Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 NirvanS Dec 04, 2014 20:24:52	I actually don't see it as a MUST have. You are allowed only 1 bonus action.   So if you are concentrating on a spell, you continue concentrating and can cast another spell ie fireball or use a wand.   If you plan on casting an instantaneous spell with a cantrip regularly, then I see it as a waste of sorcery points. Rather twinned Haste or disintegrate   Please enlighten me on quickened
#2 bonethug0108 Dec 04, 2014 20:38:36	I agree that it seems like one of the weaker options, along with Extended Spell(in battle; most fights are over in 10 rounds or less).   Your cantrips do scale though, so you cast a spell and can still do "normal" attack damage in the same turn with a cantrip so it isn't completely useless. Also useful if you need to use your action for something else.
#3 WizardV Dec 04, 2014 21:50:36	The basic wisdom of burst damage is that you can reduce a difficult fight to an easy fight using burst resources and then finish it using at will abilities. Also, everyone likes to have occasional times where they feel like a badass. For some easy headmath, say you start a fight with 5 monsters and your group damage on at will-abilities is enough to drop 1 monster a round. For the sake of easy math let's just say using burst resources you can drop 2 monsters that round. Since it takes 5 rounds for the encounter without burst, they get 5+4+3+2+1 (15) monster turns. With burst they get 5+3+2+1 (11) monster turns, a significant reduction in potential monster damage. The logic for being a controller is along similar lines.   The most common burst resources are your highest level spells, quicken, and action surge. This is partially why you see so many people favor Eldritch Blast + Sorc. It disproportionately benefits the burst damage of the player.   By contrast, if you use haste, you may very well get more damage out of your sorcery points. For the record, I am a strong proponent of haste. However, that damage comes later, and the monsters are going in the meantime. During the turn you cast haste, you did not attack, let's say the monster does not die as a result of the missing damage, but because of haste you now kill 2 monsters a round without burst resources. So you have 5,5,3,1 (14) monster rounds. Did haste do more damage? Certainly, it lead to 2 dead monsters instead of 1. However, the delayed effect of it made the party suffer more in the interim.   I'm definitely oversimplifying things a bit here but I'm just trying to make you see the potential merits and why calculating the damage/sorc point is not the whole picture.
#4 bonethug0108 Dec 04, 2014 22:12:55	Seems to all make sense. That was also my point of being able to still do cantrip damage. Big spell, then finish with the cantrip. 1 less enemy to hurt you. Still seems a weaker Metamagic option, but it is far from useless.
(Reply to #3) grendel111111	WizardV wrote:
#6 bonethug0108 Dec 04, 2014 23:49:48	The best strategy is always to take out foes as quickly as possibly(if actually wanting to fight them). It lessens their action economy, and lack of action economy is a big reason why solo(not 4e solos) monsters suck.   Given equal damage output, it's always better to do it in one round vs. five(given no wasted damage to hp).   Not that it's wrong to dish it out slowly. This isn't a comment on playstyle, just effectiveness.
#7 Raegoul Dec 05, 2014 0:31:02	bonethug0108 wrote:
#8 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 05, 2014 3:44:22	NirvanS wrote:
(Reply to #8) NirvanS	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#10 Sorxores Dec 05, 2014 5:53:48	Quicken:   Concentration do NOT require bonus action or any kind of action to maintain so irrelevant   Quicken cost 2SP, Twinned haste cost 3SP, Twinned Disintegrate cost 6SP   If you cast spell like Telekenesis, flaming sphere, witch bolt etc.... (require an action to deal damage, but are not consider as casting the spell) then you could use your action with telekenesis to RESTRAIN a creature and bring it near an other creaeture, then cast a quicken fireball targeting more target, and making sure that your telekenisis target take full damage   Or you know you cast disintegrate lvl 9 on the BBEG, then your DM tell you: "His still alive, but you see him woble and you think a single hit wil be enought to kill him" you also know the BBEG will attack nest turn and if he attack he will probably kill the cleric, then a quicken firebolt and boom he's dead saving the cleric life.   Remember your cantrip increase at lvl 5/11/17 making them do damage slightly under a regular fighter attack (3 attack doing 1d10+5 compare to a firebolt dealing 4d10+5)   Then if you dip 2 level warlock you also gain Eldritch blast with agonizing blast dealing 4 time (1d10+5) at level 17th)   even at low level, at level 3  we are facing a bug bear and some little goblin. the fighter go in first, miss teh bug bear, the bug bear laught at him and see my squshy sorcerer and move toward me (take a AoO from the fighter dealing 6 damage) and attack my sorcerer bringing me down to 2 HP the cleric drag me 10ft back (he was out of healing spell). I was able to cast a twin firebolt (killing a goblin and doing 9 damage on the Bug Bear) then quicken magic missile for an other 15 on the bug bear killing him in a single round of combat then then for some reason the goblin still alive sstarted to whorship me and call me master lol so I sent them and told them to mimic farmer and start being farmer themself and do trade with the neiborhood towns. not sure what happen with them.   This is the power of Quicken finishing wounded target, doing combo with other spell, you can use your action to stabilise an ally who already have 2 death save (medicine check) to disengage and move away then cast a range attack spell without disavantage and without AoO) then still quicken a spell (yes at higher level casting misty step would be better, but at low level your level 2 spells are important, If you want to be a gish you can use your action to attack then quicken a fireball etc....   Quicken is not one of the weakest, it's one of the strong metamagic available at the moment.
#11 NirvanS Dec 05, 2014 20:10:41	You can only cast a cantrip once you quicken a spell. So you can cast telekinesis, but can't followup with fireball. It must be a cantrip
#12 NirvanS Dec 05, 2014 20:10:42	You can only cast a cantrip once you quicken a spell. So you can cast telekinesis, but can't followup with fireball. It must be a cantrip
#13 WizardV Dec 06, 2014 0:16:05	I believe he is referring to the action provided by telekinesis, not the actual casting of it. So, while maintaining concentration, use the action provided by the spell to group monsters and the fireball with increased efficiency.
#14 Ashrym Dec 06, 2014 12:30:54	Quicken is a strong choice because it frees up a action while still being able to cast a spell. It also works well with cantrips for increased damage and works with spells that cannot be twinned. It's cheap and I consider both twin and quicken as top priorities for the combat benefits. Especially if I am splashing warlock for eldritch blast. It seems silly not to take quicken to DOUBLE the eldritch blast damage output for the consistent damage.