Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Huntsman57 Dec 05, 2014 21:57:29	I never felt that spells like Confusion or Domination were OP for their level in 2nd or 3rd edition, and yet in the editions afterwards, clearly a growing attempt has been made to weaken them. In some cases, this adds flavor, as with Flesh to Stone, but it's driving effective magic use into the realm of mostly damage based save for half spells.   Aside from the fact that a successful saving throw has no effect on the target, even if they fail there are plenty of opportunities to shake off the effects of the spell on the following rounds. Furthermore, many of these spells now require concentration, making them even easier to thwart. This is to say nothing of those few beasties with epic resistence. There aren't many of them, but when you face off against them you won't be happy.   I do get it; save or suck spells in earlier editions really weren't fun for anyone. If the target saved then the caster felt like he wasted his time, but if the target failed, that single failed role could be catastrophic for him, and there was little chance to save himself without your party mage having Dispel Magic or something similar memorized. I feel the fix that's called for is to keep the current 5E system, but with the following changes:   -1 while the target will get the later round saving throw rerolls as dictated by the spell, these saving throws are made with disadvantage   -2 during his initial saving throw roll, even if the target makes his save, he is dazed and suffers disadvantage on some of his rolls for 1 round   -3 while I overall like the concentration system, I would like to submit the following changes:   A- the concentrating player need only save vs the single highest damaging attack during the round, not every attack   B- there will be a DC cap for losing concentration from taking damage of 20. That means if you have a 20 CON and are proficient wih a +6 from that, you will still need to roll a 9 or better, which is still a reasonable chance of failure. At the other end of the spectrum, a caster not proficient in CON saves would still need a roll between a 15-20 to succeed. In fact, perhaps the cap should be 15.   Thoughts?
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 05, 2014 22:34:43	My thoughts are simple: Figuring out exactly when a spell is "balanced enough" is a really difficult thing... unless that spell only does damage.
(Reply to #2) Daydreamer80	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#4 Huntsman57 Dec 06, 2014 11:28:20	It may be difficult to balance precisely, but we merely need to keep the save or sucks competative with the damage spells. I have to feel this is reasonably easy to estimate. Lets take dominate person and compare it to cone of cold. We test both spells in a combat encounter at a few different dcs to estimate if and for how long a target would be effected by that spell, and compare the average damage dealt by cone of cold vs the average damage dealt by the dominated person and the damage saved from being dealt to enemies. Of course we have to estimate the average number of enemies effected by the cone of cold. Ultimately it needs to be playtested in numerous combat scenarios. One would expect that the devs performed these tests but if they did I can't help but feel like they came up with incorrect results. All this aside. From a caster's POV save or sucks are just a liability. Why would i spend a round casting a spell that may not even work, and if it does work there's a strong possibility that next round it won't be. Dealing damage with a save for half is simply a far more reliable method of being effective. My solutions of creating a lesser effect to the target, making repetitious saves harder to make, and making the really tough concentration rules a bit lighter seem like a good balance.
(Reply to #3) Ashrym	Daydreamer80 wrote:
#6 Huntsman57 Dec 06, 2014 15:27:25	I think most folks would agree that when a caster throws a spell at someone, even if that spell doesn't have the full effect he was hoping for, he is happy that it did indeed do sometihng. Thus, to a large part, the popularity of damage dealing spells. The most critical improvement to save or suck spells, then, should be to change them to not be save or suck. There should be some reduced effect to a target even if they do make their save.
#7 Kentus Dec 06, 2014 17:05:49	You know, there are ways to ensure those save and suckers for your caster. Like 'Heightened Spell' for sorcerers? And if it works, it's great!Just last session, a lucky wizard shrank a dragon, which was awesome! :D   For save and suckers I normally roll openly for the players, so they can damn or congratulate their luck.
(Reply to #5) Daydreamer80	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #8) Ashrym	Daydreamer80 wrote:
#10 Daydreamer80 Dec 07, 2014 15:54:52	Mutliclassing and feats complicate things, generally boosting things in martial classes favor.   But still, keep in mind meteor swarm is an aoe, u could potentionally kill 50 hill giants with one cast.