Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 warpiglet Feb 22, 2015 8:45:15	and i am interested in recommendations for playing clerics and wizards who can be better combatants without multiclassing.    Everything from feat selection to score placement and race is fair game.  Keep in mind you want to be viable in your chosen class and not gimped to worthlessness...   The same exercise with stealthy Paladins etc would be great to hear as well.  For this discussion, just no multiclassing...
#2 FrogReaver Feb 22, 2015 9:11:29	warpiglet wrote:
#3 FrogReaver Feb 22, 2015 9:14:57	warpiglet wrote:
#4 Bumpo Feb 22, 2015 11:46:03	I agree with FrogReaver - Stealthy paladins are easy - Rapier & Shield & Duellist style works well, and with your high DEX you are an even better ranged attacker than a STR based paladin. Lots of ways to get the skill Stealth. Stealthy Paladins work best with Vengeance and Ancient Oaths (IMHO).   I"ve got an idea for a city based Oath of Vengeance Paladin with the Guild Artisan background - mild mannered guild member by day, masked guild enforcer at night....
#5 Kalani Feb 22, 2015 12:06:15	I  too agree that stealthy paladins are easy... Stupidly easy.   1st level: Var. Human DEXadin; Stealth proficiency; Rapier + Shield; Scale Armor and medium armor mastery. Upgrade to Half-Plate when funding becomes available, and you equal Plate+shield in terms of AC - with no disadvantage on stealth checks. For fighting style, duelist (as mentioned above) works wonderful, but for added durability you can always consider the defense style. Stats are DEX, CON, and CHA. Wizards I would skip armor unless multiclassing. It is a mathematical trap..... Light armor trades a 1st level spell slot for a feat, and offers no mechanical advantage (unless magical). Medium armor trades a 1st level spell slot for two feats, but reduces DEX requirement.... Unfortunately, those two feats could easily have been spent on +4 DEX (or something else) so this too is a trap.  Instead, prepare (and cast) mage armor and shield. At 18th level, you can cast shield and/or misty step at will.  Weapon proficiency is easy... Simply take the weapon master feat, which gives proficiency in 4 weapons of choice. Attack Stat: I would focus DEX, and pick up a finesse weapon.  Durability: Resilient (CON) and boosting CON is good for any class - spellcasters especially. For added durability you might consider the toughness feat for a few extra HPs. This would give you comparable HP to a rogue/cleric. Stats are DEX, CON, and INT Cleric Clerics have several built-in options for improving their combat prowess, from domain choice to spell selection. The Life, and Nature domains are both off-tanks, while the Tempest and War domains are capable warriors. All four gain proficiency with heavy armor, with the latter two also gaining proficiency in martial weapons. Stats are STR/DEX (Dex clerics are a viable option), CON and WIS.
#6 OrwellianHaggis Feb 22, 2015 14:08:51	Cleric or wizard with armoured feats would increase survivability, and the feat which gives you fighter's manoeuvres would increase combat effectiveness. Give the character a decent strength score (or the right magic item) and a longsword or polearm for melee damage.   A wizard who took the false life spell would gain durability at low level, though you'd miss a turn attacking to do so.   This is without looking at the books.
#7 OrwellianHaggis Feb 22, 2015 14:12:21	Kalani, what do you mean? How does taking a feat trade a spell slot? Do you mean you could choose a feat that gives you extra spells instead?
#8 Sea-Envy Feb 22, 2015 14:55:33	OrwellianHaggis wrote:
#9 FrogReaver Feb 22, 2015 15:09:44	If you want a str based melee wizard then consider a mountain dwarf. (Gets some weapon proficiences)   a dex based high elf works really well too for a wizard (should give some weapon proficiences too)   Variant human and the extra feat works good too.
#10 FuelDrop Feb 22, 2015 15:38:07	Mountain Dwarf Wizard. Comes with several weapon proficiencies, plus medium armour proficiency, plus boosts to both strength and constitution. You can make one hell of a badass fighter-wizard with that, I'm sure.   Half-orc rogue (assassin) is incredibly deadly due to Savage Attacks, which synergises with sneak attack really well. So you're a rogue... but you're over 6 foot tall!
#11 Kayal Feb 22, 2015 15:54:55	OrwellianHaggis wrote:
#12 Kayal Feb 22, 2015 16:50:24	A weapon-wielding mage? Here's some things to consider.   Mage Armor provides a better AC than any of the light armors in the book. If you can get your Dex mod to +2 or +3, then mage armor is even better than medium armor ... if you can get it to +5, it's as good as platemail. Of course, you'll have to renew it every 8 hours. And you won't be able to wear magic armor. Or shields. Depending on how your DM handles magic iterms, that may or may not be a problem.   Gainging proficiency in armor and shields without multiclassing would require feats. You would need at least three feats to become proficient in heavy armor, which means you couldn't get there before 12th level (8th as a variant human). Of course, by the time you were moderately armored, you would have a shield proficiency, as well. That's +2 AC even with a mundane shield; more if you can get your hands on a magical one.   If you go the "finesse and mage armor" route, you could easily sink a feat into weapon master. (If you go the heavy armor route, you probably can't afford another feat). As others have said, you could also play a Dwarf or an Elf to get some racial weapon proficiencies front-loaded. You would lose the variant human option of starting with a feat, but at that point you wouldn't necessarily need it.   If you go Dwarf, you'll will have more HPs (something Wizards normally do't have many of).   But if you go Elf, you'll start with a better Dex and your weapon proficiencies will include both a martial finesse weapon and a martial ranged weapon.   As much as I hate to say it, I think an Elf is the way to go. Then, if you use a finesse weapon and rely on mage armor for AC, you will achieve your concept without spending a single feat. That means that any feats you do pick-up can be selected to make you better at this, instead of just getting you to the bare minimum of what you wanted.   (Note that a Mountain Dwarf gets proficiency in light and medium armor, but not shields, plus some decent strength-based weapons. By wielding a warhammer or battleaxe two-handed, they would get a little more weapon damage than the Elf, but at the expense of needing both strength and dexterity for melee, ranged, and AC. The Dwarf could, however, gain proficiency in shields with just one feat, instead of two ... but without magical equipment, that still "caps out" at a lower AC than the "max dex plus mage armor" combo).
#13 Varden_Khol Feb 22, 2015 17:53:04	Kalani wrote:
#14 Kalani Feb 22, 2015 18:44:26	Varden_Khol wrote:
#15 Kayal Feb 22, 2015 19:12:26	Kalani wrote:
#16 Kalani Feb 22, 2015 19:26:24	I swear I read somewhere that you could not take the armor feat(s) if you were already proficient in the respective armor (light, medium, heavy). Perhaps I was wrong. In that case, the Dwarf wizard's best option is to take the moderately armored feat and pick up a shield. +2 AC (shield) and +1 Dex for the cost of a feat. Limits you to an arcane focus however, but that shouldn't be a problem - just use an arcane focus (staff), which doubles as an improvised quarterstaff. This gives you a solid opportunity attack, with a good chance of your DM allowing you to add your proficiency bonus to hit.    If your DM doesn't allow you to add proficiency bonus to hit, you can always pick up the Tavern Brawler feat, which will grant you a d4 unarmed strike, and proficiency with all improvised weapons (including arcane foci). I don't believe the feat is worth the cost myself, but its always an option - and there are few feats (in the PHB) that compete for a wizards attention (spell sniper, war caster, and elemental adept being the most popular).    At your soonest convenience, pick up a magical staff, most/all of which double as a magic quarterstaff in addition to an arcane focus. Even without attack bonuses, magical staves will overcome damage resistance to non-magical weapons, so that is a plus.   Magical staves are the most common magical focus that a wizard can acquire. There are several scattered through Hoard, Rise, and Lost Mines for example - and they come up with semi-frequency on the random loot tables.
#17 slumgum Feb 22, 2015 23:14:38	I think the best way to be a combatant wizard is to pick up moderately armored feat, and then either Warcaster or Resilient: Constitution to help them with concentration checks.  If you want a martial weapon choose the appropriate elf or dwarf race to get Longsword/Rapier/Warhammer.  But you main attack should be Vampiric Touch, a 3rd level spell.   This gives you 3d6 per attack at level 5 while using a shield.    The other option is to use Polearm Master + Haste to try and keep up with combatant type classes, but this requires an extra feat.  Polearm Master, Weapon Master, and probably still want a way to gain advantage on concentration checks so you don't lose your haste.     Clerics don't even need any fancy character building though.  A couple of the Domains are just built to be in your face while playing.  War & Tempest both gain martial weapons and heavy armor.  War Domain clerics get the War Priest ability which gives them a version of the extra attack feature as early as level 1 (Limited number of uses though).  Tempest can use their reaction to deal lightning or thunder damage whenever they get hit.   Nature Clerics get Heavy armor and easy access to Shillelagh.  And at 8th level they can all add damage to their attacks once per turn.
#18 cowleymen Feb 23, 2015 0:07:40	I play a Variant human, took lightly armored, IM a transmuter, and I use alter self. Though to be honest, just go Eldritch knight or cleric. You get a lot of these features way easier, and after 5th level, you melee will never catch up.
#19 Yunru Feb 23, 2015 2:41:48	Bah. Sorcerer > Wizars for going weapon swinging. Sorcery Points let you convert your spell slots into fewer, bigger spell slots that can be used for self-buffing (Haste, for example) and you've effectively the best light armour, permanently. You don't get a Fighting Style or shields, but then neither does the Wizard.