I am working on a Skill Monkey build, and I thought it might be nice to gather thoughts on both this build, and any other Skill Monkey builds people come up with.
Here is what I have so far:
Half-Elven Bard (Lore) / Cleric (Knowledge)
Half-Elf: +2 Charisma, +1 to two other abilities, Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, 2 Skill Proficiencies (any), Common and Elven and +1 Language Proficiency (any).
Background: Urchin (Slight of Hand Proficiency, Stealth Proficiency, Thieves Tools proficiency, Disguise Kit proficiency).
Bard 1: Armor: Light Armor; Weapons: Simple Weapons, Hand Crossbow, Longsword, Rapier, Short Sword; Instruments: 3 (any); Saves: Dex and Chr; Skills: 3 (any); Bardic Inspiration (d6); 2 Bard Cantrips; 4 known Bard spells; Spell Slots (full).
Bard 2: Jack of All Trades, Song of Rest (d6), +1 Bard spells known, spell slots.
Bard 3: Bard College: Lore; Cutting Words; Skill Expertise: 2 (any); Skill Proficiency: 3 (any); +1 Bard spells known, spell slots.
Bard 4: Ability Score Improvement/Feat; +1 Bard Cantrip; +1 Bard spells known, spell slots.
Cleric 1 (Knowledge): Armor Proficiency: Medium Armor, Shields; Skill Proficiency: 2 (of Arcana, History, Nature, Religion); Skill Expertise: 2 (of Arcana, History, Nature, Religion); Cleric Cantrips: 3; Cleric Spells Prepared: 1+Wis Bonus + Command + Identify; Ritual Casting; 2 Languages (any); Spell slots.
Cleric 2: Channel Divinity (Turn Undead) Channel Divinity (Knowledge of the Ages); +1 Cleric spells prepared; Spell Slots.
Skills Analysis: There are a total of 18 skills in the game. By 4th or 5th level, this PC is proficient in 12 of them (2 Half-Elf, 2 Background, 3 Bard, 3 (Bard Lore College), 2 (Cleric Divine Domain Knowledge)), with expertise in four of them (2 any, and 2 from a list of 4 from Cleric (Knowledge). For the remaining 6 skills you're not proficient in, you still add half your proficiency bonus to them instead of the full proficiency bonus (Jack of All Trades), and you can also expend a Channel Divinity use to become proficient in that skill for 10 minutes, once between every short rest. He also has the Guidance cantrip, which adds 1d4 to any ability check. The Bard spell Enhance Ability can also be used to grant advantage on one type of ability check.
Tool Proficiencies: Thieves Tools (open locks, disarm traps); Disguise Kit (prof bonus to disguise checks); Instruments (3).
AC: Medium Armor and Shield (Breastplate 14 AC, +2 Dex, +2 AC from Shield = 18 AC); various spells, like Shield of Faith, can improve this.
Languages: Common, Elven, +3 more (any)
Spell Slots: Full caster
Advice Needed: I'd like advice on how to arrange the ability scores by Standard Array and alternatively using the buying ability points system. I have the AC above listed with a 14 dex, but that can change. I'd also like advice on skills, expertise choices, a feat and/or ability scores to increase at level 4. And, on spells choices, tactics, and where to go from here, and anything I screwed up.
Very Niice.
If you are really dedicated to learning all skills, a single level of Ranger or Rogue can get you another skill; and a big enough dip into Warlock can get you an invocation that grants a few more.
SpedGuy wrote:
A Bard with College of Lore will net you 3 more skills at level 3 also; so it is a clear winner on that regard. Of course a Rogue 1/Bard 3/Ranger 1/Cleric 2/Warlock 2 *is* a bit of an awkward build.
Totally had this idea for a deciple of Oghma!
Danny_Montanny wrote:
mellored wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
Nice build. I think I'm going to snag it for my next bard.
I think the following starting array might work nicely. Gives you at least +2 with most skills and saving throws to start and puts you in a good position to increase your primary, charisma, to 18 quickly.
STR:8
DEX:14
CON:11
INT:14 (13+ 1 half elf bump)
WIS:14 (13+ 1half elf bump)
CHA:16 (14 + 2 half elf bump)
reddaemon wrote:
flashedarling wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Two levels of Warlock gives you (via Beguiling Influence invocation) Deception and Persuasion.
Don't forget Knowledge Domain giving you any Tool you might need proficiency in temporarily, and Bard giving you 1/2 proficiency in all the other Tools in the world.
mellored wrote:
SpedGuy wrote:
There's no need to add the warlock, tho. All skills are covered with a helf-elf and 4 classes mellored has listed. I would go with rogue first, then 4 bard levels taking lore, the cleric level, 2 ranger levels, and the rest rogue with arcane trickster. That gets 10 level MC spell slots even if the majority of them are first and second levels, 4 expertise faster than a pure rogue and 6 expertise total, the bulk of the skills by level 4 and 5 with jack-of-all-trades in the meantime and later for ability checks not tied to skills, versatile trickster and magical ambush, 7d6 sneak attack plus a lot of rogue goodies, a fighting style and hunter's mark, and more. I would likely take TWF, human and elf for enemies, and grassland for terrain because those are associated with civilization more, imo.
Best of all, it's a skill build that adds all skills and keeps reliable talent, and adds enhance ability for advantage with those skill and ability checks. It compares well to a pure rogue, but still gives up big ticket items like thief's reflexes, death strike, higher level spells known and spell thief.
Ok, we see whats possible, but what is quickest and most ideal?
How about this?
Human Variant (4 skills with skilled feat)
Background (2 skills)
Rogue level 1 (4 skills + 2 expertise)
Bard level 3 (4 skills, jack of all trades, 2 expertise)
Bard level 4 ( 3 skills from skilled feat)
Is there another skill I'm missing or do you need to take a third class at 6th level for number 18?
A Bard, dedicated to Lore to such an extent that he starts to receive visions from a God(dess) of Knowledge due to his dedication. If you decide to add in Warlock, you can flavor it as an Infernal entity wants to basically "compete" with it's Divine counterpart (NG vs NE God/Devil). Is it strange I can actually see this in RP terms easily?
Mistwell wrote:
Daganev wrote:
spelley wrote:
Daganev wrote:
mellored wrote:
So it seems the fastest way is Half-Elf (2) Background (2) Rogue 1 (4, 2 expertise), Cleric 1 (2, 2 expertise), Bard 3 (4, 2 expertise), Ranger 1 (1), Skill Feat (3) = 18 at 6th level, with 6 of them having expertise, and a cantrip that grants an addition 1d4 to the check.
In the alternative, Half-Elf (2) Background (2), Bard 3 (6, 2 expertise), Cleric 1 (2, 2 expertise), Warlock 2 (2), Ranger 1 (1), Skill Feat (3) = 18 at 7th level, with all spell-casting classes., and a cantrip that grants an addition 1d4 to the check.
If I were to actually play either of these builds, I'd probably ditch the Ranger level (medicine, which seems to have little purpose in the game so far), then focus on Bard levels thereafter.
The Cleric expertise is in two of Arcana, Religion, History, or Nature. I'd probably take Arcana and History or Religion, given my theme of someone hunting for a lost Word of Creation. The other two, or four, expertises can be in anything. Following the theme, probably Investigation and Perception, and the if you get two more from Rogue it could be Rogue themed ones like Stealth and Deception or Persuasion, or two more themed ones like Religon and Insight.
Mistwell wrote:
Personally I'm houseruling Skilled and Martial Adept as flat out repeatable and Linguist as repeatable for the second bullet point.
All three of those feats make some manner of sense being able to take again.
Feel free to continue... ;)
CorwynnMaelstrom wrote:
So i guess the next question is what can you do with skills in this version of the game? What can you do with the power of skill proficiencies and expertise and spells that provide bonuses to skill checks?
Mistwell wrote:
mellored wrote:
Interestingly, the Jack of all Trades ability also grants half-proficiency bonus in Initiative checks. I wonder what other checks it does that for. Tools?
Also, I wonder how many expertise you could grab? We already have Rogue (1) two skills, Bard (3) two skills and Cleric (1)(Knowledge) two skills (limited list).
6th level rogue gets two more
10th level bard gets another two
A Ranger in their natural terrain gets expertise in Intelligence and Wisdom checks if using sa skill they are proficient in.
A Sorcerer with Draconic Ancestry gets expertise on Charisma checks when interacting with dragons.
Assassin gives you 2 tools.
Let's see...
Half-elf(2), Background(2), Assassin 6 (4 / 4), cleric 1 (2 / 2 and armor), Lorebard 10 (6 / 4), ranger 1 (1/1) / Dragon. Sorcerer 1 (1), feat (3) =
20 skills / 3 tools / 10-12 expertise = level 19.
You lose warlocks eldrich blast that way though. So i'd probably drop ranger, and not use the feat.
How can you get 12 expertise? I can only come up with 10.
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Noble background alt Knight ... gets the 2 Commoners, with the 1 Knight. Those commoners can Help Action on skill checks (though in-combat isn't really do-able). Advantage (!) on Skill Checks.
Alert feat could be used to ditch Perception, perhaps a Wis dump stat build.
mellored wrote:
BillyCorman wrote:
Thanks, Mellored.
It looks like "60 of one, 5 dozen the other" for standard array or point buy. With Medium armor giving a max +2 DEX bonus, it seems a bit of a waste to go higher than 14. Then it's a matter of meeting those minimums you just posted and maxing Charisma.
STR - 8 ... 8 / DEX - 14 ... 14 / CON - 13 (+1) ... 13 (+1) / INT - 10 ... 10 / WIS - 12 (+1) ... 12 (+1) / CHA - 15 (+2) ... 15 (+2)
mellored wrote:
HeirRaktus wrote:
mellored wrote:
HeirRaktus wrote:
I think 'expertise with dragons' and 'expertise with terrain' can be discounted as too vague to be counted on in a build idea. Preferably, I'd like to see a max number of expertise, along side the 11th level Rogue feature Reliable Talent. The effective 'Take 10' on any skill you are proficient in is a hard pass by, even at such a level cost. True Expertise comes in the forms of Bard 3rd and 10th, Cleric (Lore) at 1st and Rogue 1st and 6th. Considering the level dip required to get Reliable Talent, this idea wouldn't be able to take adventage of the Bardic second expertise.
Level 1: Half-Elf Charlatan Rogue
Skills: Sleight of Hand, Deception, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Stealth, Insight, Investigation
Tools: Disguise kit, Forgery kit, Thieves' tools
Expertise: Stealth, Deception
Level 2: Cleric of Knowledge
Skills: History, Religion
Expertise: History, Religion
Level 3: Bard
Skills: Performance
Tools: Musical Instrument
Level 4: Bard 2
Jack of All Trades for Half Proficency bonus as we level
Level 5: Bard 3 (College of Lore)
Skills: Nature, Survival, Medicine
Expertise: Perception, Medicine
Level 6: Bard 4 (FEAT: Skilled)
Skills: Athletics, Arcana, Acrobatics
Level 7: Ranger
Skills: Animal Handling
Level 10: Rogue 4 (FEAT: Linguist)
Why not add some languages to those skills?
Level 12: Rogue 6
Expertise: Insight, Animal Handling
Level 14: Rogue 8 (FEAT: Observant)
Passive +5 to Perception/Investigation
Level 17: Rogue 11 (Reliable Talent)
Never get less than a 10 on a skill check
At this point we are proficent in all 18 skills and gain double that bonus in in 8 of them, as well as terrain bonuses from the Ranger, on top of not being able to roll less than a 10 on a check. That means a minimum of a 16, 22 if in our expertise threshold. Not too shabby I think, with a little room to play Assassin games in with the Rogue. Not sure if I did what my initial text set forth, but I'd like to think the build is playable as an effective skill monkey and all around well traveled dude.
Rangers get a 2nd and 3rd terrain at 6th and 14th levels.
So 2 Ranger 14s have those Int and Wis skills covered.
edit --- 10th level for the 3rd terrain, 14th is for FE. And you technically need 3 Ranger 10s to cover the 8 terrains.
Leaving Dex and Cha to the Rogue+/Bard combos.
Dwarf and Tinkly (rock) Gnome, have a limited "expertise" thing.
RCanine wrote:
The downside is getting chances to use all of your skills. Or just having enough players in the party to do what you do, just better. For a skill monkey, I'd take expertise over lots of skills. That way, you can be better than anyone else in the party at whatever you choose no matter how many people there are in the party.
You can get up to six skills at expertise, right? Two each from cleric, bard, and rogue.
guachi wrote: