Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wills2009 Sep 04, 2014 15:00:59	I'd like to discuss the age old sorcerer vs wizard debate that always seems to pop up in every edition. This was more of a debate of course is 3/3.5/pathfinder than in 4e, but now in 5e we are back in the situation where the two classes share a spell list (mostly) and are conisdered the same "type" of arcane caster (I mean generally, as opposed to the bard and warlock who have very different flavor and spell lists). I will mostly compare to the 3rd edition wizard/sorcerer as 4th really made them a lot different from each other.   In 3rd edition most of the arguments revolved around preparation vs spontaneous casting, but now that 5e is out, that is a moot point as all casters are "spontaneous" in the 3rd edition sense. This drastically changes the whole discussion of wizards vs sorcerers.   I'll focus on 3 main areas:  spells known (prepared), spell slots, and class abilities.   Spells Known (and/or prepared in the case of 5e):   The difference is much more pronounced in 5e. Back in 3rd I could always manage to build a sorcerer who had a few spells of each level. You couldn't have everything, but at least you could get a couple options and most of the "best" or "core" spells you wanted. This was especially true in pathfinder where the sorcerer had bloodline spells and other ways to get extra spells known.   Now the sorcerer only gets 2 spells of each level and 1 of each level for 6th and up (unless you swap out spells). I'm finding this much more limiting and it's very difficult to try and build a sorcerer that can do most of what a wizard can.     If we compare the sorcerer spells known vs wizard spells prepared (basically the same thing now), we see that it starts with 4 for the wizard (assume 16 int) and 2 for the sorcerer. By level 10 it's 14-11 for the wizard (assume 20 int) and by level 20 its 25-15.   Clearly the wizard has a distinct advantage here (as he should). Not only can he have more spells prepared/known at a given time, but he can change them every day as well. I'm not sure this is really a fair ratio though. I know the wizard is always supposed to have more spell options, but the idea was always that he had to think and prepare them ahead of time. Now he has so many preparation slots available that he can usually pick everything he wants and then some.    Simply put, I don't feel the wizard has to make difficult choices on what to prepare now, he simply has way more available to him than the sorcerer all the time, and that's not a fair balance between the two classes.   Spell slots:   Now that everyone has the same slot progression a major point that used to be in favor of the sorcerer is now evened out. In the past this was always the trade-off the sorcerer made, less spells known but a solid 50% more slots available (usually sorc had 6 and wiz had 4).    Both classes have means of regaining slots. The wizard can regain a total of 10 spell levels (max 6th) once per day, while the sorcerer can use his sorcery points to create slots (max 5th) as well as shift slots around. For comparison sake a level 20 sorcerer couls spend his 20 points for two 5th and one 4th level slot. The sorcerer does have a slight edge here especially considering he can also burn un-needed slots for more points to do either metamagic or create the slots he needs.   I suppose sorcerer has a slight advantage on slot count due to metamagic (twin) and sorcery points but it isn't very much, especially at high level when a wizard gets signature spell and spell mastery.   Class abilities:   The wizard has his usual 8 specialty schools, some of which are quite good (evocation is much better for blasting than the sorc abilities for various reasons) while the sorc gets the totally predictable dragon and wild magic sub class.    I wont go too much into comparing all 10 of these options. Most of them have decent abilites and I dont feel any particular ones are largely over or under powered.    The only thing I will say is that to make a "blaster mage" Evocation is much better and more versatile than the sorcerer options.   Metamagic:   This to me has to be the thing that lets sorcerers make up for their deficiencies vs the wizard, and I'm not convinced it does.    Careful spell is outright inferior to the wizards sculpt spell (which he gets to use any time). Distant, subtle and extended are highly situational.    Quickened, empowered and twinned seem to be the best uses of metamagic. Quickened really just lets you cast an extra cantrip or pull off some action economy stuff. Empowered can be nice but I saw somebody calculate the average damage boost and it seemed quite low.  Twinned sort of increases your slot economy, and is a bit cheaper than actually creating a slot (5 points to twin a level 5 slot vs 7 to create a slot).  There are plenty of debuff spells that give you more targets at higher slot levels. Sure disintegrate twinned is nice, but that costs a lot of points too.   Somebody feel free to do some math and show how good/bad metamagic really is     Conclusion:   I feel like more could have been done to differentiate these two classes and their roles. I didnt like everything 4th edition did but it at least made them distinct from each other and play very differently.   I've seen some people say that the sorcerer is much better than the wizard for making a specifically themed caster (blaster, charmer, etc) but I'm not convinced that's true. His limited spell selection simply forces him to only be good at one thing.   The wizard (and other classes) switching to the same sort of "spontaneous" system that used to be the primary appeal of playing a sorcerer represents a huge reduction in power/appeal for the sorcerer. I dont feel like enough tools have been given to the sorcerer to make up for this massive shift.
#2 spanglemaker Sep 04, 2014 16:43:42	I personally quite like both the Sorcerer and the Wizard, they are not meant to be the same thing. I would rather have a few more sorcerous origins though.   The wizard has versatility and speciality and is the iconic magic user.   The sorcerer has an extra cantrip, which in all old D&D would have been considered trivial, but now cantrips can hurt. (slight diversion- Warlock and Eldritch Blast or Bard and Vicious Mockery), but their origin is important to them and meta magic. The levelling hot swapping of spells- gain 1 and/ or replace one is essential for the sorcerer, requires a wholly different mindset because a sorcerers resources are much more limited.   In this Brave New World of 5th Edition, Level 5 Spells are King, spell levels 6-9 are still powerful but are pretty much Daily Powers (6-7 as twice daily for Wizards and Sorcerers).   The Wizard is an arcane Logistician with a fantastic supply chain, whereas the Sorcerer is a Marine or Special Forces operative, able to do what needs to be done...somehow.   You could probably simulate Merlin of Avalon or Gandalf as a Sorcerer pretty quickly or take an age to stat up as a Wizard. So in other ways, the Wizard is all preppy whereas the Sorcerer is the grungy cool kid, most likely from the wrong side of the tracks. Yet you could easily create a great unwashed Wizard or a Super Preppy Sorcerer, who might even be a Sage. I love the choice.   When I first got my grubby hands on my shiny PHB, I was awestruck and fell in love with the Warlock and the Wizard. I was not so enamoured with the Sorcerer, which did feel a little less shiny. But then I realised that I wanted to play a Storm Sorcerer or a Sorcerer with a Fiend or a Fey Ancestor. So maybe that coloured my view.   Harry Hill would simply get the Sorcerer and Wizard to FIGHT, and in our (D&D) terms whoever's die (the plural is dice, which is also singular in modern parlance) was in favour would decide the winner.
#3 Yunru Sep 04, 2014 16:14:37	Sorcerer can also Multiclass easy, and imo, Sorcerer 15/Warlock 5 is damn deadly.   spanglemaker wrote:
#4 7he_professor Sep 04, 2014 16:42:13	My only mechanical issue with the Sor vs. Wiz is the current lack of Origin options.  Wizards get 8 schools to pick from, Sorcerers get two origins.  That's bogus.  However, I guarantee there will be more options made available in later publications, so it's only a minor issue for now.   I don't see any other statistically superior options for the Wizard over the Sorcerer at this point, but I've only read through the classes once.   One thing I would like to say, is this iteration of the Wizard screams iconic and that makes me warm and fuzzy inside (I'm so flippin' happy they kept the Ritual option in there, and familiars being summoned by a spell is just awesome).     Either way...just my 2 cp
#5 wills2009 Sep 04, 2014 16:52:45	Yes the wizard is quite iconic and I'm glad they moved away from the old vancian style of specific slot preparation and embraced spontaneous casting for everybody, makes a lot more sense. It's why I always picked sorcerer in the past. But now I just feel like sorcerer is like this legacy class that isnt necessary anymore....     My point is mainly that a sorcerer seems to be a wizard with a narrowed down spell list, fewer spells known and the same # of slots. The metamagic really needs to be "the thing" that if anything differentiates sorcerers. Is it really good enough to make up for the spell limitations? I'm not sure, that's why I'm asking.     So optimally is it better for the sorcerer to switch out spells known on level up, and try to have more level 3-5 spells known, and use points to convert excess higher or lower slots into more level 3-5 slots? Is their power mostly from being able to cast more level 3-5 spells and apply metamagic to them?
#6 Psikerlord Sep 04, 2014 17:00:39	wills2009 wrote:
#7 Overmind69 Sep 04, 2014 17:30:40	I was thinking the Sorceror might be the better blaster, especially because of quicken spell.  Although the Wizards overchannel ability looks pretty sweet,  I'm torn between which to make, and I honestly thought Sorceror might be better, but this is making me have doubts.  Half-Elf Sorceror looked so good.
#8 Yunru Sep 04, 2014 17:32:17	Sorcerer fires more, quicker. Quicken Spell on the non-cantrip followed up by a cantrip doubles the amount of spells cast per turn.
#9 wills2009 Sep 04, 2014 17:37:50	Overmind69 wrote:
(Reply to #9) Overmind69	wills2009 wrote:
#11 Kalani Sep 04, 2014 18:00:09	Wizards do not have any class abilities that grant them "bonus action" spells. IIRC there are a small handful of speeds that can be cast as a bonus action, although IIRC none of these are damage-dealing spells. When casting a bonus action spell, the Wizard cannot cast another spell during the same turn under normal circumstances.   The Warcaster feat allows any spellcaster to cast a spell instead of making an opportunity attack (this does not count as making an opportunity attack however, and as such will not stack with the Sentinel feat or similar rules). Multiclass Wizards and Sorcerers can both use Action surge however, while an Eldritch Knight can cast a cantrip (or spell) and make a bonus action attack. None of these are exactly what you were looking for however.
#12 wills2009 Sep 04, 2014 18:34:48	Kalani wrote:
#13 Overmind69 Sep 04, 2014 18:43:11	I think it all comes down to if Quicken and twinned are powerful enough.  Extra actions are precious, and why quicken spell was amazing in 3.5.  Im confident that if it could be 2 ACTUAL spells and not just 1 spell+1 cantrip, Sorc would win just based on that.  But it's not...so is that extra cantrip casting worth it?  Cantrips are pretty good...
#14 2Chlorobutanal Sep 04, 2014 23:13:56	I've mentioned this in a couple other sorcerer threads, but:   Quicken sunbeam, deal 6d8 damage and blindness in a 60' line as a bonus action. Take sunbeam's action.  Deal 6d8 damage and blindness in a 60' line as an action.   After that round, you can continue Quickening other (level 1+) spells and firing off sunbeam actions as long as you have the SP.   Alternatively, you can do something similar with telekinesis for a more control-oriented approach.
#15 Psikerlord Sep 05, 2014 0:25:24	Overmind69 wrote:
#16 Psikerlord Sep 05, 2014 0:28:49	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
(Reply to #16) 2Chlorobutanal	Psikerlord wrote:
#18 Yunru Sep 05, 2014 1:12:03	Let's see... Come level 6 you can cast Fireball and Fire Bolt on the same turn to kill things quickly. You also get you Cha mod to both if you're a fire dragon bloodline. You avoid hitting your allies by having sensible allies that know you're an AoE caster and thus *stay to one side or the other of monsters*. Next round, you cast Fireball and Fire Bolt. If it's not dead after that, there's a problem.
#19 ppaladin123 Sep 05, 2014 4:56:35	2 levels of warlock means you can quicken a fireball or whatever and then fire off eldritch blast...which is potent.
#20 Sorxores Sep 05, 2014 4:59:01	wills2009 wrote:
#21 wills2009 Sep 05, 2014 7:44:15	Yunru wrote:
#22 wills2009 Sep 05, 2014 7:49:49	Sorxores wrote:
#23 Mechatarrasque Sep 05, 2014 8:30:01	I think sorcerer exists to multiclass with (and to be the place where they put the "weird" mages into).  Compared to paladins and warlocks, sorcerers get a lot of spells (or at least a lot of cantrips), and since they are all charisma casters you don't have to be MAD to use them.  Plus, it is barely any work to refluff the dragon bloodline into a devil bloodline (does stuff with fire and fear and has bat-like wings), so it would be a nice fit for infernal warlocks.  A few more bloodlines would help (something tentacle-y for the G.O.O. pact warlock, angel bloodline [ possibly even archon or guardinel] for the paladin, and eldarin for the fey pact).   I don't see the bard getting as much from the dragon bloodline, but chaos sorcerer is another matter.  Bards like weird stuff, since it makes good stories, and now your inspiration can always be with you.
#24 wills2009 Sep 05, 2014 9:09:03	Mechagamera wrote:
#25 Kentus Sep 05, 2014 9:38:13	For first: This is the first edition I really like the Sorcerer.   wills2009 wrote:
#26 Sorxores Sep 05, 2014 9:53:58	at the moment, the only "niche" I got the sorcerer is for BURST DPR   in a single round you can cast a twinned high level spell, empowered it, quicken a cantrip and empowered it as well. if you choose the right spell, you can have the BIGGEST BURST possible in the game   Greater invisibility cast scorhcing ray lvl 9 (10 rays) with advantage. Each ray does 2d6+5 and have 10% chance to crit (5% with advantage become 10%) for a total of 20d6+50. the 10% chance of crit on 10 rays means on average 1 ray should crit, so on average you should do 22d6+50 damage. put all the ray on a single target so you only have a single target spell, so you can twin it and double the damage you do. for a total of 2 target receiving 22d6+50 with elemental adept (fire) the d6 do in average 3.666 damage instead of 3.5. So 22d6+50 do on average 130 damage. Empowered it to reroll your 5 lowest dice increasing that damage a little bit more. Twin it so you got 2 target receiving 130 damage. then cast firebolt for and exra 4d10+5 and reroll all 4 dice if you want.   If your Dm do not interprete the rule the same way for applying Cha and twin schorching ray, then use the most powerful option where you simply cast heighten meteor swarm for IIRC 140 average damage to everyhing within 60ft radius with disavantage empowered it if need be, then quicken firebolt.   After this burst the sorcerer will need a long rest lol, wizard from 3e was a 5MWD, the sorcerer 5e is a 1MWD lol.   I might suggest 2 warlock level, to cast eldritch blast instead of firebolt for 4 beams doing 1d10+5 each instead of a single bolt for 4d10+5
#27 Kentus Sep 05, 2014 9:53:45	wills2009 wrote:
#28 wills2009 Sep 05, 2014 11:03:21	Kentus wrote:
#29 Kentus Sep 05, 2014 12:05:15	wills2009 wrote:
#30 wills2009 Sep 05, 2014 12:22:47	Yes unseen enchantments and subtle spell for non damage spells is nice. I'll grant those are a couple of things the sorcerer could do that others cant. Confusion is a good example and a spell I like as well. Most other non damage spells tend to be targeted (holds and dominates for example) though so I'd have to look at some other examples where this combo is handy.     I was simply trying to make the point that RP stuff can be mostly made up by the players and DM, it doesnt have to be part of the class write up. Yes sorcerer has it build in but other classes could emulate it or re-write their fliff to accomplish the same things.   This is why I'm approaching this mostly from a mechanics standpoint. It's not to trash RP stuff. I think its important that all classes be balanced mechanically so that anybody who wants to RP a certain way can do it without being at a disadvantage. I think this is espectially important for the wizard and sorcerer. They are both THE low hp, arcane caster with no armor and nearly the same spell list. That's why i think they should both be good in their own way and why I started this thread.    I started this thread on the premise that wizards are more viable mechanically, and I am open to anybody convincing me otherwise. I want the sorcerer to be good, I really do.   And it's not good enough for the class to simply be harder to use. Difficult to master is fine, but only if your effort is rewarded.
#31 EntropyAvatar Sep 05, 2014 13:19:55	One small note is that the Sorcerer has an easier time passing concentration checks, since they have Con save proficiency. I still think they could do with more metamagic options and a larger list of spells known.
#32 Kentus Sep 05, 2014 14:29:13	If we speak about the advantages being a sorcerer to a wizard, there are the following:   1.) More flexible with spell-slots, since bonus action vs. 1-hour short rest and the ability to use useless spell slots to get more SPs. And a rule-hole which allows you to create unlimited spell-slots, since someone forget to include a duration there. ;)   2.) Proficiency in con-saves (not necessarly better than wis, but it helps with maintaining concentration).   3.) Metamagics.   3.1.) General uses: Spell-Slinging: Quickened and Twinned Spells allows you to dish out many more spells than any other class, even though it'll burn you out fast. But since you might have the real improtant encounter, you'd better do it and burn those SP.   Surprise: Subtle and Distant spells allows you to make better ambushes and especially Subtle Spell is like the perfect opportunity to catch someone off-guard, while talking to said person + peers.   3.2.) Specific uses: Careful Spells: Every spell which isn't evocation, but still an Area-Spell which doesn't distinguish between friends and foes. Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Confusion, Insect Plague (half damage), Circle of Death (half damage), Reversed Gravity, Earthquake (no wizard spell), Incindiary Cloud (half damage and see below)   These might work, since there is nothing that says in Careful Spell, that the save have to be when casting that spell and might even work for multiple rounds, since nothing suggest that only the first saving throw is automatically saved. Work this out with your DM until an official statement is made. Web, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill   And it can negate or soften negative results of Wild Magic.   Distant Spells: Every spell which would work with Spell Sniper, too, even though having both is much better (especially since it makes touch spells less dangerous).   Empowered Spells: Every damage spell, even while using another metamagic. Even if there is overchannel, this is a cheaper way and you only need to use it when actually rolling bad, which manages the resource (the spell) better (since low-damage can make a spell much less effective).   Extended Spell: Most buffs, which might come in handy, when thinking you now that the combat will be long or instead   Heightened Spell: Every spell which doesn't have any effect on a successful save, but is too important to forfeit. And of course spells with huge AoE or multiple targets. Here some examples: Disintigrate, Slow, Firestorm, Delayed Fireball (especially after charging), Meteor Storm, Mass Suggestion   Quickened Spell: Most combat spells, be it buff or destruction.   Subtle Spell: To use enchantment out of combat without raising aggro. Or to use out-of-combat buffs sneakily, like Enhance Ability to Charisma to make your bard that much reliable. Or to Disuise Self in the broom closet.   Twinned Spell: Strong Single Casts (like Disintegrate or Finger of Death) or single-buffs (making two Haste work is pretty damn good), since you actually targets one more creature instead of casting the spell twice, you can maintain concentration without problems for both.   If you want to master certain spells which aren't connected by school, you might be better of with the sorcerer's metamagic. Like the Slow Spell, which is pretty strong, but Heightened it's that much better.     Conclusion: I think the sorcerer can be either a great spell-slinger, with the negative of burning really fast out. His second strength is to be able to make some spells count more (with Heightened and Empower), which is a form of resource management. And you shouldn't underestimate his buff potencial, since he can get twice as many targets for some SP, but some of the best buffs are low-leveled. And at least some of the major debuff effects which are difficult to use, when enemies and allies begins to mix can be used with less care. And the best part: You can individualize it to your means.   If you want to be a spell-burner: Empowered, Twinned, Quickened, Heightened/Distant Resource Manager: Empowered, Extended, Heightened, Twinned Debuffer: Careful, Extended, Distant/Twinned, Heightened Supporter: Twinned, Quickened, Distant, one of choice     And this is regardless further features due your subclass and the things the wizard simply can't do (except twinning Single Target Enchantments) despite having 8 subclasses.
#33 wills2009 Sep 05, 2014 18:04:47	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#34 wills2009 Sep 05, 2014 21:42:43	wills2009 wrote:
#35 woif Sep 05, 2014 21:57:07	What about using crown of madness? Won't last that long as they roll to save every round, but you can still throws other spells while maintaining it with an action. Don't have my PHB on hand so I can't check if it's on h the sorcerer list or not.
#36 Psikerlord Sep 06, 2014 3:23:29	wills2009 wrote:
#37 wills2009 Sep 06, 2014 16:08:37	Psikerlord wrote:
#38 wills2009 Sep 07, 2014 15:20:54	I did some theorycrafting last night with a sorcerer using quicken to spam nukes as well as using it with the sunbeam trick. Definitely some pretty impressive numbers compared to just regular casting and it's unique to the class. And yes that was just damage, obviously being able to throw debuffs or buffs and still do damage is pretty amazing too. I'm still having a hell of a time picking spells for the sorcerer though. There's so many level 2 and 3 spells especially that I want. Even if I forgo spells of certain levels later on there's just no way to get that many of them. Take level 2. Invisibility, scorching ray, mirror image, misty step, hold person, enhance ability.... Don't even mention 3rd level which has traditionally had a good couple handfuls of spells you really want to have. It makes me want to multiclass just to get more spells known. Might be what I end up doing. I wish there were other ways to expand your spell list a little. Would be nice if the bloodlines had a small list of bonus spells known...
#39 JRMoore Sep 07, 2014 16:55:09	I've just dug into 5e and find the changes to casters to be somewhat... miserable.  Please tell me how I am wrong.  I mean that.  I see that the wizard's ability to buff other players (prot fm good/evil, stoneskin, haste, magic weapon) is effectively gone and the spells I list not worth putting in the book.  Many stock-and-trade defenses, like shield and stoneskin are laughably pathetic, and the concentration plague eliminates stacking of the few that remain useful.  I hate to ask this, but are casters expected to wear armor now through some feat?  Do they require something cast from other classes?  Otherwise, how are they expected to survive beyond 2nd level?   I'm only a few days into this new version and had high hopes but my initial thought is that I'm better off dusting off the 3.5 books.  Please tell me that others don't agree.
#40 wills2009 Sep 07, 2014 17:15:51	JRMoore wrote:
#41 Psikerlord Sep 08, 2014 0:05:47	Concentration casters with buffs/debuffs etc are perfectly viable with the warcaster feat (Adv on con saves). I think the one concentration spell at a time restriction is good for balance.
#42 Chakravant Sep 08, 2014 12:12:04	ppaladin123 wrote:
#43 danyc Sep 08, 2014 14:33:48	I think people are really undervaluing Heighten. There are very few on-call options to give disadvantage on saves and most are fairly high level (Eldritch Knight 10, Arcane Trickster 9, Cleric of Light 17 for fire/radiant, Oath of Ancients 20). Certainly, there are combo ways to do it with other spells or conditions, but most of those will take multiple actions.  So Sorcerer seems to present the strongest basis for an actual save or die (or save or disable, more realistically) style of caster in 5e.
#44 wills2009 Sep 08, 2014 14:46:06	danyc wrote:
(Reply to #44) danyc	wills2009 wrote:
#46 2Chlorobutanal Sep 09, 2014 6:13:04	I agree about the usefulness of Heighten Spell.  Wild Mages can combine it with Bend Fate for additional penalties on super high-priority targets.
#47 Knight_Marshal Oct 18, 2014 8:56:37	One thing I would like to see dragon sorcerers get is the elemental substitution feat that allows them to switch any elemental spell they cast to their draconic element so that anything but a fire sorcerer doesn't suck.
#48 Huntsman57 Oct 18, 2014 18:51:54	wills2009 wrote:
#49 the_move Oct 18, 2014 23:36:13	Well, I think that judging the sorcerer only by using blast spells is a bit "one-sided". Actually the twinned spell and quicken spell are fantastic. Twinned Spell provides a second single target spell cast simultaneously for as much sorcery points as the spell lvl. That's better than buying a spellslot, economy-wise. Twinned haste on two strong (weapon attack) party members for 3 sorcery points is a very good deal. Since the sorcerer has proficiency in con saves, concentration spells are a not too bad investment, I suppose.   Quickened fireball, scorching ray or whatever while maintaining Eyebite or Sunbeam with a regular action...for 2 sorcery points...not a bad deal either. 3 sorcery points for a quickened Fireball followed up by a twinned Firebolt... at lvl11+ a Firebolt deals 3d10(+CHA) damage. Provided there are two valid targets (remaining) a twinned Firebolt for 1 sorcery points is rivaling a default scorching ray, which is a 2nd lvl spell.   15 spells may not be much, but depending on your setup it can be enough for you to take one of many roles - supporter, controller or damage dealer - during a fight, maybe even two at once. In general I think this class isn't nearly as underpowered as some people here are taking it for... if it is underpowered at all.
#50 Knight_Marshal Oct 24, 2014 3:57:44	Here is an idea I am looking at added to my game if I ever GM.   Energy Substitution. Level 3     Sorcerers due to the inherent nature of their magic can adjust the properties of it when casting it. One of the properties that can be adjusted in the type of damage the spell does. A sorcerer can change the damage of any sorcerer spell known to another damage type. This does not work on other types of spells gained by another method as spells gained through study or granted by a deity are more rigid and set that a sorcerer's innate magics.   When a sorcerer casts one of his spells he can change the damage type done using one sorcery point.per casting of the spell. A dragon blooded sorcerer can choose the damage type of his draconic ancestor without having to use a sorcery point and a wild magic sorcery can also choose not to use a sorcery point, but the chaotic nature of their magic will cause the spell to suffer a wild surge when doing so.     I tried to word this so that only spells that are gained by the sorcerer spells known can be used this way.