| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1SnigTheWorgSep 06, 2015 6:47:34 | Hey everyone, i'm creating a new character, and I really wanted to try a pure paladin build, but i'm having a hard time resisting the urge to multiclass.
I want to play a heavily armored front line fighter wielding a longsword and keeping an empty hand to grapple and shut down dangerous foes. Kind of a grab and stab idea. I will keep a shield handy for when I need the extra AC. I don't want to put all my focus into grappling, but i'd like to be better then average at it, and one or two levels into rogue are just so tempting.
I was thinking i'd take Taveren Brawler at level 1, along with Sentinal and Resilience (Constitution), putting the rest into ASI, also taking the Dueling Fighting Style. At level 20, along with those feats my stats will be...
STR 20 DEX 8 (really didn't want to take a negative here) CON 16 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA 18
Variant human with a +1 to STR and +1 CHA.
Some other considerations were Heavy Armor Mastery and Mage Slayer.
What do you guys think? I'm sure I can improve on my stat arrangement, ASI's and Feats? Should I give up on my lvl 20 Capstone (Vengence Paladin or Devotion) for Expertise in Athletics and Cunning Action? |
| #2shintashiSep 06, 2015 7:55:22 | well in ancient times, during the war of bell bottoms and when Star Wars was a big deal... Paladins had at least 10 intelligence and 13 Wisdom. So, I decided to show you my first impressions of your build. I'll let you decide if it's what you have in mind for a Paladin.
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| #3bidSep 06, 2015 10:11:00 | You realize losing 1 feat would put your dex at 12, no?
And there no way you can get cunning action without dex 13. |
| #4melloredSep 06, 2015 11:23:34 | also consider bards. insperation dice are rather paladiny, and more slots for smitel. |
| (Reply to #4)SnigTheWorg |
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| #6melloredSep 06, 2015 12:10:48 | 5 levels of bard, maybe. Short rest insperation dice is very good, and you get your ASI/expertise. |
| #7Tempest_StormwindSep 06, 2015 13:27:30 | The other thing to note is that paladins usually "require" three ability scores: Strength or Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma. Having that many makes each and every lost ASI hurt, so I rarely see paladins with more than one feat (even variant humans), with a possible exception for Resilient: Con. So if you're going for a variant human and really want feats, Resilient (Con) and Tavern Brawler are where I'd stop.
Incidentally, I don't think you even truly need Tavern Brawler. I've long been a proponent of the "free hand = lots of options" argument, notably because it makes manipulating objects or grabbing ahold of things if you're pushed so much more believable. Tavern Brawler does open up a grab-and-stab approach that extends that to combat, but consider the action requirements and the limits on the grab before you see if it's useful enough to take for you. (It may very well be! But it's not required to make the one-free-hand style useful.) |
| #8SnigTheWorgSep 06, 2015 13:33:04 |
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| #9TheDraconicSpellcrafterSep 06, 2015 15:16:15 | A grappler paladin? That's a cool idea. But you'll have to work at it.
First things first, you can't multiclass rogue with those stats. To make a paladin/rogue, you'd need to have a minimum of 13 in both DEX, STR and CHA. And maybe you'd also want to trade your longsword for a rapier, to benefit from Sneak Attack.
Even if you don't multiclass rogue, I really don't reccomend dumping DEX. As a grappler, you need to go first in combat to shut down your enemy as fast as possible. Leave it at 10, at least.
And speaking about that, having the Tavern Brawler feat and a good understanding of the grapple and shove rules already makes you better than average at grappling. If you want to be little better than that, there's a couple of other feats you could pick up. For example, you could take Alert, to improve your initiative, Lucky, to increase the chances of your grapple check being a sucess, or Warcaster, so you can cast spells with somatic components without dropping your weapon (tip: use a necklace as your holy symbol). By the way, good luck improvising a longsword, because I really don't know how you're going to do that.
If you really want to multiclass, there's a good ammount of options that can improve your grappling skills. You could dip three levels of lore bard to get Expertise and Cutting Words (and Jack of All Trades to raise your initiative), two or three levels of fighter to get Action Surge and maybe some Battlemaster maneuvers (you could even start as a fighter to get proficiency at CON saves!), or if you're not feeling very ambitious, a single level of fiend warlock, to get some temp HPs and Hex. Those are also great multiclass options for a paladin in general.
I'd also like to talk briefly about your ASIs. Look, if you really want to have three feats in your character, you'll have to make some sacrifices. Either you raise your CON to 16, or you raise your CHA to 18. You can't afford to have both.
Now to conclude, one last piece of advice: DON'T take Oath of Devotion. Take either Oath of Vengeance or Oath of The Ancients. They're much better for a grappler.
I hope this advice was useful. Good game! |
| #10SnigTheWorgSep 06, 2015 16:39:38 |
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| #11pdegan2814Sep 06, 2015 19:24:26 |
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| #12ElfcrusherSep 07, 2015 6:42:11 | If you're keen on the Grappling/Brawling thing then go for it, but personally I'd Sword & Board it and take Shield Master. |
| #13SnigTheWorgSep 07, 2015 6:42:57 | Human (Variant / +1 Str, +1 Con) 16 Strength --> 20 10 Dexterity
Saving Throw Proficiency: Wisdom, Charisma, Constitution
ASI / Feats
Human - Level 1 - Tavern Brawler (+1 Str) Level 4 - Heavy Armor Master (+1 Str) Level 8 - Resilient (+1 Con) Level 12 - ASI (+2 Cha) Level 16 - ASI (+2 Str) Level 20 - ASI (+2 Cha)
So there it is. My main concern it having only 14 Charisma until lvl 12. Is this a bad idea? Would you guys switch anything around? |
| #14Granville7482Sep 07, 2015 7:06:03 | It's a solid class from levels 1-20. One of the few.
Tavern Brawler is a really niche feat, you won't miss it when you are smiting the crap out of things.
Heavy Armor Master is actually pretty good if you go Human and take it at first level. With Resilience Con You have 2 +1's; One to Strength and one to Con.
Great Weapon Master is so nuts on a 1-20 Paladin it's pretty hard to say no! Also an amazing feat at level 1, because you will auto-kill pleanty in your level range, though Out of the Abyss has a thing for starting you off against things far over your level range you are supposed to outsmart ;)
Inspiring Leader may not seem that great at first, but is actually pretty darn kick ass. More so in Out of the Abyss where nasty stuff above your level range can kill your friends, and this feat will keep them on thier feet.
Oath of Vengence may be the best for Out of the Abyss, because demons. But I dont think it will matter much if you take the other oaths.
I'll try and keep this as spoiler free as I can but try and read into what I am saying here: ---Sword--- and Shield in Out of the Abyss can be OP and more OP than Great Weapons, as soon as level 2 or as late as levels 4-5, provided on where you end up in the underdark. ;)
Good Luck! The first 3 level of Out of the Abyss are not very Paladin friendly. The initial encouter you can not combat your way out of, and requires more....seedy behaviour and a seperate skillset than the Paladin will usually have to be successfull. Then while traveling around in the underdark, there are pleanty of instances where your party is punished for brandishing light, in the forms of extra combats with no real reward for fighting them, except exp. |