Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 FrankJones Aug 21, 2014 20:46:23	I haven't noticed anyone talk about the advantage of rogues taking a single fighter level.    You get:  1. Dex modifier to offhand with two weapon fighter 2. Second wind d10+1 3. Added weapon proficiencies   You don't lose SA dice, since they max out at lvl 19. You do lose turn the tables but I'm unconvinced that it's worth it.    As as far as subclasses go, has anyone discussed the utility of thief versus the extra damage of assassin (and the versatility of AT)?   I am not impressed with the assassin's infiltration and imposter perks. The thief perks are fairly good although I wonder at the numbers for supreme sneak (most will already have expertise in stealth and are about to get reliable talent- how much difference will advantage make?). Use magic device could be incredible or boring depending on consumables out there. Most conversations have been about this perk being useless given the rarity of permanent magic items.    I'd like to hear more.    I'm inclining to an elven assassin, spy background, with a level of fighter. But I miss being able to work some magic.
#2 Sorxores Aug 21, 2014 21:00:39	first of all rogue are a range class now (your SA apply to only 1 attack per turn, so if you can go hide (with your cunnign action) and attack (giving you advantege) you will see that you can do a lot of damage. So fighter would give you an extra+2 on ranged weapon.   Personnaly I love Arcane trickster disavantage VS a spell if your hidden. advantage by using your mage hand spell ( a cantrip) so if you cannot hide you can still have advantage and Spell thief, you steal a spell lvl 4 or less that target include you (liek fireball) from an opponent. The DC might be in favor of the full spell caster, but if your lucky enought to succeed (or if you got a wizard divinor that got a low portent roll)  you could make sure the ennemie doesn't this spell again today and nullify the effect of it, and cast that spell back at him. So if he cast fireball, you can cancel fireball, remove fireball from the opponent prepared list and add it to yours.   Then add on this the ability to unlock and disarm trap from far away so if you fail your not caught in the explosion. The ability to cast wizard spell up to level 4 (mostly illusion and enchantment, but still pretty effectif)
#3 FrankJones Aug 21, 2014 21:14:40	I don't follow your first paragraph. Whether you're melee or ranged, your offhand attack will add your ability modifier. That should be a robust +5 pretty fast. Adding a static +5 potentially every round is significant.    I don't know if you're assuming advantage is necessary because of a misunderstanding of the SA requirements or for crit fishing, which I hadn't thought of (has anyone run the numbers on crit fishing for rogues?).    But I would have assumed that it would be to the rogue's benefit to forego hiding every round to get two attacks in for two shots at SA and a crit. Cunning action nets me advantage but I lose my offhand attack.   With cunning action I have two rolls in which I can achieve up to my SA + W x 2 and modifier.    With twf I have two rolls in which I can achieve my SA + W x 2 and modifier PLUS another W x 2 and modifier.    Why would I waste my bonus action to hide? Especially since I have to fight not to do so at disadvantage?   By the time I get spell thief I wonder how beneficial it would be to steal and nullify mist level 4 or under spells. I'd hope that everyone in the party would have some means to soak or duck it. The rogue shouldn't be taking any AOE from that fireball for example.
#4 Kalani Aug 21, 2014 21:25:24	Also, the rules for hiding in the PHB make it that much harder for a rogue to simply use their cunning action to hide each round..... It clearly states you cannot hide from anything that sees you, so unless you duck out of sight (that is, total concealment), such as by moving around a corner - you cannot hide as per RAW.   Likewise, moving out of cover will almost always make you visible to the enemy, removing your advantage. The only time this would not apply is outside of combat when the enemy is looking the other way, and providing you successfully sneak up on them.
#5 Jvance420 Aug 21, 2014 21:34:45	Hmmm..I honestly hadn't considered this. I had been debating on a warlock2/rogue18 and trying to make that work, but I must confess...this may have just taken that ideas spot lol.. I see the idea the same as the OP and it sounds pretty solid. I enjoy the assassin path more though, it feels more roguish and with supposedly more reason to RP in this edition, I can see how it makes it more appealing.
(Reply to #4) FrankJones	Kalani wrote:
#7 Mommy_was_an_Orc Aug 22, 2014 5:39:24	In general, if you're talking optimization, a Rogue should go with almost any 'gain an extra attack at 5th/6th level' class for the 1st 5/6 levels, and then switch over to Rogue for most of the rest of the build. Having an extra attack is just ridiculously valuable to someone who only confirms their damage on a hit.
#8 Kalani Aug 22, 2014 8:40:34	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#9 Mommy_was_an_Orc Aug 22, 2014 9:47:39	Kalani wrote: