Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Avross Mar 20, 2015 9:29:32	So I've been reading the two sorcerer guides, and when thinking about a Dragon Sorcerer, I wanted to do something *other* than a fire sorcerer.   Since some of the benefits do derive from the type of dragon (and the damage type associated with it), it made sense to look at the breakdown of spells.   Keep in mind that this entire conversation is based on getting a fairly minor bump to spell damage and some resistance to a specific types of damage.  It's not the only feature, but a lot of players may not want to make a choice which makes a feature less than useful.  So I'm not color coding anything, since it's only ONE out of several features.   Both of the existing guides agree more or less.   Sorcerer Guide wrote:
#2 Undrhil Mar 20, 2015 9:36:38	You did not include Chromatic Orb in the initial table, it appears.  Burning Hands would be the 1 fire spell and Chromatic Orb, being able to deal fire damage, should be listed in there as a second fire spell.   Also, what second Sorcerer cantrip deals cold damage from the PHB?  Chill Touch deals necrotic damage.  Ray of Frost deals cold damage.  Is there another one?
#3 Avross Mar 20, 2015 12:03:49	Chromatic Orb is the 1st level "varies" spell since it can be any of those. I think I fat-fingered the chart...you are correct, there should only be one cold damage cantrip.  Thanks.   fixing that now...
#4 QwertyAzerty Mar 20, 2015 12:25:11	you forgot storm sphere from elemental Evil whichi deal AoE bludgeoning damage, then you can use your bonus action to cause targeted lightinng damage, but it doesn't change must from your analysis.   But I don't understand what you are trying to do with this tread? You want to find a viable build using cold spell?   Cold spell can be used and could be decent, but you won't do as good as the fire sorcerer but you already came to that conclusion.
#5 Avross Mar 20, 2015 13:32:13	It's just notes from a conversation we had that I thought some people might find useful.   Started with us lamenting that *all* dragon sorcerers are fire sorcerers, and wondeirng if Elemental Evil closed the gap at all.   We figured others might have the same thoughts, and that we'd save them some effort.
#6 Matau99 Mar 20, 2015 15:44:44	If you're going non-fire... What you get: increased ability to bypass resistance What you lose: your own resistance; also, you have fewer spells to use
#7 jaappleton Mar 20, 2015 16:12:46	I'm sorry, but I find the fact that there are nearly three times as many Fire spells as Lightning to be ridiculous. This should be unacceptable. They just released new spells and had the opportunity to give it more balance. Instead, they dropped the ball.
(Reply to #7) RubenRybnikk	jaappleton wrote:
(Reply to #7) AaronOfBarbaria	jaappleton wrote:
(Reply to #9) fullm3talOptimus	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#11 Delazar78 Mar 22, 2015 1:23:57	I just fluff existing spells to inflict a different type of energy damage.   want a frostball instead of a fireball? Sure, go ahead.
#12 Matau99 Mar 22, 2015 4:25:25	Delazar78 wrote:
(Reply to #10) AaronOfBarbaria	fullm3talOptimus wrote:
#14 jaappleton Mar 23, 2015 3:53:08	If I wanted an Acid Dragon Sorcerer, its not only not optimal, but a flat out piss poor choice. Its not viable. You're right in that Fire is absolutely optimal. You could get by with a Cold or Lightning type, you'd be alright with that. But having a choice in your offensive spells would be nice. Having multiple options per level. Lower damage but larger AoE, or a more focused attack? Options. I just wish the other types got as many options as Fire.
(Reply to #14) AaronOfBarbaria	jaappleton wrote:
#16 QwertyAzerty Mar 23, 2015 5:00:59	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#17 jaappleton Mar 23, 2015 5:58:00	Exactly, Qwerty.
#18 Coredump00 Mar 23, 2015 6:45:39	I *like* the fact that there are more fire spells than cold spells,and more cold than acid, etc.   I think it would be a very bland and predictable world if for every Fireball spell there was a Frostball and Acidball and Lightningball and Poisonball.... all with the same stats and damage etc.  That seems much less like an organic world, and more like bland design.   Do we also need 5 different types of Hellhounds? Chimera? etc?  Does the world have to be one where every 'damage type' is equal?  Why?  I *like* a world where magic fire is more prevelant than magic poison, it fits tha majority of fantasy stories, and it seems like a more believable world than one where everything is on equal footing.  Same reason there are more creatures that can produce fire, which means it makes sense there are more creatures that can resist fire.     On top of that.... as long as you have your Cantrip, that damage type is perfectly viable.  While Fire has a noteworthy advantage, the other 4 are relatively the same, and none make for a less viable sorceror.   When casting an 8d6 fireball, do you really think it matters that one guy is adding another 4hp to that amount?
#19 jaappleton Mar 23, 2015 7:27:02	OK, there's likely going to be one type that has more options than the other. But does Fire need to have THAT many spells while the others suffers so much?
#20 Mechatarrasque Mar 23, 2015 7:56:10	D&D (and Pathfinder) tend to have more fire spells than any other kind of damage spells.  The disparity might shrink over the life of the edition, but I suspect 10 years from now (assuming 5e lasts that long), fire will still be head and shoulders above its nearest competitor.     I am not sure why an elemental themed AP should have a bunch of acid or poison spells.  Wait for an underdark, swamp, or Abyss- based AP, and then see how the spell list is doing after that.
#21 QwertyAzerty Mar 23, 2015 8:05:43	Coredump00 wrote:
#22 fullm3talOptimus Mar 23, 2015 10:27:59	What about the fact that poison, acid, and cold damage type spells also tend to (but not always) have other effects, compared to fire which is pretty much straight damage.   Acid Spray - lower damage but you can target 2 creatures Ray of Frost - average damage but you slow their movement by 10 feet Ray of Sicknes - damage plus the poisoned status (disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks) Sleet Storm - no damage, but, heavily obscures area, douses flames, makes area difficult terrain and spell casters must make concentration saves Stinking Cloud - no damage, but potentially causes anyone in the area to spend their action vomiting Ice Storm - some damage and turns area until difficult terrain   Those are some pretty cool effects to be able to use, and it would be awesome if we saw some more things like that, instead of a WHOLE lot of fire being thrown around. That said, who doesnt have a little pyromaniac in them.
(Reply to #21) Coredump00	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#24 Jamwes Mar 24, 2015 7:45:41	I agree with the ones who wish that every type has a spell at every level. That way every player knows that there are favored spells at every level and don't feel like they are missing out on stuff. However, I can totally see the reasoning as to why this isn't the case, and begrudging agree with it. If fire is more common then this is the game designers proving it's more common. It's a feature, not a bug. That being said, I do wish that every type had at least one spell at the important levels for the power curve. I'm not a spell power expert, but my gut would be to have a favored cantrip and spell levels 1 and 3.
#25 QwertyAzerty Mar 24, 2015 12:32:03	Coredump00 wrote:
#26 Greenstone.Walker Mar 25, 2015 15:22:44	Avross wrote:
#27 jaappleton Mar 25, 2015 16:04:42	I've a question for everyone.    I know it's not a solution for people that do Adventurer's League. But for home games, how viable is this:     Allowing Lightning Dragon Sorcerers to also apply their damage type benefit to Thunder.    It doesn't solve anything for Cold, Acid or Poison, but wouldn't it bring Lightning much closer in viability and spell selection to Fire?
#28 QwertyAzerty Mar 26, 2015 6:51:05	jaappleton wrote:
#29 jaappleton Mar 26, 2015 6:56:27	I never looked hard at the list of Thunder Sorc spells, and I looked even less at what Elemental Evil adds to that list. But even taking Scorching Ray aside, at least it adds more options. And Lightning/Thunder often have an effect with the damage, such as knocking an enemy back. So at least there's some control to go along with it.
#30 Matau99 Mar 27, 2015 7:02:30	Incidentally, if your DM accepts third-party stuff, you could check out the Book of Lost Spells. It's got lots of new spells with varying damage types.
(Reply to #27) Mechatarrasque	jaappleton wrote:
#32 QwertyAzerty Mar 27, 2015 10:22:40	Mechatarrasque wrote:
(Reply to #32) Coredump00	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#34 Mechatarrasque Mar 27, 2015 15:07:25	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#35 Istbor Mar 27, 2015 15:23:33	It is not just D&D that thinks Fire magic - MOAR DMG!   A lot of other systems, lore and games attribute higher damage output to fire, while the other energy types may or may not have other aspects attributed to them.   Just calling from the popular views of what magic source does what:   Fire usually means additional damage (sometimes DoT) Cold usually gains a slowing effect or other type of debuff Lighting is almost always assigned a stunning or shocking effect Acid and poison, usually get lumped together for some form of Dot (poison however can also cause impairment of some form) (air magic if ever used usually imparts movement or speed) (water if used can do impairment or healing) (Earth is usually also for movement hinderance and defense)   This is across a large swath of fantasy worlds and tropes. I am not saying it is right, but it has almost become like a shared concensus of sorts that this is what magic does.   Now, did D&D way back when start this trend of thinking? Or are they just stuck in the same mind space where this is what these magic energies just DO? I don't know.  I am probably not contributing much to the discussion but I find the occurance interesting.   My opinion on this matter though is that there could be less fire spells and a smattering more of other types, but I do not think it majorly impacts the usefulness of a sorceror who does not pick fire as their affinity.
(Reply to #31) Mechatarrasque	Mechatarrasque wrote:
#37 Thoughts_My_Aim Mar 29, 2015 9:27:39	Istbor wrote:
#38 QwertyAzerty Mar 30, 2015 5:36:59	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #38) Macv12	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#40 Horwath Mar 30, 2015 8:13:57	How about:   Metamagic, new option.   Elemental mastery; for 1 sorcery point you can change elemental type of damage while casting the spell. If the elemental type chosen is the same as your draconic type, this option costs 0 sorcery points.
(Reply to #40) Macv12	Horwath wrote: