Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Incendavis Apr 12, 2015 16:16:32	So my DM and I are homebrewing a Swashbuckler Class for me and we are both working on it and than we take the best of both and combine them.  Here is my rough draft for a basic Swashbuckler subclass Note I do not have the lvl 17 ability for it on there. Also please add sugguestions to what I could do to make this better thanks!   Swashbuckler ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Fighting Style at 3rd level with this archetype the Swashbuckler picks one fighting style Two Weapon Fighting - When you engage in two weapon fighting you can add your ability mod to the damage of the second attack Archery - Gain a bonus +2 to attack rolls you make with ranged weapons Dueling - when you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon   Combat Superiority when you choose this archtype at 3rd level you learn maneuvers that are fueld by special dice called superiority dice. Manuevers - you learn two maneuvers of you choice. You learn 1 additional manuever at 9th, 13th,  and 17th level Superiority Dice- you have 4 superiority dice which are d8s. A superiority dice is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice when you finish a long or short rest. You gain another superiority dice at 9th and 13th level Duelists Cunning - You can exchange on sneak attack damage die to refund one Superiority dice Saving throws. Some of your maneuvers require your target to make a saving throw to resist the effects. the Saving dc is calc as followed 8 + Prof Bonus + Dex Mod Extra Attack at 9th level you can choose to make the attack action twice. Artful Dodger at 13th level whenever you use Uncanny Dodge or Evasion target opponent has disadvantage on the attack roll and you have advantage against target foe on your next turn.   17th level... HELP!
#2 EmpactWB Apr 12, 2015 16:56:05	Duelist's Cunning seems overly strong. There's no inherent limit, so as written one could do that every attack to have effectively unlimited Superiority dice. Maybe have one use per short or long rest? Then it works out similar to a high level Fighter who regularly novas in the first fight between rests.    Extra Attack should be rephrased as the existing trait in other classes.   You don't actively use Evasion or Uncanny Dodge, so by a strict reading Artful Dodger doesn't function at all. Advantage on what? Attack rolls, ability checks, everything?
#3 Saeviomagy Apr 12, 2015 19:31:33	Given the existence of both eldritch knight and arcane trickster, and how similar they are, I think your best bet would be to simply take the entire battlemaster subclass and use it with no changes on a rogue. To my eye that would seem to be fairly balanced.   Certainly don't go around making new manuevers that give you infinite superiority dice.
#4 FabulousRex Apr 12, 2015 21:16:34	It's not generally great to straight up poach another class' features.  Try working with what the Rogue gives you...     Swashbuckler Lvl3 Feature- Panache- When you use Cunning Action, you can Dodge in addition to your other options   Swashbuckler Lvl9 Feature- Create Opening- Enemies that miss you with an attack roll grant advantage to you until the end of your next turn.   Swashbuckler Lvl13 Feature- Artful Dodger- When you use Uncanny Dodge, you may move up to 10 feet ignoring difficult (but not impassible) terrain, without provoking Opportunity Attacks. You may move through opponent's spaces.   Swashbuckler Lvl17 Feature- Stinging Retort- When an enemy misses you with a melee attack, you may attack the opponent that missed you as a reaction, gaining Advantage on the attack.  If you hit, your attack is considered a critical hit. If your dice also roll a critical hit, double the damage of your critical hit. After you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest to use it again.     All that stuff builds on existing Rogue features to make a slippery, highly mobile PC who punishes people who attack her.  It lets you play more recklessly, able to get in and out of jams with style and speed.  The damage feature is similiar but different to the Assassins', and a lvl17 Rogue that can score an auto-crit per encounter is a pretty frightful opponent!
(Reply to #4) Macv12	FabulousRex wrote:
#6 transcendantviewer Apr 12, 2015 20:26:32	In my opinion, I would say give them a feature that lets them exchange sneak attack dice for a bonus to their Armor Class. Preferably at a rate of two dice for each +1. That way they can trade being an ambusher for being a temporary frontline fighter. The sneak attack dice shouldn't come back until the rogue finishes a short or long rest. I would word it as "You can exchange your Sneak Attack Extra Dice to increase your Armor Class. When you complete a Short or Long rest, you choose a number of dice to exchange. Until you finish another short or long rest, this exchange persists. For each 2 Sneak Attack Dice you give up, you increase your Armor Class by 1, to a maximum bonus of +3" Then, perhaps their 9th level ability could be something along the lines of an emergency heal, similar to Fighters. I don't know what to recommend for the 13th or 17th level abilities.
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 12, 2015 20:21:26	The phrasing you want for Duelist's Cunning is: "If you have no superiority dice remaining, you can convert (some number) of Sneak Attack dice into superiority dice, except they are d6. Your Sneak Attack damage is reduced by a corresponing amount. After you use this ability, you cannot use it again until you finish a short rest; once you finish that rest, all converted Sneak Attack dice return to normal.". Suggestion: Int mod for (some number).
#8 FabulousRex Apr 12, 2015 21:14:17	Macv12 wrote:
#9 cowleymen Apr 13, 2015 0:18:06	FabulousRex wrote:
(Reply to #4) Danny_Montanny	FabulousRex wrote:
#11 Danny_Montanny Apr 13, 2015 6:22:28	Maybe add this in.   Derring-Do You attempt an acrobatic stunt to gain the upper hand against an enemy. As a bonus action, you and an enemy you choose make opposed Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks. If you succeed, your next melee attack against the enemy has Advantage.
#12 Felwyn Apr 13, 2015 11:19:21	FabulousRex wrote:
#13 supreme_slayer Apr 13, 2015 11:35:34	Most of the features people have been mentioning in this thread seem extremely overpowered to me. Remember as well that all of the Rogue archetypes have abilities that are related to exploration/roleplaying, and not just power. The same goes for the Battlemaster, which is another class being emulated here.
#14 Incendavis Apr 13, 2015 11:51:19	Thanks for all these great ideas guys! I know that my build for the Swashbuckler was really bad but I didn't want to make it too.... idk but I really do like this Felwyn wrote:
#15 Danny_Montanny Apr 13, 2015 12:07:53	Some charismatic flair is missing. Proficiency in Performance? Some sort of disadvantage if you demoralize someone with a taunt? Where's the actual panache?
#16 Felwyn Apr 13, 2015 13:17:11	I don’t think the rogue needs an extra attack, and if it was given would really up the power of the class. Their sneak attack makes up for their lack of extra attack. I do agree that some roleplaying things may need to be added instead of just straight combat stuff. This could be done by removing the fighting style for something more roleplayingish, like something to do with CHA checks and Acrobatics Checks. I can definitely see what people are saying.    Going off the precedent of Arcane Trickster. They get spells and a modification to their cunning action at 3, so we follow that except the AC bonus is not very roleplaying focused like their modification is. Maybe +1 AC and advantage on their next acrobatics check or performance check or something like that to taunt. The fighting style fills the spells role (not as good but we are not trying to make it "As Good" Level 9 AT get Magical Ambush, that is pretty sweet. Our build gets advantage on their first attack against a target if they are missed. I can see why that feels OP but if we did the AC modification that I outlined before, Rogues arent looking at having a bunch of AC. Where the arcane trickster can knock a person out of the combat with their ambush, the swashbuckler can more reliably get there sneak attack off. I think that is fair. Level 13- Arcane Tricksters can BA to get advantage. That is more versatile than out level 9 feature, but we don’t have to spend an action. Cool. Our level 13 ability gives us a way to move away from a target and maybe not get hit as much. It costs us our reaction and effectively so HP to do. I think this is fair. Level 17- Arcane Tricksters get the ability to negate a spell and steal it for themselves. Assassins can double their damage against a surprised foe. AT is 1/LR and Assassin is always on, but limited in scope. To accommodate for this, we could put a limitation on the stinging retort to once per short rest. If we impose this limitation we might want to increase its potency. So all together our proposed archetypes are not too far off than what is offered already.   My suggesstion (based off FabulousRex's work)   Swashbuckler (Rogue Subclass)   Swashbuckler Lvl3 Feature- Quick Feet: Increase your base land speed by 5ft. When you use your cunning action to disengage or dash, you gain a +2 bonus to your Armor Class.   Justification- We thought dodge for effectively free was too good. Monks have to spend ki to do it. So we changed it to go with the mobility theme.    Fighting Style: At 3rd level with this archetype the Swashbuckler picks one fighting style Two Weapon Fighting - When you engage in two weapon fighting you can add your ability mod to the damage of the second attack   Dueling - when you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon     Justification: This just makes sesne when making a mobile warrior the the swashbuckler is   Swashbuckler Lvl9 Feature- Exploit Opening- When an enemy misses you with a melee attack, you gain Advantage on your next melee attack roll against that enemy.   Justification- No Change, we really like this feature   Swashbuckler Lvl13 Feature- Artful Dodger- When you use Uncanny Dodge, you may move up to half your speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks.     Justification: We thought this would make more sense for the ability and that the ignore difficult terrain was just too good. I dont think it would be game breaking to let them ignore difficult terrain so adding it back in wouldnt kill this ability   Swashbuckler Lvl17 Feature- Stinging Retort- When an enemy misses you with a melee attack, you may make a melee attack against the enemy as a reaction. You may crit on an 18-20 with this attack. If this attack hits, the enemy cannot take reactions untill the start of your next turn.   Justification- We didnt want to step on the Assassins toes with auto crits, so instead we made the crit range bigger for this attack. Free off turn attacks is really amazing enough. We added in the reaction part beacuse it would make sense to unblance them and really helps with the mobiloty of the character.
#17 Felwyn Apr 13, 2015 13:41:40	How about this (Changes in bold and italic)   Swashbuckler (Rogue Subclass)   Swashbuckler Lvl3 Feature- Quick Steps, Charming Smile: When you use your Cunning Action to use the Disengage or Dash action, you gain a +1 bonus to your Armor Class. Choose one skill from the following list: Acrobatics, Deception, Persuasion or Intimidation. You gain proficiency in this skill if you are not already proficient and may double your proficiency bonus when using this skill.   Fighting Style: At 3rd level with this archetype the Swashbuckler picks one of the following fighting styles: Two Weapon Fighting - When you engage in two weapon fighting you can add your ability mod to the damage of the second attack   Dueling - when you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon   Swashbuckler Lvl9 Feature- Exploit Opening- When an enemy misses you with a melee attack, you gain Advantage on your next melee attack roll against that enemy. You may only gain this benefit once per turn.   Swashbuckler Lvl13 Feature- Artful Dodger- When you use Uncanny Dodge, you may move up to half your speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks from the enemy that triggered your Uncanny Dodge.   Swashbuckler Lvl17 Feature- Stinging Retort- When an enemy misses you with a melee attack, you may make a melee attack against the enemy as a reaction. If the attack hits, the attack automatically considered a critical hit and the enemy may not take reactions until the start of your next turn. Once you use this ability, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.   Justification: The level 3 ability still gives you a little more defense, and also adds in a good role playing element.  The Level 9 ability is to stop a multi attacking rogue from getting advantage on multiple foes in a turn. Artful Dodger was changed to make it a little less powerful but still very potent in a dual. I upped the power on Stinging retort but made it a once per short or long rest ability. I think that brings it in line.
#18 Danny_Montanny Apr 13, 2015 15:19:28	Still doesn't feel right. It's not dashing enough. It's still all combat-centric. Dueling is one thing, and an important one, but it's not the only thing they should be good at. I move for:   Roguish Charm Your quick wit and silver tongue are legendary. You recieve a d4 bonus to all Charisma based skill checks.   People spam Gidance all the time, so as a 6th level ability, I think this would be just fine for an "always on" power.
#19 Felwyn Apr 13, 2015 15:41:41	That works, just change the first ability to  Quick Steps, Charming Smile: Your base land speed increases by 5ft and when you use your Cunning Action to use the Disengage or Dash action, you gain a +2 bonus to your Armor Class. You receive a 1d4 bonus to all charisma based ability and skill checks (not saving throws) and all Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks.   You then could remove the fighting style beacuse this is a pretty awesome ability   So now it would look like this:     Swashbuckler (Rogue Subclass)   Swashbuckler Lvl3 Feature- Quick Steps, Charming Smile: Your base land speed increases by 5ft and when you use your Cunning Action to use the Disengage or Dash action, you gain a +2 bonus to your Armor Class. You receive a 1d4 bonus to all Charisma (Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation, Performance) checks and all Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks.   Swashbuckler Lvl9 Feature- Exploit Opening- When an enemy misses you with a melee attack, you gain Advantage on your next melee attack roll against that enemy. You may only gain this benefit once per turn.   Swashbuckler Lvl13 Feature- Artful Dodger- When you use Uncanny Dodge, you may move up to half your speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks from the enemy that triggered your Uncanny Dodge.   Swashbuckler Lvl17 Feature- Stinging Retort- When an enemy misses you with a melee attack, you may make a melee attack against the enemy as a reaction. If the attack hits, the attack is automatically considered a critical hit and the enemy may not take reactions until the start of your next turn. Once you use this ability, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
#20 FabulousRex Apr 13, 2015 17:10:51	Nice!  Good to see some balance added, I was just throwing together some ideas I had after watching some Errol Flynn clips.  He doesn't stand his ground and fight, he darts around and keeps from being surrounded.   As for all combat, well, that IS kinda the theme for this subclass.  All of the Arcane Trickster's abilities are combat-worthy magic tricks.  All of the Thief's are combat usable as well, with an emphasis on creative tactics and theft.  Plus, I think it would be a great way to showcase a more daring Acrobatic rogue, one of the subtypes of Rogue from 4e.  A nice bonus to CHA skills seems quite nice and Dashing.    Everything else looks great as fas as I can tell!
#21 Danny_Montanny Apr 13, 2015 18:09:42	How about:   Demoralizing Banter Your taunts are particularly vicious. As an action, make a Charisma (Performance) check against a creature within 30 feet that can hear and understand you. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw with a DC equal to your Charisma (Performance) check. If the target fails it's save, it has disadvantage on it's next attack roll, ability check, or saving throw.
#22 Felwyn Apr 13, 2015 20:19:48	I did some more thinking and came up with this.: Level 3 I changed Quick steps into only +1 ac when dash or disengage and gave the 5ft speed increase. I added in an expertise like bonus to acorbatics. I then added a Rogusih Charm Ability (Thanks Danny_Montanny) to give the swashbuckler a non magaical friends spells. The effect seems very Jack Sparrow ish to me.   Level 13 I changed to a static 10ft to stick with the langauge 5e usually uses. The gist of the ability is for them to duck out of reach when using the ability and 10ft seems perfectly fine to me. I would only increase it to 15 if I were to increase it.   Swashbuckler Lvl 3 Feature(s)- Quick Steps: Your base land speed increases by 5ft and when you use your Cunning Action to use the Disengage or Dash action, you gain a +1 bonus to your Armor Class. Double your proficency bonus on all Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks.   Roguish Charm: When interacting with a creature that is not hostile towards the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler may choose to gain advantage on all charisma checks directed at that creature for one minute. After the duration, the creature realizes you used your disarming charm to take advantage of them and the creature becomes hostile towards you. A creature prone to violence might attack you, when another creature might seek retribution in other ways, at the DM’s discretion.   Swashbuckler Lvl 9 Feature- Exploit Opening- When an enemy misses you with a melee attack, you gain Advantage on your next melee attack roll against that enemy. You may only gain this benefit once per turn.   Swashbuckler Lvl 13 Feature- Artful Dodger- When you use Uncanny Dodge, you may move up to 10ft without provoking Opportunity Attacks from the enemy that triggered your Uncanny Dodge.   Swashbuckler Lvl 17 Feature- Stinging Retort- When an enemy misses you with a melee attack, you may make a melee attack against the enemy as a reaction. If the attack hits, the attack is automatically considered a critical hit and the enemy may not take reactions until the start of your next turn. Once you use this ability, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.