Playing Old Guys - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SneakyKGB Jan 21, 2015 14:28:11	This is probably a silly question to ask, but it's kind of bothering me. I was talking with one of my players about a new character he wanted to make, and he said he was working on a really old crotchety dwarf mage. That's great, and I like the creativity in the character he's building, but it reminded me of something that always bugs me with characters that are further on in their years. Say Gendrig the Dwarf Wizard has a century or two under his belt, during which he's been studying magic intensely. Enter the campaign, and he's a level 1 wizard barely capable of hucking a fireball or two without sitting down for a rest. See the problem? I have trouble justifying the level vs. hypothetical experience aspect of characters like this. The player suggested it was something along the lines of the character not taking his opponents seriously enough to utilize his full power, and that the rising EXP wasn't indicative of his growing skill, but of his rising countermeasures to meet ever more powerful foes. Which is the best explanation for it I've ever heard, but it doesn't exactly work with all character types. Anybody else have anything to say, or any general ideas about playing more venerably aged adventurers?
#2 iserith Jan 21, 2015 14:35:16	Basic Rules, page 6 addresses this in part: Typically, a character starts at 1st level and advances in level by adventuring and gaining experience points (XP). A 1st-level character is inexperienced in the adventuring world, although he or she might have been a soldier or a pirate and done dangerous things before. Starting off at 1st level marks your character’s entry into the adventuring life. If you’re already familiar with the game, or if you are joining an existing D&D campaign, your DM might decide to have you begin at a higher level, on the assumption that your character has already survived a few harrowing adventures.
#3 daspian Jan 21, 2015 15:21:05	also... at least if he's up for bending his story etc..... he could have just started training in magic recently, perhaps for a majority of his life he was a simple dwarf (maybe a smith, or a laborer) but from recent events, perhaps some change in his life gave him the opportunity to study in magic (mayhaps someone discovered he had magical potential, and although he was quite old, decided to start teaching this dwarf) or maybe, he had saved up alot of money for retirement, but decided to spend some of it on magical training at Hogwarts... ;P age doesn't necessarily mean experience, wisdom or intelligence etc.
(Reply to #2) SneakyKGB	iserith wrote:
#5 jaappleton Jan 21, 2015 16:24:58	It's simple. Anyone beginning at level one is just starting to really begin their adventuring career. That's where their XP is earned, so to speak. Oh, yes, I was a Cleric for 20 years before I left the Temple of Pelor to begin my journey. 20 years... Reading scripture, training, and helping townsfolk. Not fighting bandits, traveling across treacherous lands, and battling vampires. That's a very simple and easy way to justify it.
#6 Illithidbix Jan 21, 2015 16:40:35	XP represents the fragments of soul that are spiritually consumed by the PC's as they slaughter their way across the world. It can also persist as a residue on gold and similar heavy metals/gems and can be simiarly passively consumed. Hitpoints represent a hardened protective layer of such spiritual residue that the body excretes over the skin (and held objects!) to protect itself. Most people holding down sensible jobs and staying out of the way of trouble don't encounter much of this throughout their lives. And naturally such consumption only leads to greater hunger.
#7 grendel111111 Jan 21, 2015 16:40:59	Ever met a physisist who has studies physics for years, he understands the internal combustion engine and how it works, but ask him to fix one and he is completely lost. He has been studying the theory and not how to put it to use in that specific way. Same with the academic mage, he knows how a fireball is created in theory, he studied it's effects and stressors, but the college sure as hell would never let him try to actually cast it, in case they got sued.
(Reply to #6) SneakyKGB	Illithidbix wrote:
#9 CCS Jan 21, 2015 17:26:59	I have a friend who'll often play an elderly, ecentric priest of Pelor. We have him statted up as an 11th lv 3x/Pathfinder cleric - all the stat/feat/save/hp increases. Then we applied the venerable age penalties from 1e. Hes equipped via the WBL guidelines for the average lv of the party. As for his spell casting ability, well.... he's a bit senile. So it varies. Most often he's casting at the average lv of whatever party he's in. Sometimes, determined randomly, though hell cast either above or below. Very often, because of the leadership feat, he's also accompanied by an exasperated young acolyte - whom he can never remember their name - assigned to keep him out of trouble (he IS an important member of the local church). Imagine if Dr. Who was a senile priest of Pelor & his girl sidekick was the acolyte.... Great fun has been had by sending this character on multiple seemingly contradictory adventures. The narrative over 8 years of play has become a question of: Wich adventures are "real", wich are in his head, & wich ones are merely confused tales being related to underlings etc.
#10 Illithidbix Jan 21, 2015 18:59:01	SneakyKGB wrote:
#11 Nevvur Jan 21, 2015 19:29:38	Old character, level one... I see two general ideas, though others might think of more. First, as others said, theory does not equal practical application. A lifetime adventuring isn't the same as a lifetime of getting old. An old guardsman could have spent his career in a quiet town that barely had a use for guards, and now he finally wants to do something with his life. A wizard might be self-taught, and only recently had a revelation that will allow him to further his abilities, while a sorcerer had always been terrified of his innate abilities and refused to use them, until something happened where he should have. The other generic concept is that you lost your original abilities somehow. Maybe the character took a break and got out of shape since his glory days, or suffered a permanent disability. Perhaps a magical effect sapped him of his powers -- potentially caused by a villain you can include in your campaign. A crisis of faith or falling out of favor with one's god could push the reset button on holy types. There's also the old amnesia trope. I suppose the player could say his "level 1" character is in fact much more powerful, but is holding back... for some reason. This would be difficult to navigate when terrible things happen to the party, as they inevitably do.
#12 Jamwes Jan 22, 2015 10:03:19	I usually have issues when someone wants to play an extreme, such as super old or young. Are they doing this for role play reasons or are they trying to get a mechanical advantage? My level of tollerance when someone says "but my character has been studying magic for a hundred years so I should be able to cast higher level spells" is rather thin. Now, if it's just for role play reasons, then great. Stat it up as such with low physical and high mental stats. As for the uneven feel for a character who is so much older being at the same power level as a younger person, not everyone advances at the same pace. There are people who can graduate college in 4 years and people who do it in 8 or more. When they get their diploma they are at the same point of educational power, IE first level characters. If anything, I might give the older character an easier time on some knowledge rolls due to his time studying and life knowledge. It's the same as reducing the difficulty for a Cleric rolling a Religion check for his God as opposed to what a Wizard would roll. Really, it's the same as the different races starting ages. Dwarves reach age of adulthood at 50, elves at 100, halflings at 20, and humans in their late teens. What did that elf do for 100 years to become a first level wizard when the human took less than 20? By using the logic that years alive should equate to experience, then all elves should have 5 times more experience than all humans. And remember, just because you study something for years doesn't mean you're good at it. It's like the old joke, Q: What do you call the man who graduated last in his class in medical school? A: Doctor. While the top and bottom graduating members of a class have the same experience, one got more out of it than the other. It will take longer for the bottom doctor to have as much knowledge as the top doctor. The same could be said for that Dwarf wizard. Perhaps when he was born he only had a 10 int. Over the years of his life he trained hard and got his int up to 15. It was a hard trail for him, but he did it and is now ready to start his adventuring career.
#13 Steerpike84 Jan 22, 2015 14:34:16	Having lost levels through years of idleness is a perfectly sound backstory for an old adventurer. Keeping up skills takes routine practice, whether it's swordplay or spellcasting. I once played an old 1st level paladin who used to be and epic 15th level hero, but failed his princess miserably and hasn't touched a sword for 25 years.
#14 Pandaemonius Jan 22, 2015 18:06:43	SneakyKGB wrote:
#15 supreme_slayer Jan 22, 2015 21:47:27	Well, besides just not having the character in a level 1 campaign, you could always go the obvious route of he forget all of his spells over the years, from not having to use them in combat and all that.
#16 Forgember Jan 23, 2015 8:36:43	I played an ancient dwarven Sorcerer back in 3.x, he was from a more traditional dwarven society where arcane magic use was frowned apon so when his power/potential manifested in his youth he just sorta swept it under the rug and continued with his career, a locksmith. After over 300 years of being a very sucsessfull locksmith my character no longer felt he needed to hide his budding magical talents and decided it was time to see the world, he left his acumulated wealth to his family and hit the road. He eventually died in an exploading familiar accident but thats neither here nor there, character was great fun.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

SneakyKGB

Jan 21, 2015 14:28:11

This is probably a silly question to ask, but it's kind of bothering me. I was talking with one of my players about a new character he wanted to make, and he said he was working on a really old crotchety dwarf mage. That's great, and I like the creativity in the character he's building, but it reminded me of something that always bugs me with characters that are further on in their years.

Say Gendrig the Dwarf Wizard has a century or two under his belt, during which he's been studying magic intensely. Enter the campaign, and he's a level 1 wizard barely capable of hucking a fireball or two without sitting down for a rest. See the problem? I have trouble justifying the level vs. hypothetical experience aspect of characters like this. The player suggested it was something along the lines of the character not taking his opponents seriously enough to utilize his full power, and that the rising EXP wasn't indicative of his growing skill, but of his rising countermeasures to meet ever more powerful foes. Which is the best explanation for it I've ever heard, but it doesn't exactly work with all character types.

Anybody else have anything to say, or any general ideas about playing more venerably aged adventurers?

iserith

Jan 21, 2015 14:35:16

Basic Rules, page 6 addresses this in part:

Typically, a character starts at 1st level and advances in level by adventuring and gaining experience points (XP). A 1st-level character is inexperienced in the adventuring world, although he or she might have been a soldier or a pirate and done dangerous things before.

Starting off at 1st level marks your character’s entry into the adventuring life. If you’re already familiar with the game, or if you are joining an existing D&D campaign, your DM might decide to have you begin at a higher level, on the assumption that your character has already survived a few harrowing adventures.

daspian

Jan 21, 2015 15:21:05

also... at least if he's up for bending his story etc..... he could have just started training in magic recently, perhaps for a majority of his life he was a simple dwarf (maybe a smith, or a laborer) but from recent events, perhaps some change in his life gave him the opportunity to study in magic (mayhaps someone discovered he had magical potential, and although he was quite old, decided to start teaching this dwarf) or maybe, he had saved up alot of money for retirement, but decided to spend some of it on magical training at Hogwarts... ;P

age doesn't necessarily mean experience, wisdom or intelligence etc.

(Reply to #2)

SneakyKGB

iserith wrote:

jaappleton

Jan 21, 2015 16:24:58

It's simple.

Anyone beginning at level one is just starting to really begin their adventuring career. That's where their XP is earned, so to speak.

Oh, yes, I was a Cleric for 20 years before I left the Temple of Pelor to begin my journey. 20 years... Reading scripture, training, and helping townsfolk. Not fighting bandits, traveling across treacherous lands, and battling vampires.

That's a very simple and easy way to justify it.

Illithidbix

Jan 21, 2015 16:40:35

XP represents the fragments of soul that are spiritually consumed by the PC's as they slaughter their way across the world.

It can also persist as a residue on gold and similar heavy metals/gems and can be simiarly passively consumed.

Hitpoints represent a hardened protective layer of such spiritual residue that the body excretes over the skin (and held objects!) to protect itself.

Most people holding down sensible jobs and staying out of the way of trouble don't encounter much of this throughout their lives.

And naturally such consumption only leads to greater hunger.

grendel111111

Jan 21, 2015 16:40:59

Ever met a physisist who has studies physics for years, he understands the internal combustion engine and how it works, but ask him to fix one and he is completely lost. He has been studying the theory and not how to put it to use in that specific way. Same with the academic mage, he knows how a fireball is created in theory, he studied it's effects and stressors, but the college sure as hell would never let him try to actually cast it, in case they got sued.

(Reply to #6)

SneakyKGB

Illithidbix wrote:

CCS

Jan 21, 2015 17:26:59

I have a friend who'll often play an elderly, ecentric priest of Pelor. We have him statted up as an 11th lv 3x/Pathfinder cleric - all the stat/feat/save/hp increases. Then we applied the venerable age penalties from 1e. Hes equipped via the WBL guidelines for the average lv of the party. As for his spell casting ability, well.... he's a bit senile. So it varies. Most often he's casting at the average lv of whatever party he's in. Sometimes, determined randomly, though hell cast either above or below. Very often, because of the leadership feat, he's also accompanied by an exasperated young acolyte - whom he can never remember their name - assigned to keep him out of trouble (he IS an important member of the local church). Imagine if Dr. Who was a senile priest of Pelor & his girl sidekick was the acolyte.... Great fun has been had by sending this character on multiple seemingly contradictory adventures. The narrative over 8 years of play has become a question of: Wich adventures are "real", wich are in his head, & wich ones are merely confused tales being related to underlings etc.

#10

Illithidbix

Jan 21, 2015 18:59:01

SneakyKGB wrote:

#11

Nevvur

Jan 21, 2015 19:29:38

Old character, level one... I see two general ideas, though others might think of more.

First, as others said, theory does not equal practical application. A lifetime adventuring isn't the same as a lifetime of getting old. An old guardsman could have spent his career in a quiet town that barely had a use for guards, and now he finally wants to do something with his life. A wizard might be self-taught, and only recently had a revelation that will allow him to further his abilities, while a sorcerer had always been terrified of his innate abilities and refused to use them, until something happened where he should have.

The other generic concept is that you lost your original abilities somehow. Maybe the character took a break and got out of shape since his glory days, or suffered a permanent disability. Perhaps a magical effect sapped him of his powers -- potentially caused by a villain you can include in your campaign. A crisis of faith or falling out of favor with one's god could push the reset button on holy types. There's also the old amnesia trope.

I suppose the player could say his "level 1" character is in fact much more powerful, but is holding back... for some reason. This would be difficult to navigate when terrible things happen to the party, as they inevitably do.

#12

Jamwes

Jan 22, 2015 10:03:19

I usually have issues when someone wants to play an extreme, such as super old or young. Are they doing this for role play reasons or are they trying to get a mechanical advantage? My level of tollerance when someone says "but my character has been studying magic for a hundred years so I should be able to cast higher level spells" is rather thin.

Now, if it's just for role play reasons, then great. Stat it up as such with low physical and high mental stats. As for the uneven feel for a character who is so much older being at the same power level as a younger person, not everyone advances at the same pace. There are people who can graduate college in 4 years and people who do it in 8 or more. When they get their diploma they are at the same point of educational power, IE first level characters. If anything, I might give the older character an easier time on some knowledge rolls due to his time studying and life knowledge. It's the same as reducing the difficulty for a Cleric rolling a Religion check for his God as opposed to what a Wizard would roll.

Really, it's the same as the different races starting ages. Dwarves reach age of adulthood at 50, elves at 100, halflings at 20, and humans in their late teens. What did that elf do for 100 years to become a first level wizard when the human took less than 20? By using the logic that years alive should equate to experience, then all elves should have 5 times more experience than all humans.

And remember, just because you study something for years doesn't mean you're good at it. It's like the old joke, Q: What do you call the man who graduated last in his class in medical school? A: Doctor. While the top and bottom graduating members of a class have the same experience, one got more out of it than the other. It will take longer for the bottom doctor to have as much knowledge as the top doctor. The same could be said for that Dwarf wizard. Perhaps when he was born he only had a 10 int. Over the years of his life he trained hard and got his int up to 15. It was a hard trail for him, but he did it and is now ready to start his adventuring career.

#13

Steerpike84

Jan 22, 2015 14:34:16

Having lost levels through years of idleness is a perfectly sound backstory for an old adventurer. Keeping up skills takes routine practice, whether it's swordplay or spellcasting.

I once played an old 1st level paladin who used to be and epic 15th level hero, but failed his princess miserably and hasn't touched a sword for 25 years.

#14

Pandaemonius

Jan 22, 2015 18:06:43

SneakyKGB wrote:

#15

supreme_slayer

Jan 22, 2015 21:47:27

Well, besides just not having the character in a level 1 campaign, you could always go the obvious route of he forget all of his spells over the years, from not having to use them in combat and all that.

#16

Forgember

Jan 23, 2015 8:36:43

I played an ancient dwarven Sorcerer back in 3.x, he was from a more traditional dwarven society where arcane magic use was frowned apon so when his power/potential manifested in his youth he just sorta swept it under the rug and continued with his career, a locksmith. After over 300 years of being a very sucsessfull locksmith my character no longer felt he needed to hide his budding magical talents and decided it was time to see the world, he left his acumulated wealth to his family and hit the road. He eventually died in an exploading familiar accident but thats neither here nor there, character was great fun.