Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Havenward May 23, 2015 5:51:54	I am begining to write a guide on Warlocks and I was hoping to get the general thoughts of the community on the different strengths and weaknesses that warlocks have.  Any input would be appreciated.
#2 FunkySpunk May 23, 2015 6:41:32	Pact of the Blade should be better. Their melee weapon should be a clear winner over EB (since they're entering the dangers of melee combat) and/or they should have better armor options than light.
#3 Mephi1234 May 23, 2015 6:55:20	Feel free to use this as a base:   http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4133456
#4 mellored May 23, 2015 8:22:39	They have less nova then other casters, but are more consistant.   Blade is too MAD but have high potential if you manage to get extra stats (good roll, gauntles of giant strength).   And they are balaned around 2 short rests per day.  More short rests makes them powerful, less makes them weak.
(Reply to #4) FrogReaver	mellored wrote:
#6 Mazzy May 23, 2015 10:06:01	Having played a warlock for quite some time, they are overall fantastic.   Strengths: 1) They break the normal convention in 5e that classes with great daily burst have terrible at-wills and visa versa (weapon attacks > cantrips), in that they have both. Eldritch Blast is very competitive with weapon classes, especially with Hex.   2) Plenty of spells. Don't mind the naysayers who claim 2/short is awful. Considering that you can pick invoactions that grant additional spell slots, at level 10, which is the worst level to compare for a warlock, assuming 2 short rests that is potentially 11 slots compared to a full caster's 15. And those slots can be mostly all 5th level, so there's that.   3) Great items. Rod of the Pact Master is better than Wand of The War Wizard. And while they might not get some of the more popular wizard spells, they can attune to most of the wands and staffs that wizards can (staff of fireball, wand of polymorph, etc).   4) Survivability. d8 hit die, light armor, and two of the pacts offer useful survival abiltiies. And Armor of Agathys is amazing.   5) Good multiclass synergy. Since invoactions and eldricth blast scale with character level instead of class level (unless a ruling has changed), you really don't set much on hold by dipping into fighter or bard.      Weaknesses: 1) Bad spell list. Getting a couple great spells like Hex do not hold up against losing the multitude of incredible spells wizards get. Especially noticably at higher levels (5+).   2) Less utility. Most of the their spells and features are combat oriented. A scant few invocations can help that (Book of Anceint Secrets, Beast Speach, etc) but it comes at a price whereas wizards get incredible utility without giving much up.   3) Worse stats. Party dependant, but in a game where 4 classes need charisma and 1 needs int, you will usually find yourself more useful as a wizard filling that party weakness than a charisma skill guy where there will likely be someone else who can fill that role.   4) Less potential burst. I only mention this to say why it is not a valid weakness. Yes, you only get two spells so you can't save up all day to unload on the BBEG the way a wizard can. However, you are not living in a vaccum. Since you can spend more resources on the earlier and easier encounters, the rest of your party has more ability to save their resources. This greatly increases the odds of the Paladin still having smites in the final room than he would have had traveling with a miserly wizard.
#7 durntaur May 23, 2015 10:07:24	Mazzy wrote:
#8 Havenward May 23, 2015 12:17:37	Thanks for all your thoughts.  I've read and are considering all of them.
#9 Havenward May 23, 2015 12:21:05	Mephi1234 wrote:
(Reply to #7) Mazzy	durntaur wrote:
(Reply to #5) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #6) Ashrym	Mazzy wrote:
#13 ObeseBoyWonder May 23, 2015 13:58:38	Ashrym wrote:
#14 Treantmonklvl20 May 23, 2015 16:25:59	I think the Warlock class is a great 2 to 4 level dip for any Cha based character.  Eldritch blast is terrific, and Hex compliments it perfectly.  A Blade Pact Warlock/Paladin can outdamage most classes pretty reliably.   My main issue with the Warlock class is that I find very little reason to not Multiclass to Bard or Sorcerer after level 4.  The Warlock spell list gets steadily worse as the level increases, with the list at level 4+ getting downright poor.  Even if 9th level spells get reached later, I think it's hard to defend Warlock 20 over Warlock 2/Bard 18 or Warlock 2/Sorcerer 18.
#15 JackOfAllTirades May 23, 2015 18:16:05	Mazzy wrote:
#16 durntaur May 23, 2015 18:32:22	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
#17 durntaur May 23, 2015 21:22:56	JackOfAllTirades wrote:
(Reply to #13) Ashrym	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
(Reply to #18) ObeseBoyWonder	Ashrym wrote:
#20 durntaur May 23, 2015 21:34:52	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
(Reply to #11) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
#22 Ashrym May 24, 2015 0:15:16	Okay, not using the bonus action for an attack and using eldritch blast in melee range per the quote:     weapon user vs eldritch blast, variant human for the feat crossbow expert vs pole arm master, standard ability score spread (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), 65% accuracy   Weapons user starts STR 16, CON 14, CHA 14, DEX 12, WIS 10, INT 8 Blaster user starts CHA 16, CON 14, DEX 14, WIS 12, STR 10, INT 8     Level 1 Polearm - staff 2 handed   5% crit 2d8+3 = 0.6 5% crit 2d4+3 = 0.4 60% normal 1d8+3 = 4.5 60% normal 1d4+3 = 3.3 damage = 8.8, plus extra opportunities for opportunity attacks.   Level 1 Eldritch blast, no bonus attack per discussion   5% crit 2d10 = 0.55 60% normal 1d10 = 3.3 damage = 3.85, opportunity attacks suck     Level 2 Polearm - staff, 2 handed doesn't change unless the character splurges on poison for an increase not available to eldritch blast.   Level 2 Eldritch blast adds agonizing blast   5% crit 2d10+3 = 0.7 60% normal 1d10+3 = 5.1 damage = 5.8     Level 3 Polearm - halberd from blade pact   5% crit 2d10+3 = 0.7 5% crit 2d4+3 = 0.4 60% normal 1d10+3 = 5.1 60% normal 1d4+3 = 3.3 damage = 9.5, plus extra opportunities for opportunity attacks.   Level 3 eldritch blast   5% crit 2d10+3 = 0.7 60% normal 1d10+3 = 5.1 damage = 5.8     Level 4 Polearm - STR increases to 18   5% crit 2d10+4 = 0.75 5% crit 2d4+4 = 0.45 60% normal 1d10+4 = 5.7 60% normal 1d4+4 = 3.9 damage = 10.8, plus extra opportunities for opportunity attacks   Level 4 eldritch blast - CHA increases to 18; advantage on DC's but let the blaster do that while the blade pact uses slots on non-DC / hit roll spells   5% crit 2d10+4 = 0.75 60% normal 1d10+4 = 5.7 damage = 6.45     Level 5 Polearm - Blade pact picks up thirsting blade, now has the same number of feats and invocations dedicated to damage as the agonizing blaster   2*5% crit 2d10+4 = 1.5 5% crit 2d4+4 = 0.45 2*60% normal 1d10+4 = 11.4 60% normal 1d4+4 = 3.9 damage = 17.25, plus extra opportunities for opportunity attacks   Level 5 eldritch blast - second eldritch blast   2*5% crit 2d10+4 = 1.5 2*60% normal 1d10+4 = 11.4 damage = 12.9   I would like to point out that the spell DC's are 15 and 13 respectively.  That means if both take hypnotic pattern the only difference hitting 20 regular WIS targets is only 12 targets failing instead of 14.  The difference on an AoE spell like that is only going to be a couple of targets and still effective for blade warlock.     Level 8 Polearm - STR increases to 20   2*5% crit 2d10+5 = 1.5 5% crit 2d4+5 = 0.5 2*60% normal 1d10+5 = 12.6 60% normal 1d4+5 = 4.5 damage = 19.2, plus extra opportunities for opportunity attacks   Level 8 eldritch blast - CHA increases to 20   2*5% crit 2d10+5 = 1.6 2*60% normal 1d10+5 = 12.6 damage = 14.2     Level 11 Polearm - +1 halberd, starts using snake venom supply   2*5% crit 2d10+6 = 1.7 5% crit 2d4+6 = 0.55 2*60% normal 1d10+6 = 13.8 60% normal 1d4+6 = 5.1 2*65% poison at 100% save rate = 6.5 damage = 27.65, plus extra opportunities for opportunity attacks   Level 11 eldritch blast - +1 rod of the keeper, 3rd blast   3*5% crit 2d10+5 = 2.4 3*60% normal 1d10+5 = 18.9 damage = 21.3   Adding in the poison damage might seem a bit forced, but the option has alwasy existed to use cheaper poisons and by this level 200 gp isn't too much to expect.  The DC gap improves with rod of the keeper so it's a trade off still.  It's 21.15 without the poison and the .15 difference can still be made up with the additional opportunity attacks.  Without the crossbow expert the disadvantage shots would be killing damage on the agonzing blaster.     Level 12 Polearm - adds lifedrinker, 16 CHA   2*5% crit 2d10+9 = 2.0 5% crit 2d4+9 = 0.7 2*60% normal 1d10+9 = 17.4 60% normal 1d4+9 = 6.9 2*65% poison at 100% save rate = 6.5 damage = 33.5, plus extra opportunities for opportunity attacks   Level 12 eldritch blast - likely picks up a defensive feat like medium armor, possibly warcaster to get better opportunity attacks and better concentration   3*5% crit 2d10+5 = 2.4 3*60% normal 1d10+5 = 18.9 damage = 21.3    The blade warlock is up to 27 without the poison.  Both are likely to be taking defensive options for the remaining feats / ASI's. The blade warlock is a bit behind in DC's and defense, and still ahead in offensive at will damage.     Level 17 Polearm - +2 halberd   2*5% crit 2d10+10 = 2.1 5% crit 2d4+10 = 0.75 2*60% normal 1d10+10 = 18.6 60% normal 1d4+10 = 7.5 2*65% poison at 100% save rate = 6.5 damage = 35.45, plus extra opportunities for opportunity attacks   Level 17 eldritch blast - +2 rod of the keeper, 4th blast   4*5% crit 2d10+5 = 3.2 4*60% normal 1d10+5 = 25.2 damage = 28.4     Obviously the game doesn't normally start at 17th level unless the group chooses so.  By 17th level the human variant listed is 28.95 without poison, better with poison, and can nova with better poison.  It's also not an optimal build and kept simple for comparison.  For example, great weapon master has a more effective bonus with forsight than using eldritch blasts or a mountain dwarf starts with better armor and good ability scores for a blade warlock for the same end result but with better CON and heavy armor in exchange for a slower first few levels.   Damage is largely similar but better with weapons most of the time, even against a strong cantrip like eldritch blast using agonizing blast and poison is a big boost.  The DC's are about 3 lower, but could be higher if a person went with 18 STR instead of 20 for a bit of a drop in damage but there are spells in which to spend slots without saves or attack rolls, or concentration if one is careful.  Illusions may not have a save at all unless an action is taken to actively disbelieve, and the utility SLA invocations are still there so that warlock can have both weapon invocations plus at will alter self, levitate, and arcane eye if chosen.   Anyone is welcome to check my math.  I know I make mistakes too.  Anyone is also welcome to post easy to read refuting math and builds for a nice friendly discussion on the topic.  In my experience and with what I show, agonizing blast doesn't outdamage weapon options and there are more than enough options available to make the warlock into something that melees and casts spells while being competitive with other warlock options.  It really takes 17 levels for eldritch blast to even try to be competitive, imo.
(Reply to #21) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
#24 ObeseBoyWonder May 24, 2015 5:33:34	durntaur wrote:
#25 Mechatarrasque May 24, 2015 14:11:17	The warlock is the simple blaster....I mean caster that someone was looking for.  I have to remind myself of this (and I see from some of the posts that I'm not alone in this) that warlock's get most of their utility from pact types (tome and chain).    If you are rolling a replacement character at high levels, chain is good at dealing with outsiders.  If there were a few more variant familiars and the chain warlock got them standard, I think it would get more love (advantage on saves vs. magic won't help much against goblins and orcs at low levels, but it adds a lot at mid levels [and above] when you are running into young dragons and oni's; I would like sprites and pseudodragons to get somethine similar but different--maybe advantage against mind magic, illusions, and poison).  I think I would like blade warlocks more if there were some more invocations that supported it.   If they are going to add some player options in Out of the Abyss (I don't know if we can assume that), then I suspect warlocks might be one of the big winners (along with sorcerers and maybe clerics and paladins who seem well positioned for antidemon spells [and maybe an Oath of Madness paladin to go with the Oathbreaker]).
#26 spanglemaker May 24, 2015 21:46:59	I agree with you about hopeful gains in the  next Season for the Warlock, more options would be awesome.   Although the Warlock does appear as a One Trick Pony, Eldritch Blast, it really depends on your Game, DM and party.   My most recent game, my Warlock 3, Bard 1 who is the only  Spellcaster in the party ( we have an Eldritch Knigh) everyone else is Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian and Paladin. We were playing a one shot with 2 other players, a Wizard and a Warlock, as their DM and other player (Fighter) was not around. It felt weird being overshadowed by a 3rd level Wizard ( not enough short rests that session), still I was able to use the short rest we got to heal up the Wizard and the Ranger. Which made it Cantrip and Ritual Time (CART) for the rest of the session. Thankfully I was able to grab some rituals from the Wizard, agreed in play. I didn't even need to use a persuasive roll,.   What I concluded is that, Warlocks are really cool, full of flavour. Tomelocks are the Masters of CART especially if they take a level in Bard or Sorcerer. I still want to play a Chain and Blade pact. But my next character is going to be a Fiend Tome Pact 3 Rogue 1,a faceless Halfling (Mask of Many Faces) called Black Eyed Susan. Again the only full spell caster and the only party face.  Hex, Misty Step, Invisibility, Spider Climb are definite spells which means it's a choice of Charm Person, Protection from Evil and Good, Comprehend Languages, or Unseen Servant.    Warlocks are tempting, full of little tricks. Do you want at will illusions, false life, talk to animals, disguise, or do you want new options? Do you want to enhance your Eldritch Blast? What are you prepared to Sacrifice for it? Now if you were playing a third level Warlock Marine Knight, what would your Invocations be? A sniper may take (Eldritch Spear or a Devils Sight) and Agonising Blast,an Infiltrator could choose Mask of Many Faces, (Devils Sight or Book of Ancient Secrets). What invocations would I.R.O.N. G.N.O.M.E choose as a Knowledge Cleric 2 Tomelock 3? I would go Book of Ancient Secrets (Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic) and Repelling Blast.
#27 FrogReaver May 24, 2015 22:31:47	Ashrym, why did you choose to include "poison" in your DPR values for a polearm master warlock at all?     Ashrym, why did you choose to assume a magic weapon polearm for the bladelock but nothing comparable for the eldritch blast warlock?     I'm starting to get the idea that someone doesn't know how to make a fair comparison....
#28 RCanine May 24, 2015 22:39:53	The warlock has the most flexibility of any class, IMO, although I don't think it does anything better than any other class, except for ranged cantrip damage. So what I'd like to see from a guide is more than just "eldritch blast is gold, agonizing blast is gold, play a tiefling, gg."   What'd I'd like to see is:   An analysis of cantrips and rituals the tome pact lock can pick up, and recommendationas on prioriting them. A tome warlock MC another caster gets a huge number of cantrips, so prioritizing is important.  Comparison of familiar options for chain and weapon options for blade Low-level spells that are suprisingly good because of how they scale Spells that are bad at high levels because they don't scale A comparison of invocations that give you free things (like at-will mage armor) versus invocations that require your spell slots (cast slow once/long rest)--imo the later are all fairly weak options. Hidden synergies (like darkness and devil's sight)
(Reply to #27) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
#30 spanglemaker May 25, 2015 2:56:51	RCanine wrote:
#31 FallingIcicle May 25, 2015 5:46:51	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
(Reply to #29) ObeseBoyWonder	Ashrym wrote:
#33 Treantmonklvl20 May 25, 2015 6:01:29	FallingIcicle wrote:
#34 durntaur May 25, 2015 10:35:21	For me, invocations are the draw. IMO, if you can't identify 6 invocations that you'd really want, it may not be the class for you. I can identify 7, or more depending on the concept, that I'd like to see all working together and have difficulty deciding what order to acquire them (a second indicator that this class has a lot to offer).  The at-will spell damage, Pact features, and good to great Patron options are icing on the cake.
(Reply to #32) Ashrym	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
#36 Treantmonklvl20 May 25, 2015 15:52:26	Ashrym wrote:
#37 Treantmonklvl20 May 25, 2015 15:52:38	Ashrym wrote:
#38 durntaur May 25, 2015 16:28:39	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
(Reply to #38) ObeseBoyWonder	durntaur wrote:
#40 Polaris May 25, 2015 18:51:20	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
(Reply to #39) Ashrym	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
#42 durntaur May 25, 2015 19:54:18	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #41) ObeseBoyWonder	Ashrym wrote:
#44 Treantmonklvl20 May 25, 2015 21:13:54	Polaris wrote:
#45 Polaris May 25, 2015 21:29:36	A bard (even a valor bard) can get Hex to use as a bonus 1 action.  I'm sorry but I don't see how the Blade Pact Warlock is better as a gish than the alternatives such as Valor Bard, or even the EK/Wizard multiclass.  Heck, I am still not convinced (because the warlock list is actually very weak) that the bladepact Warlock (esp if you dip into a level of fighter or two of paladin) is better than a Fighter-6/Warlock 14 esp since the Fighter-6 gives you everything you'd want from the bladepact and more (esp since being bladepact forces you to sink a strong investment into strength anyway).
#46 Treantmonklvl20 May 25, 2015 22:16:38	Polaris wrote:
#47 Polaris May 25, 2015 22:22:16	No one has forsight prior to level 17 anyway and most campaigns don't even make it that high, and those that do IMX don't spend that much time there.  In short, I don't rate forsight nearly as high as you do because of this.   As for your crack about levels 1-9 "being a thing", I would point out that Ftr1-2/Warlock 1-2/Ftr3-6 does quite well as a Gish.  You get some minor but useful spellcasting early and you are very capable of melee combat.
#48 Treantmonklvl20 May 25, 2015 22:22:01	Polaris wrote:
#49 Polaris May 25, 2015 22:28:15	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
#50 Polaris May 25, 2015 22:34:21	Ashrym wrote:
#51 Zardnaar May 25, 2015 22:45:59	Bladepact is weak IMHO but it gets really good if you start as a fighter and MC into the warlock. One of my PCs has done that and it is better than a fighter. One level of fighter gives you.   1. Proficiency in con saves. 2. Heavy armor proficiency (reduces MAD) 3. A fighting style (probably duelist or great weapon)   You even get a second wind not that it will ever be very good.     Fiendish Vigor and Armor of Agathys give her a lot of tanking ability, eldritch blast some versatility, she also has the sentinal feat as she is short of bonus actions. Also once you get high enough hex starts lasting for 8 hours so when you short rerst you will still have hex going+ get back your 2-3 spell slots.
#52 durntaur May 25, 2015 23:09:14	Zardnaar wrote:
(Reply to #42) Ashrym	durntaur wrote:
#54 Treantmonklvl20 May 26, 2015 5:58:59	Polaris wrote:
#55 mellored May 26, 2015 6:22:09	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
(Reply to #55) ObeseBoyWonder	mellored wrote:
#57 mellored May 26, 2015 9:06:02	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
(Reply to #57) ObeseBoyWonder	mellored wrote:
#59 Suppoko May 26, 2015 15:17:49	So I have a couple questions, why does a Warlock require Wis? Also, it just seems to me style and flavor wise that a Warlock would go well with a MC into Assassin but what would be a stopping point beyond 3rd?
#60 GladiusLegis May 26, 2015 15:47:26	Suppoko wrote:
#61 Suppoko May 26, 2015 17:08:10	GladiusLegis wrote:
#62 durntaur May 26, 2015 17:22:55	Suppoko wrote:
#63 FunkySpunk May 26, 2015 18:33:39	Suppoko wrote:
#64 RCanine May 26, 2015 21:45:51	Maybe the problem with the blade pact warlock is that people expect too much of the melee component. None of the other options are incredibly strong or change the class. You get:   A pet that doesn't scale Moar cantrips The cantrips are nice, but Eldritch Blast is prett much the ubercantrip, so they're mostly going to be for RP.   I don't think giving the equivalent of shillelagh to the bladelock would be a bad thing, but as a pact option it's pretty close to the rest.
#65 Polaris May 26, 2015 22:23:16	RCanine wrote:
#66 mellored May 27, 2015 6:05:30	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #66) ObeseBoyWonder	mellored wrote:
#68 mellored May 27, 2015 6:24:29	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
(Reply to #59) Mechatarrasque	Suppoko wrote:
#70 Treantmonklvl20 May 27, 2015 8:00:53	mellored wrote:
#71 Treantmonklvl20 May 27, 2015 8:02:26	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
#72 RCanine May 27, 2015 8:36:03	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
(Reply to #72) ObeseBoyWonder	RCanine wrote:
#74 mellored May 27, 2015 9:09:01	RCanine wrote:
#75 BL00DB4NE May 27, 2015 9:50:34	Keying off of a different thread I have been letting my Bladelocks use a house-ruled fighting style baked into the pact called Sword and Sorcery: When wielding one weapon and no shield you gain +1 AC and you may cast cantrips without disadvantage if a hostile creature is within 5'.
(Reply to #72) Ashrym	RCanine wrote:
#77 Zardnaar May 27, 2015 14:10:42	Blade needs mefium or heavy armor to not suck. Profiency to con saves would help. With hex and cha to damage they wont be that far behind a fighter anyway and fighters do not get 3 5th level spellslots to use per short rest. Fighters also do not get the ability to use foresight at level 17 either. The multiclasd warlock sadly seems to be better than the single class one.
#78 Mechatarrasque May 27, 2015 14:40:45	It seems like the moderately armored feat does much of the same things as dipping one level of fighter for the bladelock, and any problem that can be solved with one feat isn't insurmountable.
#79 Polaris May 27, 2015 14:52:03	Mechatarrasque wrote:
#80 mellored May 27, 2015 15:22:18	thinking about it a bit more, i agree with medium armor. that let's them reclaim the mage armor invocation, and reduces MAD. better then simply extra damage, which i agree shouldn't compete with the fighter. also, it's what valor bards get.
(Reply to #80) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#82 Zardnaar May 27, 2015 16:53:03	I was planning on a bladelock guide based on one in play from our game. The fighter dip is the way to go imho. I might repost my problem with gish thread in this section as well. I was the 1st in our group to try one and we have a valor bard and bladelock in the party.
#83 RCanine May 27, 2015 22:22:20	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #83) Ashrym	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #83) Zardnaar	RCanine wrote:
#86 FrogReaver May 28, 2015 0:11:38	What I have learned from this thread is that Polearm master is the only thing that makes a bladelock work.  If you take a bladelock without polearm mastery then you might as well forget damage?
(Reply to #86) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
#88 mellored May 28, 2015 5:37:03	RCanine wrote:
#89 RCanine May 28, 2015 5:50:52	Zardnaar wrote:
#90 Mommy_was_an_Orc May 28, 2015 7:34:42	mellored wrote:
#91 JackOfAllTirades May 28, 2015 10:59:44	RCanine wrote:
#92 Treantmonklvl20 May 28, 2015 11:04:52	mellored wrote:
#93 Zardnaar May 28, 2015 11:16:26	Fighter dip give you heavy armor+proficency in con saves + moar damage and there is virtually no draw back to it as you do not get an extra spell to level 11 anyway. Less opportunity cost than taking a feat as well.    Rolling stats makes the single classed warlock better. Roll an 18 dex and I would consider a rapier using warlock.
#94 durntaur May 28, 2015 11:37:49	JackOfAllTirades wrote:
#95 intently May 28, 2015 12:43:19	What about dipping vs. feats for warlocks other than Pack of the Blade?
(Reply to #88) ObeseBoyWonder	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #94) Zardnaar	durntaur wrote:
#98 Mechatarrasque May 28, 2015 13:39:48	Strength plus heavy armor plus magic and melee (and charisma).   Sounds like a paladin to me.  Fey bladelock seems more magic special forces to me than paladin-lite.  I don't know if fiend bladelock lives up to this, but I see them as more creating a hellish environment around themself and meleeing anyone who dares to enter their space.  GOO bladelock?  Treat the polearm as a spiked chain and you have your own wannabe kyton torture NPC.
#99 durntaur May 28, 2015 13:47:18	Mechatarrasque wrote:
(Reply to #89) Ashrym	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #100) ObeseBoyWonder	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #99) Mechatarrasque	durntaur wrote:
(Reply to #101) Ashrym	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
(Reply to #103) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #104) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
#106 FrogReaver May 29, 2015 0:51:10	So let's look at a warlock that actually makes some use of one of his stronger spells: "hex".   An eldritch blast warlock has nothing else to use his bonus actions on except hex.  A polearm master either loses the hex damage or the bonus action attack damage whenever he has to move hex to change targets.   So at level 12.   An eldritch blast warlock has maxed charisma and using hex does 3d10 + 3d6 + 15 per turn and 6d10 + 6d6 + 15 on a crit.   on a hit = ( 16.5 + 10.5 + 15  ) * 0.6 = 25.2 on a crit = (33 + 21 + 15 ) * 0.05 = 3.45 = 28.65 DPR   ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (I'm going to assume combat is 4 rounds)   I think we can break the polearm master bladelock down into a few different categories.  1 He never uses hex.  2.  He uses hex on the first turn and never has to use a bonus action to move it the whole combat.  3.  He uses hex on the first turn and one subsequent turn.  4.  He uses hex on the first turn and 2 subsequent turns.  5.  He uses hex on every turn.   1.  He never uses hex  (has more spell slots than the hex using warlocks) 1d10 +  5(str) + 3(cha)   *  0.6 = 8.1 2d10 + 5(str) + 3(cha)  * 0.05 = .95 1d4 + 5(str) + 3(cha)   *   0.6   = 6.3 2d4 + 5(str) + 3(cha)  * 0.05 = .65   =2*(8.1 + .95) + (6.3+.65) = 25.05     2.   He uses hex on the first turn and never has to use a bonus action to move it the whole combat  (Best case scenario) Turn 1:   1d10 + 1d6 + 8  * 0.6 = 10.2 2d10 + 2d6 + 8  * 0.5 = 1.3 =23   Other Turns: 1d4+1d6 +8 * 0.6 = 8.4 2d4+2d6+8 * 0.5 = 1 =23+8.4+1 = 32.4   Combined DPR = (23 + 32.4*3)   /  4   = 30.05     3.  3.  He uses hex on the first turn and one subsequent turn. Turn 1 and other hex bonus action turn:    1d10 + 1d6 + 8  * 0.6 = 10.2 2d10 + 2d6 + 8  * 0.5 = 1.3 =23   Other Turns: 1d4+1d6 +8 * 0.6 = 8.4 2d4+2d6+8 * 0.5 = 1 =23+8.4+1 = 32.4   Combined DPR = (23*2 + 32.4*2)   /  4   = 27.7   4.  He uses hex on the first turn and 2 subsequent turns. Combined DPR = (23*3 + 32.4)   /  4   = 25.35   5.  He uses hex on every turn. Combined DPR = (23*4)   /  4   = 23     Basically hex and polearm master is only slightly better than hex and eldritch blast against a boss enemy that lasts 4 rounds.  Even then it's less than 5% higher DPR than the eldritch blast and hex version.   Considering the eldritch blast and hex version ties or beats out the polearm master version in all other cases then I'd say we have shown that at level 12 which it's pretty much a toss up.  It pretty much comes down to whether you want better OA's or better ranged damage.     Personally I still dont see the appeal of the bladelock at this level.
#107 durntaur May 29, 2015 0:31:00	Are you not accounting for a second attack from Thirsting Blade?
(Reply to #106) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #107) Ashrym	durntaur wrote:
#110 durntaur May 29, 2015 0:32:27	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #108) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #110) FrogReaver	durntaur wrote:
(Reply to #110) Ashrym	durntaur wrote:
(Reply to #112) FrogReaver	FrogReaver wrote:
#115 durntaur May 29, 2015 0:57:07	Just did greatsword (or maul) + hex * 4 rounds...25.1DPR   On hit : (2d6 + 1d6 + 8) * 0.6 = 11.1 On crit: (4d6 + 2d6 + 8) * 0.05 = 1.45   DPR = 2*(11.1 + 1.45) = 25.1   Edit: of course, I'm ignoring feats. Let's see what happens with GWM.
(Reply to #113) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
#117 durntaur May 29, 2015 0:58:31	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #115) FrogReaver	durntaur wrote:
(Reply to #111) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #117) FrogReaver	durntaur wrote:
#121 durntaur May 29, 2015 1:12:25	durntaur wrote:
#122 durntaur May 29, 2015 1:07:25	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #121) Ashrym	durntaur wrote:
(Reply to #119) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #123) FrogReaver	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #122) FrogReaver	durntaur wrote:
#127 durntaur May 29, 2015 1:35:44	Yeah, bonus action attack due to crit trigger produces nominal added average DPR and is hindered at least first round due to casting Hex. However, if you use GWM without the -5/+10, DPR averages to 26.04125 (assuming 1x Hex in 4 rounds) from 25.1 without GWM bonus action attack.   Edit: However, it's interesting to note that average DPR for greatsword/maul (no feat) versus polearm (with feat) are essentially equal. Action economy is better on gs/m but polearm saves not having to use Hex.
(Reply to #124) Ashrym	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #119) ObeseBoyWonder	Ashrym wrote:
#130 Zardnaar May 29, 2015 3:21:40	Here is my partners warlock from our games, she gambles with rolling the dice an got 2 17s and a 14 on 4d6 drop the lowest. Half Elf Ftr 1/Warlock 8 AC 23 (full plate, +2 shield, ring of protection +1) Max hp 86 Strength 20 Dexterity 14 Con 18 Int 13 Wis 14 Cha 18   +10 stength save, +9 Con Save,  Feats Sentinal   Stat Bumps =2 strength (has +2 charisma item as well)   Other Stuff   Fighting Style Duelist Fiendpact Fiedish Life Thirsting BLade Dark Blessing Pact of the Blade Disguise Self at will Darkones Own Luck Fey Presence Devils Sight   Magic Items Mask of Something or Other (bad hand writing) +2 charisma, fey presence1/long rest +1 Rapier +2 shield +1 Ring of Protection Robe of Eyes Broom of Flying    The magic items have come from the Quests of Doom Adventures made by Necromancer Games.    Spells Known Eldritch BLast Friends Thunderclap   Hex Burning Hands Armor of Agathys Scorching Ray Comprehend Languages Fireall Fireshield Banishment Gaseous Form       With her high ability scores she has not really felt the need to max out the combat invocations and has chosen fun ones such as disguise self.
(Reply to #129) Ashrym	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
#132 Polaris May 29, 2015 6:24:46	Ashrym wrote:
#133 Cascade.rpga May 29, 2015 7:01:46	Ashrym wrote:
#134 SailorNash May 29, 2015 7:44:34	Probably my favorite class in the game, at least on paper. In practice we almost never seem to hit any short rests, and if we do convince everyone to stop it'll be for the night. Two spells just can't last an entire day, not when one is Hex and the other is either a second Hex for a second battle or an Invisibility for an emergency escape.   (Makes me wish for a Warlock feature that allows Pact Magic to actually refresh as Enconter-level spells, as what seems to have been the intent.)   I've always wanted to try a Hexblade...maybe that would work out a bit better, starting with one level of Fighter. But for the full caster, it can turn into nothing but Eldritch Blast spam for lack of any other available options.   I also agree with Warlock 2 being such a great dip, with there being so many other high CHA classes in the game (and so many less-than-stellar capstones). But it is annoying when even the Paladin is throwing Eldritch blasts. Even a feat would get you that and Hex, though without the Agonizing Blast. So to be a successful Warlock, I think you'd have to find a niche other than simply blasting to get the most fun out of the class.
(Reply to #132) ObeseBoyWonder	Polaris wrote:
#136 FrogReaver May 29, 2015 9:27:49	I'm just happy we found a niche for the polearm master bladelock.   Damage comparable enough to eldritch blast and hex without needing hex.  This frees up a spell slot or multiple spell slots that can be used for other things.
(Reply to #136) ObeseBoyWonder	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #132) Ashrym	Polaris wrote:
#139 durntaur May 29, 2015 11:13:16	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
(Reply to #133) Ashrym	Cascade.rpga wrote:
(Reply to #135) Ashrym	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
(Reply to #137) FrogReaver	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
(Reply to #141) ObeseBoyWonder	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #142) ObeseBoyWonder	FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #143) Ashrym	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
(Reply to #145) ObeseBoyWonder	Ashrym wrote:
#147 ORC_Animus May 30, 2015 12:08:30	I’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
#148 awaken_D_M_golem May 30, 2015 12:39:56	What would you think about: add Shield Proficiency to the Blade'lock? add Cleric/Paladin style warcaster-lite but only with the Blade (not other weapons)?
(Reply to #148) Ashrym	awaken_D_M_golem wrote:
#150 Zardnaar May 30, 2015 15:15:53	Giving the warlock shield proficency and changing its saves to con and cha I think would help. When you onbly have 1 or 2 spells available losing them to a flunked concentration roll (hex) is not that much fun. It is usually annoying when that happens but other classes tend to have more spell slots anyway.
(Reply to #149) ObeseBoyWonder	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #151) Ashrym	ObeseBoyWonder wrote:
#153 intently May 31, 2015 10:36:28	Ashrym wrote: