of it? Just because you're Devotion doesn't mean you're nice, have to use Diplomacy before ever swinging your sword, etc. You don't have to abide by the Lawful Stupid trope. Remember, Good =/= Nice. Batman is good, he's far from nice. So you can be kicking ass left and right with no worries regardless of which you choose. Let me give you a hypothetical.   The vampire lord has been killing people in the rural town, people are found drained of their blood. You track him down to a creepy mansion on the outskirts of town. There, he has a hostage. For the Vengeance Paladin, that hostage might be an acceptable loss if it guarantees that you kill that vampire now. Not later, now. For the Devotion, that persons life might be more important than killing the vampire right now.
#3 BRJN Sep 19, 2015 18:43:14	Oath of Devotion is supposed to feel like "The Classic LG Paladin"(TM). Oath of Vengeance is supposed to feel like a 4e Avenger: somebody who goes into all-out offense mode.   For your character, you can still behave LG with the Vengeance Oath.  Play him like he loses his temper sometimes? I made up an Ancients Paladin who was sworn to Civilization (instead of Nature), restrained his enemies (via Channel Divinity) with handcuffs rather than briars - or tried to anyways, 100% of my targets made their Save - and once jumped into 30-ft deep water while wearing plate armor (and a rope around my chest) because our rogue had been pushed in first and was drowning.
#4 daspian Sep 19, 2015 21:49:12	Oath of Devotion = the classic do-gooder, knight in shining armor protector of the innocent type... build is oriented mostly for defensive purposes/  buffing allies   Oath of the Ancients = Neutral and Neutral Good oriented type, an interesting flavor for those who want to play a Fey-Knight (elf paladin who protects nature and the feywild, some Fey Knights or "Green Knights" as they are called don't necessarily serve a deity, but just overall want to protect the concept of lfie in general and protect the "Balance" they are essentially plate-wearing divine druids, minus the shapeshifting and nature magic.   Oath of Vengeance = we got your anti-hero, i'm here to cleanse the world of all evil, and nothing shall get in my way!...oh? do i need to break a few eggs in order to make an omelet? ok! aka ...some might justify this as an Oath of Vengeance Paladin being able to kill an innocent for the greater good, these paladins tend towards Chaotic Good, sometimes even Chaotic Neutral, they're essentially the dark-brooding anti-hero types.... if you need a classic example ... *Cough* Batman *Cough*.... Warhammer Witch Hunters are another good Example.   Oathbreakers *DMG* = Your generic Anti-Paladin, Evil, Powerhungry, essentially a Death Knight if you are familiar with the warcraft series, clasically range from any of the 3 EVIL alignments, depends on how your character's personality is.   remember these are only guidelines, you can pretty much play anything suffice you have a reasonable story....   as for what oath is "best"   Paladins lucked out and all their oaths are actually pretty good, none of them suck at all... Vengeance is kinda seen as the most offensive oriented, but Devotion is no laughing matter either if you really wanted to choose it, i would (in my opinion) just choose whatever you felt regardless of mechanics, simply because all their oaths are excellent choices, and it eventually gets to a point where it really doesn't matter because high level D&D just becomes absurd anyways =P
#5 Chaosmancer Sep 20, 2015 21:22:54	SSJ-Echoes wrote:
#6 daspian Sep 20, 2015 23:34:44	going off what  Chaosmancer said... yea... don't worry about the distinction that much,,, Paladins lucked out and all their oaths are really pretty sweet... the damage is practically the same, it's just how youy go about it, like he said... Vengeance = Single Target, Devotion = defensive/inspiring allies, but still do a pretty good amount   remember, it's all about your smiting mostly, and what your weapon is.   (best min-max would be Great Wep fighting using a maul or GS, and grabbing GW feat as a vengeance for Single Target burst)
#7 pdegan2814 Sep 21, 2015 15:03:20	That Aura Of Devotion is nothing to shake a stick at, there are some nasty charm effects in the game. Giving your party immunity to them will be VERY useful. And that Sacred Weapon ability will come in real handy during a boss fight. It's not a damage modifier, but it will help ensure that all your strikes actually hit.   At the end of the day, it's about which aspect of your character is more important to you, the mechanics or the storytelling. Neither one is "better" or "worse", it's just a question of what gives you the most enjoyment from the game.
#8 Macv12 Sep 21, 2015 19:40:18	Since it hasn't been mentioned, redoing the flavor text will get you pretty far. The paladin oaths have some cool flavor text to them, but you shouldn't be bound to them to get those effects.   Note that avengers get a lot of movement/speed-related abilities. Relentless Avenger to move after OAs, Avenging Angel to fly, Misty Step, Haste, and Dimension Door. Plus, radiant damage on smites. You could flavor all this as light-related effects. This could also work for Vow of Enmity, explaining advantage on attacks as high-speed movement. And Soul of Vengeance explained as being fast enough to fit in more attacks.   So now that you're all light-themed, that fits with a young, positive, high-energy, optimistic character. Now you need an oath. Of course if your DM is cool with it, all these powers mentioned could be explained as just magical abilities, and you could have whatever oath you want. But let's assume these abilities have to come from the oath, to be safe. The Tenets of the Ancients, renamed to Tenets of the Light, is pretty much perfect. But you're all about burning away, not sheltering, so they could use some tweaks.   Oath of Light Inspire strength. Do not lead, but inspire others to shine with their own inner strength. Shine together. Where there is light, keep it glowing. Where there is darkness, find a place for light to shine. Purify darkness. Focus your strength with precision, burning away evil. Dance in the wind. Even in times of hardship, find joy, and spread it to others.   The intent of that oath is to give you a reason to "evangelize" as an excited acolyte, justify the offense-oriented stuff and the single-enemy focus of Vengeance powers, and maybe give you a reason to prefer turning enemies to good instead of destroying them (if you interpret "burning away evil" with "precision" as convincing an otherwise-good goblin to stop doing evil). And there's certainly room for character development as your character realizes how naive they were, and either their spark of positivity dims or they come to rely more on the final tenet, for example.   Hopefully that helps some.
#9 Krusk Sep 24, 2015 15:22:25	You picked a great time to join the forums. They are being shut down by the end of next month.