I am very interested in making Poison-use a distinct part of my Assassin Rogue, but I'm underwhelmed by the rules as-is, even with the extra options found in the new DMG.
My big concerns:
1) High Price
2) Low DC
3) Low damage/effects
Combined, I feel like an Assassin doesn't get enough "Bang for their buck" and that an average campaign won't see a lot of poison use, despite it being presented as a special feature of the Assassin.
For example, Drow Poison and Serpent Venom are both 200g for a dose, which is either 3 arrows/bolts or 1 successful attack with a weapon. At DC 11 (Serpent Venom), we have 1-3 chances for an additional 3d6 damages (save for half) or DC 13 (Drow Poison) for the Poisoned state.
Applying the Poison takes an action and only lasts for a minute, so you either that Action in a combat or know that you'll be facing a target worth poisoning within the 1 minute application window.
Of the perceived flaws, I think the most easily remedied are the cost-per-dose and DC. My problem with the effects is that the DC and Cost are too low/high (respectively) to justify the mediocre effects...if the other prongs were adjusted, the effects would be a flavorful addition to the game.
My suggestions/inquiries:
1) Does proficiency with the Poisoner's Kit grant any modification to the Poison's DC? Should it? Arguably a trained poisoner (as represented by Proficiency and your Proficiency Die) would craft stronger/more refined versions of a poison that were harder to resist, or would otherwise be better at distributing them. A consumed poison might be cleverly brewed to remove the taste/smell that gives it away, thus making it harder to detect before you've swallowed a lethal dose.
Proposition: Proficiency with the Poisoner's Kit allows you to add your Proficiency Bonus (half bonus?) to the DC.
2) Should the less exotic poisons have their costs lowered? Purple Worm/Wyvern/Midnight Tears sound suitably rare and would be reserved for the Special Someone who absolutely needs to die...but some of the others seem "common" enough that they could be a frequent part of an assassin's trade. While ignoble, being known for having scorpion toxin on your arrows/dagger is a great trademark and could add a lot fo the mythos of the Assassin sub-class or anyone else who chooses to specialize in poisons.
As comparison: You can buy 3 healing potions for the price of 1 dose of Assassin's Blood. You can buy 2 doses of Drow Poison for the cost of a Warhorse. If you were to craft the Assassin's Blood in your spare time, it would take a little over two weeks (150/2=75; 5gp worth per day for 15 days). I think this touches on a flaw in the Crafting System as well, but that is for another day.
Proposition: Reduction of price-per-dose for the lower-end poisons by anywhere from 1/3 to 1/5. While still a money-sink, they won't be so expensive as to prompt the decision of "I can spend my coin better elsewhere".
3) Crafting/Harvesting Poison From Natural Resources: Per the DMG, its a DC20 Intelligence (Nature) Check. Proficiency with the Poisoner's Kit replaces Nature Proficiency. Again, that feels too high for the value gained and that puts Harvesting outside the grasp of most characters who aren't also very Intelligent. (+5 to Int and full Proficiency Bonus only gives you a 50/50 shot of successfully harvesting).
Proposition: The Harvest DC should be tied to the DC of the poison itself. DC 15 to resist the effects of Torpor? Then you Intelligence (Nature/Poisoner's Kit) vs. DC 15 to harvest the mushroom (?) that causes the Torpor Effect.
My ideas are mostly for discussion purpose and I welcome the opinions of others. Maybe you think they're overpowered (which probably means I'm missing something)...or you've already developed a House Rule that allows for industrious use of this devlish art without being game-breaking.
Thanks!
That helps melee combatants a bit with respect to injury poisons, but is less useful for ranged attackers unless they manage to recover their poisoned bolts/arrows mid combat and reuse them in the same battle (which I suppose I've seen on the walking dead...)
MHolmanEsq wrote:
200 GP is still pretty expensive for a 3rd Level Assassin Rogue, depending on the Campaign.
For only a single dose?
Echamil wrote:
Echamil wrote:
Echamil wrote:
My biggest issue is that crafting takes forever, even if you use Jeremy Crawford's houserule. A single 200gp vial of poison takes 40 full days to make, or 20 days with this houserule. Those are days you can't go adventuring or do anything else.
This is incompatible with most campaigns, leaving the player to purchase (overpriced) or harvest (rare, stupid-high DC) their poisons.
Clutchbone wrote:
I don't understand the 'you can't go adventure or do anything else' - it seems to be stated as a problem - but what's the problem?
Does the GM make you sit for, say, thirty minutes doing nothing for every day that passes crafting? Or does he just say 'Okay, you craft for five days' and that's as long as it takes? Ie, it costs you nothing?
You know, I'm a bit surprised to see no suggestions of using class abilities for better (and cheap, if even cheesy) access to poisons.
For instance, you can extract poisons from pets, like a Chainlock's fiend familiar, a hunter ranger's beast companion, or a Druid's animal summons. You could also try allies transformed into poisonous creatures, like from the Polymorph spell or Wildshape. And since they're willing subjects, you might be liable to have advantage on the harvesting check.
There's Conjuration Wizards. Once they've seen a bottle of a specific potion, there wouldn't be as great a need to craft/harvest that type again.
I don't have the DMG in front of me....is there a weapon poison that applies the "Poisoned" condition, rather than just doing instant damage? I'd find that a lot more interesting, personally.
I think the DC and damage is fine as is, I would not want to play in a campagin where poison is a major influence. It offsets the DPR quite a bit if it is too easy.
I would consider allowing faster crafting, the base assumption now is you add 2,5 gp value per day, I'd be willing to add another gp to that for every point of proficiency bonus over +2.
I think I'd also allow to gain double proficiency with a craft, once for background and once as assassin so it would allow faster creation.
Harvesting raw components might be considered as well (poisonous creatures or scavenging for herbs or minerals).
a 5th lvl assassin with double proficiency with an intelligence of 14 would add 8,5 gp value per day allowing for poison creation more than three times as fast then.
To be quite honest, I keep reading the Poison condition, but it doesn't make much sense to me.
Echamil wrote:
Noon wrote:
EzechielDantan wrote:
Clutchbone wrote:
A big question for poison is:
1) Should it be a combat upgrade?
or
2) Should it be a useful way of subtly killing someone without obvious violence.
I think the rules as they stand tend towards the later.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I think many of the poisons fit well with price and DC, especially since ingested and vapor poisons would rarely be used against monsters. They are the "kill the noble at the dinner party" poisons. As for time and dosage, I think it works fairly well. This isn't a world where chemistry is in hyper-drive, think of making poison like making good alcohol, it takes time and it is hard to make vast quantities of it.
I have an assassin who loves concocting poisons, and one thing I tried to do to help him was to break the crafting into X hours instead of days. Meaning if he can put in two hours of work while on the road then he gets a little closer. They wanted to buy a wagon for a while, so he could simply ride while they traveled and work on his poisons. This is great for the crafting rules, because travel time is fairly empty space to begin with, especially when traveling secure roads like my group has been.
Clutchbone wrote:
I'd either have you make poison at 25 gp per day, but you spend 25 gp per day crafting it like magical items.
OR
You craft it per craft rules at 5 gp per day using 2.5 gp in raw materials.
OR
You can mix the two up,
I'd not make poison cheap though. the DC and damage effects are fine to me, if it is a combat buff it should be treated like expendable magic.
I think if you were going to modify the rules on it for the clutchbone, you'd want to make it he can craft some poison during each long rest - so as to fit it into adventures.