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| #1ElfcrusherNov 01, 2014 18:57:26 | What's the best level split for this multiclass?
Monk 6 seems to be the minimum, 'cause without the Nightcrawler Bampf! what's the point? And Rogue 14 gets Blindsense....which will be useful in conjuction with Darkness.
But Monk 9 gives you Improved Unarmored Movement (running up walls? yes, please) and Rogue 11 still gets you a total of 5 Ability Improvements plus Reliable Talent, only losing 1d6 on Sneak Attack.
Then Shadow Monk 11 gets you Invisibility when in dim light or darker, plus increases your damage to 1d8. At Rogue 9 you've lost another 1d6 of Sneak Attack damage, and now you only get a total of 4 Ability Improvements.
So I'm thinking either Rogue 14 / Monk 6, or Rogue 11 / Monk 9. (One thing I love about this build is that I can use daggers but not be stuck at measly 1d4 damage with them.)
And how about race & feats/improvements? I was thinking Variant Human with Observant & Alert, then Dex and Wisdom to 20.
An alternative would be Wood Elf. With point-buy could still get to 20/20 with both of those feats, but not with standard array. |
| #2YunruNov 02, 2014 3:57:35 | Monk 6. Then Warlock 2 to nab Devil's Sight so you can cast that Darkness on yourself and be unaffected. Possibly Warlock 3 if you want to save Ki. Then Rogue the rest of the way. Darkness+Devil's Sight lets you teleport anywhere, and the secondary feature ensures advantage even if you're facing foes with Devil's Sight themselves. |
| #3ElfcrusherNov 02, 2014 5:18:22 | Maybe it's more powerful in some situations by dipping into warlock, but that's getting TOO powergamey for me. Or, at least, it doesn't fit my character concept.
In general I'm not a fan of multi classing, but shadow monk / assassin makes sense to me. But I think that's as far as I'm willing to go. |
| #4YunruNov 02, 2014 5:25:19 | Eh? How could it be discribed as gamey? You work in shadows, you're going to want to see through them unimpeded. Especially if you're a human and not picking up skulker. It's about as gamey as say "I can't walk so I'll use a wheelchair." As for how to potentially RP it... give yourself up to the darkness (GOO) or something. |
| #5MistingNov 02, 2014 5:56:15 |
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| #6ElfcrusherNov 02, 2014 6:07:29 | I suppose I could come up with a backstory to rationalize it, but in this case the secretive assassins-for-hire that train this particular character don't also have a pact with a fiend/great old one/fey...
Bear in mind that I'm generally opposed to multiclassing, so even going with two classes is a stretch for me. It can't just be to poach a couple of abilities; the whole concept has to work (again, for me personally...not judging others here.) So in the thread where I'm trying to figure out a priest with no armor and a staff....in my mind that fits my image of a monk, and they're both quasi-religious, based on Wisdom, etc.
Adding a charisma-based caster class to a dex/wisdom melee character just doesn't fit conceptually, even if one or two of the abilities have synergy.
Fluff is important to me. |
| #7YunruNov 02, 2014 6:16:32 | Eh then Darkness is nicht so gut. Still as mentioned, if you've not Darkvision pick up Skulker. Although I'd like to again point out a Great Old One can be literally anyone and anything, you might not even know you've formed a pack with one. |
| #8ElfcrusherNov 02, 2014 6:26:55 |
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| #9ElfcrusherNov 02, 2014 6:33:43 | By the way, one of the ways I'm envisioning using Darkness is to drop it not on directly on my target, but to use it to block the main light source, creating shadows. I.e., put it in a treetop to block the sun, or on the wall with the windows.
I wish Darkness could be controlled so that you could make it mostly dark... Why isn't there a "Deep Shadows" spell? |
| #10ElfcrusherNov 02, 2014 9:42:17 | And what are people's thoughts about starting with Monk vs. starting with Rogue? I've been assuming Rogue first for the extra proficiencies. But....any reason to start with Monk? |
| #11YunruNov 02, 2014 9:45:52 | Better AC off the bat I guess? Quicker access to Shadow'port for sure. Thematically Monk makes a better assassin than a rogue during the early levels. |
| #12BRJNNov 02, 2014 11:23:06 | ElfCrusher, You get more by m/c'ing into Rogue than by m/c'ing into Monk. An extra skill (from a helpful list) plus cool tool proficiencies, vs some weapons that don't support Sneak Attack. A monk starts with an extra attack (as in die roll) from Martial Arts. The Monk1 gets (W+mods)+(1d4+mods), where the Rogue1 gets (W+1d6+mods). Advantage monk. At L2, a monk can get (W+mods)+(1d4+mods)+(1d4+mods) with Flurry of Blows vs Rogue (W+1d6+mods) with Sneak Attack. Advantage Monk. (Note that a Monk1/Rogue1 character gets (W+1d6+mods)+(1d4+mods). Unless you have skill problems to patch up with Expertise, it may be better to wait and m/c at Monk2/Rogue1.) |
| #13ElfcrusherNov 02, 2014 11:27:38 | Monks get damage bonus on their free unarmed attack? I had always assumed it was like two-weapon fighting and therefore didn't get the bonus. |
| #14BRJNNov 02, 2014 11:29:51 | BTW, my "Radar O'Reilley" scout Monk is going to m/c Rogue1 for Expertise(Perception) but I've decided not to dip all the way to Assassin. Being super sneaky is fun and all, but Radar's job is to get the information and get out, not to annihilate enemies all by himself. YMMV - and it sounds like OP does want to annihilate unsuspecting enemies all by himself. |
| #15BRJNNov 02, 2014 11:35:23 |
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| #16ElfcrusherNov 02, 2014 12:11:57 |
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| #17ElfcrusherNov 02, 2014 12:20:35 | So if I go Variant Human I get a total of 6 feats, including initial one. This might not be mathematically optimal, but I'm seriously thinking about only going to 18's in Dex and Wisdom, so that I can take FOUR feats: Alert Skulker Mage Slayer Lucky
That just sounds like a more fun character than having fewer feats and higher stats. |
| #18YunruNov 02, 2014 12:27:42 | Skulker should be your starting feat, to counter some of the human's vision problems. Two-Weapon Fighting is not a generic thing; if you're not specifically using TWF it doesn't apply, thus attribute mod bonuses to any attack bar one granted by TWF. |
| #19ElfcrusherNov 02, 2014 12:40:21 | Well if I go Monk first then definitely Skulker, as Alert isn't critical until I've got the Assassin skill.
And I think I buy that argument about unarmed attack. I assumed it was the same thing, but you're right...the rule specifically applies to TWF, not bonus attacks.
Weird...I'll be playing a rogue with a weapon in only one hand. Although...it would probably behoove me to wield two daggers anyway, because: 1) I can still choose to use an "unarmed attack" for my bonus attack, even if I have weapons in both hands. (It's a kick or head-butt, I guess.) 2) I still want the option of attacking with a finesse weapon if both of my regular attacks happen to miss, in order to proc Sneak Attack
And I love the fact that my daggers will do 1d6 because they count as "monk weapons".
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| #20Danny_MontannyNov 03, 2014 5:31:56 | All optimization aside, I would think about how you feel his training would progress. For me, I could see them not teaching you how to access your Ki until you've at least learned the Art of Instant Death (Assassinate). So they give you your basic training in skills and martial arts (Monk at 1st level) and send you out in the world to hone those skills. As you gain experience your strikes become more deadly (Sneak Attack), your Stealth and Perception are heightened (Expertise), and you've pickle up a new skill to add to your list. You learn to take advantage of your battleground and move at the speed of thought (Cunning Action). After you've mastered Assasination you can return to unlock your true power. Maybe you wait a while before you return, picking up some more along the way (Feat or possibly even Evasion). You come back and progress your Monk training, becoming fully indoctrinated into the Shadow Way at level 6.
Alternatively, maybe their power does come from an external source. If you have a sufficient force of self (Charisma), you must swear yourself to the Grandfather of Shadows or die. You learn to throw a shuriken with amazing force (Eldritch Blast with modified M component), and even manipulate the shadow of other creatures to hinder them and syphon some their life energy when you strike them (Hex). The Grandfather grants you more power as you get stronger.
Personally, I would go Monk to start, Rogue to 4 for a feat, then Monk to 6. Then whatever you want from there. Need more defense? Pick up Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, even though I think Monk gives them too (don't have PHB with me). |
| #21ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 7:45:39 | Well, the backstory would probably make sense with a couple of levels of Roguery first...standard street thief kind of stuff...but the Assassination sub-class, and all the Monk stuff...would come later. So I'll probably start with at least Rogue 1. After that I might alternate levels until I cap Monk. That's not optimal, but I'm still overcoming my resistance to multiclassing and doing them together feels the best.
Can anybody offer guidance (preferably via example scenarios) on how these various abilities interact? The threads on Stealth/Hiding seem to devolve into pissing matches over whether rogues are OP or not. Let's say I'm in a fight, and there's a caster in the back standing in/near what the DM rules is "dim light".
1) If I'm standing in the same, I can blink to him as a bonus action. Does that have to be after my attack, or can it be before? 2) If I'm not standing in dim light, could I just move to the shadow of, say, a stone column and use that? (If I were DMing I would rule that a Halfling could do the same with the shadow of an ally, as long as it wasn't mid-day or something like that.) 3) As long as I'm higher in the initiative order, I would then get Advantage against the caster for my attack(s). (Bonus was used for teleporting.) Are there any other advantages? Is it possible to also surprise somebody in combat? Logically it feels like it should work. I mean, the caster may have seen me disappear "way over there" but, depending on circumstances, the last thing he may expect* is to suddenly get a dagger in the kidneys. And it's not like I have to "sneak up" once I'm back there: assuming conditions are right I appear in attack position and a moment later stab away. Sounds like surprise to me. Yes, that does sound overpowered to be able to get a free crit....but....in this case it's only the OP-ness that makes me doubt its validity, or it's fairness anyway, not the logic/realism. 4) This is probably entirely DM dependant, but even if somebody is directly staring at me, if I port out of their line of sight...such as behind them...shouldn't I get a decent chance of hiding? From their point of view they would have just seen me disappear.
Thoughts? Rule citations? What have I overlooked missed?
*Yes, other than the Spanish Inquisition. |
| #22YunruNov 03, 2014 7:52:29 | Monk is better mechanically to start with. Ignore the suggested RP, your characters entirely yours. Maybe (s)hes part of an order of assassins who wont teach you their art until you master travelling through the shadows. Maybe your guy was learning under an order of Monks before quitting and turning to crime. Maybe you were a regular criminal recruited into a shadowy order. It's your story, you decide. But Monk is the optimal mechanical choice. |
| #23YunruNov 03, 2014 7:55:39 | As for shadow-porting, you've got it completely correct right down to the iffy-ness of getting surprise from it. A kind DM would probably grant it, I personally would just say that's what the advantage represents. |
| #24ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 8:21:20 |
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| #25YunruNov 03, 2014 8:36:51 | Weapons which you don't use yes. And you do get one skill earlier (you'll get it anyway when you MC). By comparison starting Monk gets you Unarmored Defense from the get go, among other things. |
| #26ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 8:44:54 |
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| #27YunruNov 03, 2014 8:57:07 | Bows don't count as Monk weapons, although if you're not foing beyond 1d6 on the Monk weapon damage that hardly matters. |
| #28Danny_MontannyNov 03, 2014 9:25:49 | Pertaining to #3. Surprise, and by extension, the crit from Assassinate can only happen in the first round of combat. Either a creature is surprised at the start of combat, or they aren't. They're no longer surprised after their first turn is over. Outside of actually being surprised, the surprise the caster would feel is represented by the advantage you get on the attack after you Shadow Step. |
| #29ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 9:30:17 |
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| #30ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 9:32:20 |
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| #31YunruNov 03, 2014 9:34:24 | But if you stick with daggers you can also stab them with a Ki poison that completely disables them. Or in non-fluff terms, Stunning Strike. |
| #32ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 9:42:03 |
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| #33YunruNov 03, 2014 9:43:33 | Unfortunately not, it's melee (weapon?) attacks only. |
| #34ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 9:56:51 |
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| #35YunruNov 03, 2014 10:00:57 | I don't know, even thrown daggers are still monk weapons, which'd put them on par with the Hand Crossbow. |
| #36ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 10:05:02 |
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| #37YunruNov 03, 2014 10:07:57 | I meant for damage. A thrown dagger will do 1d6 at Monk level 6 iirc. Which is the same as a Hand Crossbow. Regular bows idk the damage for however, so I can't compare. |
| #38ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 10:27:56 |
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| #39YunruNov 03, 2014 10:32:29 | All Martial Arts work at any range, as long as you use only Monk weapons and don't wear armor or a shield. It makes a thrown weapon Monk viable. |
| #40ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 10:53:27 |
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| #41YunruNov 03, 2014 11:25:11 | How's it vague? Martial Arts apply if you meet the following: ●You are not wearing armor ●You are not using a shield●You are using only Monk weapons or Unarmed Strike |
| #42ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 12:37:39 |
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| #43YunruNov 03, 2014 12:43:40 | But thrown melee weapons are throw melee weapons. They're explicitly still melee weapons even when thrown. |
| #44ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 13:59:08 |
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| (Reply to #41)Writhani |
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| #46ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 14:15:41 |
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| #47YunruNov 03, 2014 14:21:32 | I'll assume you're talking about the fighting style. In which case I'd point out that it requires armor, which stops Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement/Whatever. |
| #48MiladoonNov 03, 2014 14:26:57 | Yunru is correct. A melee weapon is throwable if it has the thrown property. The property itself does not make the weapon a ranged weapon. It falls into the same reasoning that a javelin is still a melee weapon and a rogue can not apply SA when they throw it as a thrown, melee weapon. I am quick to houserule a javelin as a finesse weapon in that case.
But alas.
As far as the OP. I have fallen away from multiclassing. I would go shadow monk all the way. But that is if I was going with your concept. My favorite monk is the 4elements monk. Right now I play one that uses a greatsword and waterwhip. When going range, he flys and fires with longbow, then waterwhips and drops his target for falling damage. Doesn't hurt to be flying over a pit of acid or the druid's spike growth spell.
I suppose I could take the Hired Killer background if I wanted to be assassiny. |
| #49ElfcrusherNov 03, 2014 14:38:39 |
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| #50YunruNov 03, 2014 14:40:35 | Yeah I was refering to the defensive fighting style, low signal area so I didn't have the patience to check. |
| #51WrithaniNov 03, 2014 15:52:51 |
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| #52MiladoonNov 03, 2014 17:38:45 | Weapon Master for Longsword, Greatsword, Glaive, and Longbow and +1Dex. I thought about going Maul instead of Greatsword. Something about stunning attacks with an oversized sledge hammer was pretty tempting. |
| (Reply to #44)Coredump00 |
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| (Reply to #53)Writhani |
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| #55SmashpunkNov 04, 2014 2:32:45 |
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| #56ElfcrusherNov 04, 2014 5:48:21 |
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| #57SorxoresNov 04, 2014 12:28:44 | I am currently playing a similar build:
Warlock 2 (for devil sight and at will detect magic) and the Hex spell. Rogue3 (assassin, for free critical hit) Then monk 11 (shadow step)
So basically I approach my target stealthly. when I get 60 ft near, I shadow step in the shadow of my target (if your DM think this is too cheesy, then use minor illusion to create a cloud or something that will provide enought shadow so you can teleport. Then I teleport(bonus action) and become invisible (action) in the dim light near my target. If the target is moving, then I predict where he will be and teleport ahead of him so my set up is ready.
Next round I cast Hex (my dm ruled that target are unaware of the Hex until they try to use the Hex stats and receive damage, so i target a stats that target doesn't seem to be using. then I ready action if they notice me I,ll run away.
Then on the 3rd round, (no one know the fight started yet so still in surprise) I attack my target, he is surprise so I get automatic critical hits, and he didn't act yet so i get advantage on all my attacks. Action: 2 attack: 1d6+1d8+5each attack Bonus action: Flurry of blows: 2 attack: 1d6+1d8+5each Plus sneak attack: 2d6. for a total of 6d6+4d8+20
Now all the dice are doubled because of crit: 12d6+8d8+20 for an average damage of 98 damages. If the target is not dead yet, my last attack will be done with stunning attack so I'll have advantage on all my attack next round.
In team fight, I Hex the main enemy making him weak to wisdom so the wizard can dominate him forcing him to fight his allies, or I'll hex the dex of the rogue type monster so he get affected by the fireball.
I can position myself very easily on the battlefield, making it easy to reach the front line to pour a potion in the fighter mouth to bring him back up, and able to go back in the back line to protect the caster when he get attack by behind.
Then casting darkness on the ennemy is very powerful. With Devil sight I have advantage on all attack and all ennemies got disavantage against me. The druid transform into spider form (blindsight) so he can see what happening. The other party member have advantage against the ennemies since the ennemies cannot see them, but they also have disavantage since they don't see themself, so they attack normally like if I never cast darkness, except that with my telepathy ability (fromm GOO warlock pact) I can tell them in what square the enemies are, so they still have an advantage against the ennemies who can only attack someone who already attacked them, or guess in what square to attack. The wizard simply cast AoE (so no need to see the target) or even ghost sound, to trick the enemy in thinking the group is behind them, and with my teleportation ability and my high speed I can attack them from behind then move out of danger, so the enemy are often wasting there attack attacking empty square.
This build is very fun and powerful. There is few region out of reach (since you teleport 60ft) I can easy bypass obstacle to reach target (or treasure) etc... |
| (Reply to #56)Coredump00 |
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| #59ElfcrusherNov 04, 2014 13:15:50 | The thing about the darkness devil's sight strategy is that with Alert an assassin will most likely have advantage anyway. And there's Stunning Strike in an emergency. Defensively he also has such a large toolbox between monk and rogue that I'm not sure he "needs" the target to have disadvantage. I think I'd rather get an extra Feat and take Defensive Duelist.
Also, the warlock approach is gated by the number of darkness uses, which I guess is why you want more monk levels.
It's a cool idea, for sure, but I think I'm going to stick with Rogue 14 Monk 6.
But im looking forward to reading more about how the warlock build works out. |
| (Reply to #57)Writhani |
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| (Reply to #55)Miladoon |
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| #62ElfcrusherNov 07, 2014 9:53:32 | Reviving my thread for more feedback:
My character is now 1/1, with enough XP to level up Monk or Rogue. (My personal rule for multiclassing is that I get 1 level in each class before taking anything over 1, so that the "concept" is intact as soon as possible.)
So, what should by strategy be now? I'm trying to choose whether to level up Rogue to 3 or 4, then back to Monk. Or just take Monk straight to six then get back to rogue. Getting that key Assassin ability at 3 is tempting (Advantage a lot of the time is sweet) but then once I'm there I figure I may as well go to Rogue 4 and take Alert. Plus I'll have another die of Sneak Attack damage.
Thoughts? It's a toss-up in terms of character concept now that I have 1/1. |
| #63YunruNov 07, 2014 10:03:51 | Monk to six. Sure Assassination has a nice first-turn advantage, but it only lasts one turn and is at the mercy of the dice. Shadow'porting, however, is A- cool, and B- reliable advantage. That and Rogue isn't very assassin-y beyond Assassination, especially when compared to Way of Shadow Monks. |
| #64ElfcrusherNov 07, 2014 10:10:17 |
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| #65YunruNov 07, 2014 10:11:53 | IIRC all of Assasination's benefits only last for the first round. |
| #667he_professorNov 07, 2014 10:17:05 | Correct:
Unless you can surprise a creature after the combat begins...
However, I really think that taking each class evenly until Monk 3/Rogue 3 is solid and then just go Monk after that. |
| #67ElfcrusherNov 07, 2014 10:58:48 | Oh, right. I mis-read that.
EDIT: And I suppose leveling evenly will help deflect accusations of min-maxing. :-)
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| (Reply to #62)Coredump00 |
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| #69WrithaniNov 07, 2014 11:14:23 | And then at that point you're just one level away from Bamf!-ing all over the battlefield. Though that entire time you're also just one level away from your archetype. |
| #70ElfcrusherNov 07, 2014 11:20:10 | Boy I could have used Bamf! last night. Difficult terrain all over the place. |
| #71YunruNov 07, 2014 11:29:02 | Head for Bamf! then. It's going to be an integral part of your character no? |
| #72WrithaniNov 07, 2014 13:36:28 | I concur. Bamf!-ing grants advantage each turn, depending only on being able to bamf! within your movement range of an enemy, whereas Assassin only grants advantage on your first turn against enemies who roll lower on initiative, and auto-crit hinges on gaining surprise. Plus, extra attack. |
| #73ElfcrusherNov 07, 2014 15:02:49 |
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| #74YunruNov 07, 2014 15:31:24 | Bamf!ing grants you advantage on your next attack. Are you asking for RP reasons or mechanical reasons? |
| #75ElfcrusherNov 07, 2014 15:38:56 |
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| #76Coredump00Nov 07, 2014 15:56:33 | Its pretty explicit, but I'm not a fan of the rule.
By the rule, the monk can be next to someone, bamf 50' away, move 45' back in full view of your target.... and still get advantage on the attack. Just seems wrong.
I think it should have had a range, like advantage on any target within 15', or something... |
| #77ElfcrusherNov 07, 2014 16:35:31 | Agreed. I will try to not abuse it... |
| #78YunruNov 07, 2014 18:06:52 | Had thought out post, forum technical issues causes me to lose it. Great. Anyways: Chaos of combat + not knowing where you've teleported too = advantage doesn't seem unrealistic, from either a balance or RP PoV, even if you move after teleporting. |
| (Reply to #78)Coredump00 |
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| #80ElfcrusherNov 07, 2014 21:35:50 | Yeah, I agree. 5-10' would be fine. Beyond that should be DM discretion. Maybe you should have to make a stealth roll, and only if nobody would be looking that way. |
| #81ElfcrusherNov 07, 2014 21:45:21 | Ok, next question:
Can anybody help me find a good miniature? I'm playing a human female, but 5' tall with 8 strength, so an elf would work. Two daggers, no armor. Prefer cloak with hood. |
| (Reply to #79)GTKA666 | What is bamfing?
Wouldn't the Shadow Monk, arguably be better use for the STR grapple monks? Like you can pop up behind the leader, grapple it, then have the party rush in (if not already) and just wail on the leader. Hell you could even grapple the leader and a lackey, severly crippling the enemies dmg output.
Another option would be that your rouge/shadow monk has Gaunts of OP. Pop up behind said leader and grapple him, then RP the rest of the enemies to back down or else their leader will die. All the while the bacline is poised ad ready to back up the threat. |
| (Reply to #82)1eejit |
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| #84ElfcrusherNov 08, 2014 6:17:33 |
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