Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jaappleton Sep 15, 2015 10:10:28	I've been tinkering around with somehow building Richter Belmont. Obviously, the whip is crucial. I play in a home game, I may be able to pay for a chain whip and up its damage. That aside, what are we talking about for class and progression? He was quite dexterous, able to flip around a lot. So I'm contemplating Rogue levels for Expertise there, plus Cunning Action. But the only way I can see to make him Divine oriented to do bonus damage against Undead is Paladin. So how should this progression work? Assume starting at lv6.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Sep 15, 2015 10:47:08	I'd been tinkering around with a different experiment and hit on the perfect solution. My challenge to myself was to take various classes/subclasses and see what alternate flavors fit them. (For example, Great Old One warlock fits quite nicely as a 'psion'.) When I hit on the Oath of Vengeance paladin, the natural answer was "Belmont".   Look at the Oath of Vengeance. It's not just blindly killing stuff - it's rising up against a great evil, regardless of the risks to yourself, and defending those ruined by it (the restitution point). The Belmont quest against Dracula perfectly fits this - it's just that the traditional Belmonts fight in clothing that is most decidedly not heavy armor and don't generally use swords, so the image of a paladin doesn't really scream it at first. But it is a spectacular fit.   My first take on it actually used a whip as the main weapon with the Dueling style, allowing a free hand to switch between the various "sub-weapons" (like holy water flasks or handaxes). However, I noticed that the whip is not a "light" weapon, which makes it difficult to use in those circumstances. (It really should be, given how the usual whip influences on adventurers always used it in tandem with another weapon - Indiana Jones and his gun, Zorro and his rapier, etc. I recognize it's a clumsy weapon, not meant to be wielded in pairs, but the lack of a Light designation prevents it from being used with any other weapon.) There's another snag, too - the sub-weapons usually employ ranged attacks, which can't be used with Smite. These are definite snags.   If you're interested despite these snags, here's a mockup at level 6. I used Athletics rather than Acrobatics to capture the mobility stuff because it was easier to get, but it's doable without it and there's some flex in what your skills are if you really want it. (Note that in classicvanias, the Belmonts were plenty strong but not terribly agile, partly due to console limitations. It wasn't until they added advanced moves to Richter that they really started to act like serious acrobats, and even then it doesn't really last - Julius, arguably the most badass Belmont of them all, is not generally used in Dawn of Sorrow for his mobility.) I altered starting package equipment to better fit a generic Belmont style, and while it doesn't use magic items, it does include a potential homebrew version of the Vampire Killer. (My original thought on this was simply bolting Holy Avenger onto a whip, but that makes the Vampire Killer ludicrously strong if it's used from a low level. So, instead, I opted for a staged progression and a potential drawback, inspired by Bloodlines (its big drawback for John Morris) and Portrait of Ruin (Jonathan uses it without attunement, unless you finish a late-game optional quest).) It's slightly better against undead in exchange for being overall worse than a Holy Avenger, but its general awesomeness is still there, especially if you interpret most of the Castlevania foes as being fiends or undead.)
#3 Setzer_G Sep 15, 2015 12:04:28	I was thinking on this some myself. The build you have is likely the path I would go, though I thought of a couple things that make him mechanically better, while still keeping the flavor of what you were looking for. Paladin (Vengeance)/Sorcerer (Favored Soul) fits thematically, and allows for all the crazy stuff the subweapons can do Paladin (Vengeance)/Alternate Ranger (Hunter, with Superiority Dice instead of spell slots) allows for neat whip tricks and utility in combat with a party. Since the whip (in some of the games, at least) can be wielded to block incoming attacks, I might still have a "shield" on him, but flavor is as a plate sleeve with the whip blocking the attacks.
#4 jaappleton Sep 15, 2015 12:37:31	Interesting thought on the Hunter/Ranger part, Setzer_G. I hadn't thought of the Variant Ranger, but the ability to use the whip for awesome tricks.   However, my DM is a bit favorable. I can describe what I'm trying to do, and he'll often let me try it. So at lv5, I can do one attack and one attempt to trip, for example.    What feats should I aim for with this?
#5 jaappleton Sep 15, 2015 12:41:59	Fighter 3 for Champion is really tempting. Also, Critting with a Smite doubles the Smite damage dice, right? Similar to how you double all Sneak Attack dice for a Rogue?
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Sep 15, 2015 13:13:21	jaappleton wrote:
#7 jaappleton Sep 15, 2015 13:19:02	Just to get the flavor right, I think Paladin is absolutely the way to go here. Champion is really tempting to splash at some point, but when? Paladins are pretty front loaded.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Sep 15, 2015 13:36:12	jaappleton wrote:
#9 jaappleton Sep 15, 2015 13:44:49	Tempest, have I ever told you the insanely high amount of respect I have for you? I've lurked on the forum since 4E, you're incredibly insightful into the game and helpful. Thank you for being you.       If I did dip Fighter 2 or 3, either jumping out at Action Surge or Champion, what's the rule on fighting styles? Would they stack, Dueling and Defense?
#10 jaappleton Sep 15, 2015 13:52:49	Wait, hold on a second. Just tossing this out there.       How does Ranger fit?   Hail of Thorns sounds like throwing dozens of daggers at once to me, replicating that ability.    Also, how does Valor Bard 6 / Paladin sound? I could Smite using the Bard slots, right? What is gained and lost by doing this route?
#11 Tempest_Stormwind Sep 15, 2015 14:13:15	jaappleton wrote:
#12 Macv12 Sep 15, 2015 18:47:23	Just throwing this out there: monk is not a terrible idea. By level three you can intercept projectiles with your whip, do some amazing long and high jumps, and coat your whip (mechanically your fist) in fire temporarily. The stat spread is not ideal but the abilities are there. Your DM might be okay with switching all the monk's WIS requirements to CHA; it's not like it's a fundamental design tenet of the game that paladins multiclass poorly with monks but great with sorcerers. Then you could even rock the open-chested shirt or the longcoat and have respectable AC.
#13 jaappleton Sep 15, 2015 19:11:02	Fangs of the Fire Snake absolutely fits the flavor and ability of setting the whip aflame, that's true. Though I don't think the whip itself is on the Monk weapon list.
#14 jaappleton Sep 15, 2015 19:18:54	Alright. Here's what I think makes a Belmont. I don't think any class combination can nail down every ability that the Belmont Clan has, not at level six. So, let's try to nail down something that's close by level ten. Ranger 5, Cleric 5? I lose Smites, but gain a lot of AoE. Including Spirit Guardians to simulate Grand Cross or Hydro Storm. Does that work?
#15 CrazyMcNinja Sep 15, 2015 20:04:53	jaappleton wrote:
#16 jaappleton Sep 17, 2015 11:16:11	I keep leaning away from Paladin. I'm thinking either Spell-less Ranger from April's UA, where they get Maneuvers, or Fighter 5, followed by Cleric. Spirit Guardians is perfect for simulating the Holy Cross Item Crash ability.
#17 Danny_Montanny Sep 17, 2015 13:13:05	Not really up on the source material at all, but what about Paladin with Swashbuckler? Whip is finesse so you'll be able Sneak Attack with it. Charisma is important to both classes. Half-Elf would get you pretty good stats along wth all of its other goodies. Maybe 14/16/12/8/10/16 and start Paladin? Starting Rogue would get you one more skill at the cost of 2 hit points and not being proficient with the whip until you pick up Paladin.   Better yet, you want Spirit Guardians and Conjure Barrage, right? No better way to get them both as early as you can than Lore Bard 6. BOOM!
#18 jaappleton Sep 17, 2015 14:18:33	Well Lore Bard doesn't net me two attacks, unfortunately.   Oddly enough, one thing that fits the bill fairly well is, of all things, Favored Soul. Toughness mitigates the d6 hit die, and there's plenty of spells to simulate the Item Crash effects. Using Sorcery Points to replenish Spell Slots is the equivalent to picking up "hearts". War Domain nets me Spirit Guardians. Unfortunately, that doesn't net me Martial Weapons... So no whip. One Fighter level fixes this, however. Or even some Cleric Domains, so I don't slow Spellcasting.   Agunea, his Lightning attack from SOTN, perfectly fits with Lightning Bolt. Holy Cross is represented with Spirit Guardians. Stopwatch is replicated fairly well in both Hold Person and Hypnotic Pattern.      I've accepted the fact that nothing is going to get me ALL the Item Crash abilities. I'm fine with about three, but Spirit Guardians is a must have. It's fairly iconic. Maneuvers from Battle Master / Spell-Less Ranger would be nice to have, as well, but aren't as crucial.        As fitting as Paladin is, there's already a Devotion Pally in the group.
#19 jaappleton Sep 18, 2015 15:20:57	I think I just figured it out. It requires DM approval, which I'm waiting on, but here's what I have. Pretty simple, actually.         Bolt the War Domain Cleric list on to the Paladin of Vengeance.    So the Paladin of Vengeance gets...     3rd - divine favor, shield of faith 5th - magic weapon, spiritual weapon 9th - crusader’s mantle, spirit guardians 13th - freedom of movement, stoneskin 17th - flame strike, hold monster     Spiritual Weapon replicates subweapons. Mainly the Cross. Spiritual Guardians is the Grand Cross Item Crash ability. Hold Monster is Stopwatch, freezing enemies on screen.