Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mad_Jack Aug 16, 2015 18:30:07	I'm debating whether or not to bring back an old-school character of mine as my 1st 5E character. Since I haven't played yet and probably won't in the near future I haven't bothered investing  the time to develop any sort of real system mastery, so I'm looking for advice on when to take which levels for a multi-class character in order not to gimp myself too badly on ability score increases and class features. Or if it's even possible to make the character without becoming largely ineffective.   Originally the character was a half-elf Ranger/Illusionist, who focused about 65% on the ranger side and 35% on the magic. Most of her spells were illusions meant for non-combat misdirection and stealth or pre-combat ambushes. Looking at the ranger spell list, it seems most of their spells are very much either combat or nature-themed, so I'd like to eventually pick up enough levels in wizards to get some decent illusions... I think I may like to eventually end up Ranger 15/Illusionist 5 for the 3rd level wizards spells and 15th level hunter ability (though I doubt I'll ever play the character long enough to get that high), although I may also go Ranger 13/Illusionist 7 to get 4th levl spells (hallucinatory terrain) and the 6th level illusionist ability.      I'll be using the standard stat array and probably going high elf instead of half elf this time, which gives me a 17 Dex and a 15 Int to start, as well as one cantrip. And I'll need to put the 13 in Wis to multiclass. (Although I'm also debating on going variant human to pick up Magic Initiate to have some starting spells (see below), which would knock my Dex down to 16 but not affect my Int.)   One of the issues is that I kind of want to do some wizard spellcasting right out of the gate (or at least very early on), but if I go high elf for the ability scores aside fron the one cantrip (which I plan to use for minor illusion) I won't have any wizard spells until my first level of wizard (and no spells at all until my 2nd ranger level). I'm almost certainly going to be starting with two levels of ranger for the archery style, which would also give me some mostly combat-related spells (kind of annoying that rangers don't get any cantrips), but then after that I'm pretty much uncertain. I want to grab a wizard level for the extra cantrips/spells as soon as possible, and fit in at least two levels of wizard fairly early on to get the school benefits.    Anyway, any thoughts on race (high elf or variant human) and where to go after Ranger 2?
#2 Yunru Aug 16, 2015 18:32:41	Ugh, no. Wizard stretches you between three different stats and adds nothing beyond spell alots and spells. Playing/Multiclassing an Arcane Trickster would fit the fluff better, and work better mechanically.
#3 bid Aug 16, 2015 19:02:43	Yeah, to extent on Yunru: start Dex/Int 16/16 and go EK fighter or AT rogue. Use a bow and call yourself a ranger. You can wait until level 5 to MC wizard.   Sorcerer has most of the illusion spells and archfey warlock could also fit with the right invocations. Then you could dump Int and use those slot for shield and other self-buff.
#4 Mad_Jack Aug 16, 2015 19:37:57	Hrm. The issues I'm seeing with starting as an arcane trickster are that I'll still be making Dex and Int my primary and secondary scores and putting my 13 into either Wis or Con anyway (so nothing really changes there) and I won't have any wizard spells until 3rd level (unless I went variant human for Magic Initiate, which would mean less Dex and  losing darkvision and free perception prof.). Although I'd have sneak attack pumping my damage, I wouldn't be getting the ranger's +2 for archery style until a later level. Plus, if I multiclass ranger/arcane trickster, although it'll definitely pump up my to-hit and damage, having neither class be a full caster will totally kill my available spell slots.   I could go one level of fighter for the archery style (picking up stealth through a background) and then multiclass wizard later on for more spells, but that still means I'm basically spell-less until 3rd level...   I think going fighter/wizard might just be my best bet, though...
#5 Yunru Aug 16, 2015 19:31:52	Cantrips, such as minor illusion, hwlps there. Plus didn't you say you were looking for 65% stabby shooty? Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are literal 1/3 casters :P
#6 Mad_Jack Aug 16, 2015 19:53:38	I think I'll just have to go with high elf EK/wizard, pick up stealth through a background and be satisfied with having a single cantrip until level three... Which brings up the question - after starting as a fighter, do I want to go one level of wizard at second level to get spells quicker and use the Ek to increase that later, or do I want to go three levels straight to Ek and then start wizard later?
#7 bid Aug 16, 2015 20:03:37	Ranger is 1/2 a caster. If you did 1 Wizard, 3 Rogue, 1 Wizard, 3 Rogue, etc. you'd progress about as fast as ranger..   I still suggest you look at misty visions and mask of many faces in Warlock invocations. That's 2 level-1 illusion spells at will.   Or starting as Sorcerer will offers you Con proficiency. You only lose illusory script, magic mouth, nystul’s magic aura, phantom steed from Wizard.   The only real gain of Ranger is that you gain archery style and spells at level 2. EK fighter still gains archery style at level 2 but delays spells to the next level.
(Reply to #6) bid	Mad_Jack wrote:
#9 rgoodbb Aug 17, 2015 0:48:36	Half-Elf Valour Bard/Ranger? Still MAD but,   Good Illusion spell list from level 1 and a shortbow/crossbow and high charisma for pulling off similar deceptions.   Maybe your DM will allow you to forgo your Wis,   Or homebrew that your ranger spell list is more like an illusion school. Doesn't seem game-breaking   Otherwise make your Ranger/Illusionist and accept that your stats might not be the greatest but that you are playing the PC you want.
#10 RCNovak Aug 17, 2015 12:17:01	Why not Multiclass Wizard with the Spell-Less Ranger variant from the Modifying Classes article? https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes Sure, you lose out on Hunter's Mark and more of the "Nature-esque" Spells... but the only tie that Spell-Less Ranger has to Wisdom is the ability to make Healing Poultices, which is a need that can be filled by another class. You still get your fighting style, all of the tracking powers, and the Beastmaster or Hunter features from the Archetype; plus some Battle Manuevers ripped from Battlemaster Fighter.
#11 pudd Aug 17, 2015 18:27:10	You could try 1 level in fighter for the weapons, armour, con saves, second wind, and fighting style. After that you could go the rest into warlock. For patron I'd pick either Archfey (they're all about trickery and stuff) or Great Old One (telepathy is handy for sneaky communication). Pact would be either Tome (for the extra spells) or Chain (familiar isn't quite the same as pet but its close). Sadly Blade pact is melee weapon only. Eldritch invocation suggestions: Beast Speech if you want to talk to the animals like a ranger. Devil's Sight if you don't have some kind of darkvision or you just want to do the Darkness / Devil's Sight combo. Mask of Many Faces gives you an illusion spell at-will but in my opinion it isn't too useful. Misty Visions is ridiculously handy if you want illusions. An at-will illusion that can cover a 15 foot square. Voice of the Chain Master is handy for scouting and communication. Spells: Hex is pretty close to Hunter's Mark. Invisibility, Darkness, Mirror Image, Misty Step are all suitably tricksy spells. The only stats you need are charisma and dex so Half-Elf still works, you can use their Skill Versatility feature to pick up stealth and perception if you didn't get them from a background. But if you wanted to pick classes that are still ranger and wizard then it's still possible, run as either a high elf or wood elf (basic elf gives dex, high gives int, wood gives wis). 2 levels in ranger for spells and fighting style, atleast 2 levels into wizard for illusionist sub-class, the rest of the levels where ever you want.
#12 Catodon Aug 18, 2015 22:00:11	Forget system mastery, it's for snobs. Imagine your character consider her experiences during adventures, then make choices to reflect all this and forget about min maxing.
#13 Mad_Jack Aug 18, 2015 23:37:54	Catodon wrote:
#14 spanglemaker Aug 19, 2015 8:06:33	Mad_Jack, I quite like your Jack Daw concept. Off topic- Once you get familiar with 5th Edition, it would be great to see him converted.   May I make a suggestion, that you check out the Adventurers League rules.  The reason I make the suggestion is that it gives you great flexibility in how you design or play a character, until it becomes fixed at 5th Level. As long as you keep your name and equipment, you can change anything at each level up to and including 4th. So possibly 1st level Human Fighter (Archery), 2nd level Half Elf Fighter and Warlock 3rd Level High Elf Ranger 2 and Warlock, 4th Level Human Fighter 2 Wizard 2.   I created my 'librarian character Erizel that way', level 1- Standard Array, Variant Human ( Magic Initiate- Bard), Warlock Archfey Tome Pact. Level 2 Warlock- Devils Sight, Agonising Blast. Level 3 I swapped out Magic Initiate for Dungeon Delver, kept Devils Sight and swapped out Agonising Blast for Book of Ancient Secrets (Find Familiar and Speak with Animals). Level 4 she became Bard 1/ Warlock 3, replaced Dungeon Delver with Spell Sniper. Level 5 - Bard 1/ Warlock 4, gets rid of Devils Sight for Misty Visions( she uses her familiars senses when it's an Owl).   If I was working with your Ranger Illusonist concept, I would probably do this.   Level 1 Fighter (Archery), Human Magic Initiate (Warlock Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion and Hex or Armor of Agathys) at 1st level you could nearly have Hunters Mark via Hex. Either use a background or custom build it so that you have the skills you seek. Possibly Perception, Acrobatics (Fighter), Stealth and Deception (Criminal Background but with Rustic Hospitality instead of Criminal Contacts), Animal Handling maybe from Variant Human.   Level 2 either Fighter 2 for Action Surge (very nice) keeping Magic Initiate or taking a level as Warlock or Wizard or swapping out and taking Ranger 2 (which for me personally isn't so great).   Level 3- Fighter 3 (Eldritch Knight) or Battle Master or Champion. Options if you went Eldritch Knight, you could swap Magic Initiate for another feat of your choice. Fighter Archetypes are pretty cool and you can still claim to be a Ranger. Maybe swap out a skill for Nature.  Alternately you could go Fighter 2 and Wizard or Warlock 1.   Level 4 Do you want an Ability Score Improvement or a Feat, then go Fighter 4 or do you want utility? Fighter 2/3 Warlock 2/1. I personally would go Fighter 2 Warlock 2 Misty Visions, and Devils Sight. Then focus on Fighter levels. One thing I would suggest maybe speak with your DM about allowing a slight modification to Eldritch Knight. Swapping out Evocation spells for Illusions. The hypothetical Tradition of Lerenye'Natal (Earth Guardian) is Eldritch Knight but primarily teaches Illusion and Abjuration spells. NB this doesn't affect Cantrips, I've seen Arcane Tricksters thinking that they could not have evocation cantrips which is incorrect. This suggestion makes the home game more unique and won't step on an Arcane Tricksters toes. It also fits more with your concept of Ranger Illusonist. On another matter I know that Warlock doesn't mesh as well as Wizard whose primary stat of Intelligence matches the Eldritch Knight. It would not be too broken to take 2 levels in Warlock, 3 levels in Wizard and 15 in Fighter.  Fighter 15 Eldritch Knight grants 10 spells known (levels 1-3), 3 Cantrips, Weapon Bond, War Magic, Eldritch Strike and Arcane Charge Wizard 2 grants an Arcane Tradition, adds 2 full Spellcasting levels to the Eldritch Knight, plus 8 spells into the Spellbook Warlock 2 nets you 2 Pact Slots (1st Level), 2 Invocations, 2 Cantrips and 3 spells So my version would know 13 spells (Eldritch Knight and Warlock), have a Spellbook containing 8 Wizard spells. So would have access to 21 spells, 2 Invocations. Spell slots would be 2 Pact Slots (1st Level) plus 4/3/3/1 Wizard Slots. You would have a 4th level slot but not know any 4th level spells. That's just an option, I am sure there are countless ways of building your concept.
#15 Bera Aug 23, 2015 23:56:27	Honestly, doing the character as a Ranger/Wizard(Illusionist) is probably quite viable if you keep the limitations in mind. Because you'd otherwise need multiple stats and its hard to have more than 2 good ones, focus on Dex and Int as you were planning. Then simply avoid taking too many spells that would require attack rolls or saving throws. The wizard levels will give you more spells than a traditional ranger would get, and there are a lot of reasonable buffing and utility spells that don't rely too much on your spellcasting stat from both ranger and wizard lists.
#16 Kron-Karn Aug 24, 2015 14:56:31	I think you've got a tough choice here. I agree with most posts in that some combination of Fighter, illutionest wizard and rogue is the way to go. It is easy enough to flaver her nature wise and ranger doesn't offer you a whole lot that a wizard/fighter can't.   So you could go F1/Wz5/F5/Wz9 This option gives you lv 3 spells as soon as possible. You don't get a second Att untill lv 10 which hurts but lets say if you go human and take Martial Adept at lv 1 you would have a few superiority die to play around with and help you boost your Att power. Then at 8th lv when you get to pick your martial archetype I'd probably go battle Master to boost your d6s to d8s. By not going ek your only loosing one 8th lv slot of which you can't cast an 8thlv Spell with any how. And finally this builds capstone ability is illusionary reality which untill I listen to the orc labs interview with treentmonk had totally glossed over. Essentially it lets you turn a 1st lv Spell like silent image into a 5th lv Spell slot like wall of stone. You could play around with the build and make it front Heavy with martial puntch. Maybe F5 or 6/Wz 14 or 15 and take Magic initiate at lv 1 as suggested but I would pick from the wizard list to refrain from becoming to MAD.   The second build I had in mind is a touch more true to the 65% ranger you first mentioned. F2/Wz3/F4/Wz3/Ro3/F5. Once again I would go martial Adept at lv 1 because your second Att is delayed. Either Go battle Master at lv 6 to get more superiority die and at lv 19 your d8s will turn to d10s or you could go Ek if you wanted more spell power. Go arcane trickster at lv 15 for Mage Hand legerdemain. This build gives you a third Att as its capstone ability and in general is more martial Heavy than the first build. Once again you could shuffle things around to get various abilities faster, like cunning action and experience from the rogue, but any way you cut it itll slow your progression to either the second Att or to third lv spells of which both are important mile markers.   As a touched on above I would stay away from anything that will take your focus away from Dex and Int. I have a Abjurer/Warlock build which focuses on dex and int as well and only uses his Warlock abilities as utility. That is to say I shy away from using any Cha either in Att or saves but i still needed to meet the prerequisits to multi class so the cost was my con being 12. His main utility being a caster I am planning to keep him directly out of harms way as much as possible but If I find even then he is taking to much of a beating I plan to take the touness feat to beef him up. I see this ranger illutionest being a "mid feild" battler. Probably skulking in the shadows most of the time but if he does find himself in the fray being able to hold his ground or retreat before he takes to much damage (combo of sheild Spell and cunning action) so its kinda a toss up as to weather that low con would make you a liability.
#17 RCNovak Aug 26, 2015 8:26:33	RCNovak wrote:
#18 UngeheuerLich Aug 26, 2015 16:40:42	I like the arcane trickster idea.   Just going outlander + rogue -> arcane trickster seems like a good idea.   Also as half elf, bard + ranger can´t be wrong since you get the +2 charisma for free. Spell less ranger does not seem like a very good idea, because you lose spell levels.   Remember that you so not need too much wisdom or int or charisma if you use spells for utility buffs mainly. No save DC no attack roll... no problem. As spontaneous caster it isn´t even factored into spells prepared.   So with default array, as a half elf you can get:   16 dex, 14 con, 14 wis, 14 Cha, 10 Str, 8 int for example. You can be ranger/bard multiclass with impressive stats and skills. As a lore bard (valour is not needed for multiclass ranger) you have an impressive amount of skills and good helpful illusion spells. When to multiclass? Don´t know. 3rd level maybe. With multiclass ranger and hunter you should be able to hold your own, even when other people already have 2 attacks.   If you decide to be an arcane trickster, ranger multiclass, 2 levels ranger, rest arcane trickster will give you enough at level 5. Int 12 is enough with a careful selection of spells.
#19 Saeviomagy Aug 26, 2015 18:19:54	As long as you don't choose direct damage ranger spells, then you aren't bound to wisdom even if you go straight ranger.
#20 Kron-Karn Aug 26, 2015 19:36:03	with the standard array of scorse if you focus on int and dex, which seems to be the general concensus on the thred, you still need the min of 13 wis so your con will be 12 before racial modifiers. If you multiclass 3 ways you need at least 2 of the prerequisites to over lap. In this case it needs to be dex there for if you want three classes for this build it needs to be fighter, rogue and a spell casting class of your choice.