I'm interested in building a small paladin, either a halfling or a gnome. Some considerations:
- Small creatures can't use heavy weapons, so no Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master builds.
- They can use some two-handed weapons (and therefore Great Weapon Fighting style), but without GWM these builds are probably mediocre.
- The first two points lead to a Dex build, which means that Strength will be dumped and Shield Master won't be very strong.
- Small characters can ride medium-sized mounts (Giant Owl!), but Mounted Combatant's first ability only grants advantage against enemies that are smaller than your mount.
- Small characters can use lances while mounted, since lances aren't heavy. Awesome damage. But strength-based.
So, there seem like a few viable paths:
- Dex-based archer. Paladin abilities all work at range, but alas, Paladins don't get archery fighting style. Either halfling subrace is decent. Sharpshooter and dex/cha increases.
- Dex-based rapier + shield. Either halfling subrace is decent. Dex/cha increases, Resiliance (Con), possibly Defensive Duelist (at mid-level), and possibly Mounted Combatant depending on the campaign.
- Strength-based lance + shield, longsword when dismounted. Neither gnomes nor halflings are great, but Rock Gnome and Stout Halfling at least give you +1 Con. Depends on a DM that will let you use Mounted Combatant frequently. Resiliance (Con), str/cha increases. You'll start with 15 str/cha at best, so with 5 ASIs you can get to 18/18 str/cha, Mounted Combatant, and Resiliance(Con).
Thoughts?
+2 Dex doesn't mean you need to be a Dex based. You can still get 20 Str with a gnome or hafling. Longsword are not heavy. That said, there's no loss in using a rapier & shield.
You can't smite with a bow. They also like to be close to allies for the aura's. So.. yea they do lose somethings at range.
TWF paladins work well. Get an extra smite, and without the feat cost of polearms.
Halfling's lucky helps on offense as well as defense. While gnomes are just defensive.
Longsword doesn't work that well with great weapon master feat and the small races can't use polearms thats why people think you have to go dex based. Shield master is also a good feat but requires strength.
Paladins don't really need to-hit as much as other classes. Since smite isn't wasted, they can easily go full defense.
IMO:
Str: 15+1
Dex: 12+2
Con: 14+1+1
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 14
with
inspiring leader,
heavy armor expertise,
shield master,
resilence (con),
And a 1 level dip into rogue for athletics expertsie.
Okay - first, before you start talking about Giant Owls, make sure your DM will let you summon one & then make sure you never let it get hurt while you are flying because if it hits 0 HP, it will disappear and you will be in for a rough landing. Unlike a ranger's animal companion (which can be any medium beast of 1/4 CR), it will still have low HP at later levels. Summoning a mount is not limited to beasts of 1/4 CR (Warhorse in the listed examples is 1/2) but it is limited by "DM Discretion"
If you want to make a small paladin (and they are awesome) then talk to the DM about Wolves and Mastiffs. Mastiff is the example in the spell, so you know that will be allowed - everything else is DM Choice. A wolf is a great medium mount... most of the better mounts are Large or probably going to be declined by your DM and you are stuck being large in a medium world. Here are the two tricks I suggest:
(dire) wolf - has advantage on it's attack while you are mounted via pack tactics. if it hits, *any size creature* has a chance of falling prone... it's a slim chance, but it's a chance. If it falls, then use one of your 2 attacks to grapple ("drop speed to 0") and it can't get up without escaping your grapple first, which takes an action. If you have feats to spare, you could even grab "Tavern Brawler" to punch it and initiate a grapple as a bonus action... but you won't have feats to spare.
Warhorse - take Str based shield master. before the warhorse's turn, make sure you knock down your opponent... your horse gets an extra attack if you do (trampling charge). Note that a warhorse is large, but there's no reason you can't ride it... except if you are in a 5-foot hallway, I guess.
mellored wrote:
Not so much builds for a "Dex Based Paladin" since the dex combos mostly rely upon Stealth (which you might have, but your mount doesn't) or ranged weapons (Smite spells don't work with them) or they aren't "combos" so much as "Things you can do with finesse weapons"
However, there are a number of very, very cool things to be done with a Small Paladin who multi-classes. Paladins have an INCREDIBLE level 5 & 6. 2 out of 3 Paladin Paths have an awesome Level 7. Paladins have the same Level 8 as everyone else, and Level 9 gets you your last really spectacular spells
10 - warmed over. Everyone in that range already has your cha bonus to the same against "frightened", adding immunity to frightened is reduntant.
11 - Not useful unless you are in melee
12 - same as everyone else.
13 - 4th level spells... maybe when you get some better ones, that will be good.
14 - something worth getting.
So - Level 9 Paladin is pretty much as far as I want to go (unless I'm a Str Based melee fighter)
So what else can be sprinkled into the mix? Well, Cha-based casters are plentiful and any spell you cast that targets only you also targets your steed... like Divine Favor & Haste & Shield...
I'm a fan of grabbing some Wild Sorcerer Tides of Chaos and Wild Magic Surge to go with a few metamagic options, but that's just because around that level, things need to get shaken up a bit and you will all probably survive a fireball if you roll badly.
Lots of Paladins make pacts with powerful creatures whose goals line up with their oath... Paladin-Warlock... So, rather than pumping up Str or Dex, just pump Cha.
Level 1-6, Paldadin - use bow and arrows with Divine Favor
Level 7-8, Warlock 1-3 - Use Eldrich Blast or bow and arrows with divine favor until you get Warlock 3 and pick up Shileleigh (sp?) cantrip.
Now put on heavy armor, grab a shield, get on the mount, pick up Mounted Combat (at either Warlock 4 or Paladin 8) and start getting into melee and building towards Paladin 11. It takes a while to develop, but at Level 9 (that's P6/W3) you will be a very mobile, tough tank with a powerful ranged eldrich blast to back it up and access to the best ritual casting there is. You aren't bad before that point, either.
Now, please don't do anything just because I suggest it. This is 5th edition, not 3rd... You won't "do it wrong". Make a dex based paladin and see what works for you. Divine Favor rocks for ranged attackers. Heroism is rediculous for melee fighters. If there is no cleric nearby, cast bless. Beyond that, make it up as you go and you should be fine.
no reason you can't have a dex paladin. heavy armor only adds +1AC. otherwise it's the same 1d8 + shield.
and in exchange you get boosted initive and better saves. (though str saves are still somewhat common)
not the worst trade.
SterlingRat wrote:
intently wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
Shillelegh is also 1d8 + shield. Only downside is that it takes a bonus action at the start of combat, and you need to get the cantrip somehow. The upside is that you can use a quarter staff with polearm master.
Though if you like a halfing on a wolf with a lance, go for it. It will work out fine.
If you DM is willing to consider your mount an ally, then paladin plus rogue works pretty good. Sneak attack (the mount is the adjacent ally) plus smite should make up for any loss in damage from using a dex weapon, even if it is only for one attack.
QwertyAzerty wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
Ok, I could go Strength (lance!) and not sweat Charisma too much. What awesome Paladin spells depend on Charisma anyway?
Stout Halfling Paladin/WarlockStr: 15
Dex: 12+2(racial) = 14
Con: 14+1(racial) = 15
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 14
Levels:
1-6: Paladin 1-6
7-9: Warlock 1-3
10-20: Paladin 7-17
ASIs:
CL 4 / Paladin 4: Heavy Armor Master
CL 11 / Paladin 8: Mounted Combatant
CL 15 / Paladin 12: Resiliance (Con)
CL 19 / Paladin 16: +2 Strength
Fighting Style: Dueling
Oath: Ancients
Pact: Chain, for invisible Helper
Patron: Archfey
Invocations: Repelling Blast and Devil's Sight
Lance/Longsword + Shield; Eldritch Blast for range
Heavy Armor
Medium Mount via Find Steed
intently wrote:
Wow... yeah, no changing the weapon in the middle of a fight then.
intently wrote:
intently wrote:
Also remember that you can move AFTER you attack.
So run in, hit, and run out.
mellored wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
intently wrote:
Multiclassing with Ranger-Beastmaster gives you a mount that adds your proficiency bonus to its own. Ride a wolf, which is proficient with stealth, and you and your mount can stealth around with the Rogue. :-)
intently wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
You don't need TWF style to TWF.
You just don't get the mod to damage.
intently wrote:
Dex-based mounted halfling Paladin.
Stout Halfling Paladin/Warlock Str: 8 Dex: 15+2(racial) = 17 Con: 14+1(racial) = 15 Int: 8 Wis: 10 Cha: 15 Levels: Paladin 8/12, Warlock 3, rest Paladin ASIs: Mounted Combatant, +1 Dex&Cha, Resiliance (Con), +2 Dex/Cha Fighting Style: Dueling Oath: Ancients Pact: Chain, for invisible Helper Patron: Archfey Invocations: Repelling Blast and Devil's Sight Rapier + Shield; Shortbow then Eldritch Blast for range Medium Armor Medium Mount via Find Steed
SterlingRat wrote:
intently wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
You can always take the mobility feat to get +10, effectivly negating the speed penalty of heavy armor with some additional benifits.
Of course, it's a bit of a waste if your riding a mount most of the time.
Crap... I just realized that you can't dump Str and still take Warlock levels. As a paladin you are required to have Str 13 to multiclass, and if you are going to have a 13, you might as well focus on Str or Cha over Dex.
SterlingRat wrote:
intently wrote:
Why not take 2-3 levels of Monk? Martial Arts would let you wield a spear or quarterstaff two-handed while using Dex to attack. You get a reliable bonus-action extra attack for 1d4+Dex damage (the same you'd get for Polearm Master without requiring a feat). 2 levels gets you Ki points that you can use for Flurry. 3 levels gets you Deflect Missiles, another Ki point, and the ability to knock down, knock back, or stop reactions of the target of your flurry. The Unarmored stuff is wasted, but whatever.
Once you go into Paladin, you could grab GWF to help your quarterstaff/spear damage. Alternately, you can make an argument that going unarmed is valid for Duelist, netting you the bonus damage on all your attacks. You can smite on your unarmed attacks as well as your weapon attacks, which you'll be throwing out a lot of.
If you go Oath of Devotion, you could possibly make the argument that your fists are valid targets for Sacred Weapon. Once you get Extra Attack, that's a possible 4 attacks in a round benefitting from +Charisma to hit, and you can smite off them. Oath of Vengeance gets Hunter's Mark, for an extra 1d6 damage.
If you pick up Stealth as a class skill, you could even make use off your racial hiding ability to be a pain in the ass.
Also, the mental image of a halfling with a stick and/or bare knuckled running around smiting people in the knees/groin with the fury of the gods is pretty badass.
dbsquirl wrote:
Knight_Marshal wrote:
intently wrote: