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| #1ChaosmancerAug 09, 2014 11:53:03 | I don't want this to devolve into an optimization thread or a discussion on how terrible X, Y or Z is, but after looking through my PHB (yay pre-orders) I'm a little ambivalent about the new sorcerer when compared to the wizard or warlock.
Sorcerers get the same # of spells known as the warlock (with the wizard blowing both of them out of the water), but neither needs to prepare spells like the wizard does.
Sorcerers get the same # of slots as a wizard, with warlocks well behind but they do get slots back at a short rest.
But I'm not completely sure how sorcerery points compare to the wizard abilities and the warlock invocations.
Quite a few of the invocations add permenant effects or cantrip like spells and warlocks get better armor and weapons than either wizards or sorcerers.
Some of the wizard abilities are amazing, though obviously specialized, and they can recover slots on a short rest
Sorcerery points can be used to create extra slots, and you get to pick two of the metamagic feats some of which seem pretty awesome.
But other than that the points don't seem to be used for much and... I don't know. I think everything is fairly equal but my gut reaction after reading the sorcerer was one of being underwhelmed. So what is it I'm not considering, what's the "cool" factor of sorcerers that puts them on par with the other two.
I know it's there I just also know I'm not going to get a chance to be a player and find it for myself for quite a long bit so I'm asking. |
| #2UndrhilAug 09, 2014 12:21:34 | After a long day adventuring, the Wizard and Sorcerer have both used up all of their spell slots for the day, but the Sorcerer still had some Sorcery points. Suddenly, the party is ambushed.
The Wizard is stuck using Cantrips while the Sorcerer can spend two Sorcery Points to regain a 1st level spell slot and cast Sleep, or can spend four Sorcery Points to regain a 3rd level spell slot and cast Fireball.
That is the coolness factor of the sorcerer. Also, depending on which bloodline you chose, you can have more hitpoints and permanent Mage Armor, or you can have the possibility of random effects happening sometimes when you cast a Sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. |
| #3Mephi1234Aug 09, 2014 12:47:26 | Sorcerers can create spell slots, which puts them ahead of the wizard in terms of spells per day. A sorcerer could Twin a level 1 Hold Person spell and hold two people (not sure if its on Sorcerer spell list, but point remains!) for the cost of one Concentration spell, which is huge. Their ability to enhance spell damage is leagues ahead of what a wizard can do.
While the wizard knows tons of spells, the sorcerer can take those spells and make them dance and beg and twist and turn in ways the wizard can only dream of! They can use a fireball to outdistance a shot from a longbow! While a warlock gets lots of innate little tricks from different sources, they in no way specialize their magic like a sorcerer can. Wizards memorize tons of spells, warlocks learn bits of stolen knowledge. Sorcerers take individual spells and master the hell out of each and every one of them. Wizards and warlocks learn how to cast fireball. Sorcerers master fireballs.
That is the difference. Do you want to just cast spells, or do you want them to do things no one else can do? That's the appeal. You know a single spell inside and out in a way no one else does.
Dragon blooded sorcerers also don't have to expend a spell slot or invocation on mage armor, which is handy. Extra damage for their element is also keen.
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| #4OverpromisesAug 10, 2014 17:54:42 | For just straight-up magic, the wizard probably tends to be “better”, though clearly that is subjective.
I am assuming that if you are comparing sorcerer to wizard that implies a Draconic Bloodline rather than Wild Magic.
The most dramatic things dragon sorcerers can do that wizards cannot seem to be permanent flight, permanent mage armor, and casting spells without verbal or somatic components. The rest of the metamagic seems decent but not class-defining.
Some people might also prefer Charisma to Intelligence, and/or appreciate not having to deal with spellbooks. |
| (Reply to #4)reddaemon |
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| #6IgnatiusJ.ReillyAug 09, 2014 15:34:20 | Sadly, the joy you derive from playing a sorcerer will depend on how 'neat' you think his Metamagic or flavorful abilities are. In my opinion, the sorcerer pales in comparison to the wizard. However, many classes pale in comparison to the Wizard, even though somehat crippled by the concentration mechanic (In comparison to other edition save 4th). With regard to the Warlock, I haven't played one, so I can't compare the two.
The Draconic sorcerer gets some buffs such as base AC 13 + Dex mod, +1 HP per level at creation, and a skill buff with dragons. Later, he gets damage bonus to lineage specific elemental damage (ex. Red, Gold, Silver = fire), and resistance to the same element for a sorcery point. Ultimately, the wings are neat and don't eat up a concentration lot, but Fly is twice as fast, wizards have easy access to Protection from Elements (but can't Twin it, see below), eight hour Mage Armor, and Ritual Casting without need of a feat for his utility spells. Also, keep in mind that the Wizard has the same number of slots for casting, Arcane Recovery, and a larger spell list. Max socery points are around 10 (+4 returned after short rest at 20th level) and the max number of known spells is 15, five fewer than the Bard, not including Magical Secrets (the Bard is awesome in this edition!).
Sorcery points are few and largely relegated to the only trick the sorcerer has - Metamagic. The Metamagic is neat, but potentially underwhelming depending the DM and game in question.
Careful Spell (1 point) can exclude your Cha mod in friendlies from area effects by allowing them to save automatically, but only really applies to a small range of spells unless Rogues and Monks with Evasion are the friendlies in question (I assume multiple saves are automatically successful. Otherwise, friendlies would need to get in and out of the area affect before another save was required). Overall, neat, but it's hard to compete with Sculpt spell. Further, if the DM rules that only the initial save is warded then numerous spells would yield friendly fire. Examples of spells that it can apply to, if you exclude spells that will yield half damage on a save or disable party members: Color Spray (lasts one round), Web (Concentration), Stinking Cloud (Concentration), Fear, Confusion (Concentration), Gust of Wind (Now also Concentration), etc. This is undeniably pretty cool if multiple saves are warded against. These spells are extremely situational when I play a wizard, so I rarely cast or prepare them for that matter.
Quicken Spell (2 points) allows one to swift cast a spell of casting time 1 action (grants a bonus action when cast). You can use the bonus action to cast a cantrip or attack. Neat, yes, especially after Haste was nerfed. However, for two points, one could find a better application. It is quite demonstrative however since cantrips are so good.
Twin Spell allows you to split a single target spell to affect two targets for a socerery point cost equal to the spell's level. In play, I assume that a Hold Person twinned is not two concentration spells ( a wizard would need to cast Hold Person at the third level to get this effect). This can stretch out your spells further. Most importantly, if it allows two concentration spells to be active, even if they are the same concentration spell it's undeniably cool. You do have limited capacity to buff your allies and yourself - pretty neat. Let's see the Wizard do that!
There are some other Metamagics, but I haven't used them in play. Make sure that your DM interprets these metamagics and the spell list in the same manner you do, as your spell picks are limited. One DM of mine considered Magic Missile a multiple target spell since it can potentially target more than one creature. Hence, he ruled that it couldn't be Twinned, even though I was casting MM at a single target. Luckily, he is no longer one of my DMs anymore. I don't expect most DMs to be this silly however, but it never hurts to be sure.
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| #7AshrymAug 09, 2014 15:54:31 |
Wizards have broader versatility in the number of spells available while sorcerers have more versatilty within the specific spells known. Sorcery points give a degree of manipulation beyond what wizards can do with spells and without taking a specific tradition for the benefit. Wizards generally focus on low level spells because of the way their ritual casting and arcane renewal features work, and later spell mastery. |
| #8PsikerlordAug 10, 2014 5:06:35 | Cant sorcerers cast a usually one action spell as a bonus action by using their metmagic? So 2 x lightning bolt in one round? If so thats some crazy burst. No phb in australia for another 2 weeks, alack, but I get the impression sorcdrors will be the best at what they do, care of metamagic, but obv have less flexibility than wizards, and less stayinv power than warlocks with their short rest resets. I suspect the ritual caster feat, magic initiate feat, and scrolls and magic items, will go a long way to adding flexibility to the sorceror, as well as possible multiclassing with cleric/druid for some scalable divine/nature spells. |
| #9DyndrilliacAug 10, 2014 3:53:10 | Sorcerer goes great when multiclassed with Warlock. |
| #10Mephi1234Aug 10, 2014 4:46:59 | Warlock is pretty terrible when multiclassed with another caster. The lack of stacking spell slots really hurts. You lose out on a metamagic, feat, or origin boost plus extra spell levels and points for very low level boosts.
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| #11DyndrilliacAug 10, 2014 5:00:20 | They do stack, just not the same way as other classes with the Spellcasting feature. A multiclassed Warlock/Sorcerer can use Sorcerer spell slots to cast Warlock spells and Warlock spell slots to cast Sorcerer spells. The only down side is the Sorcerer slots require a long rest to use again whereas the Warlock slots get renewed at any rest. The only Sorcerer features lost by a 2-level dip into Warlock are a couple of Sorcery points, a 6th-level spell slot, a 7th level spell slot, and the Sorcerous Restoration feature. In exchange they get 2 Warlock cantrips, 2 Warlock invocations, 2 1st-level Warlock spell slots, 3 1st-level Warlock spells, and the 1st-level Patron feature of your choice. |
| #12AtomicPopeAug 10, 2014 5:05:25 |
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| #13AtomicPopeAug 10, 2014 5:24:51 | Wizards and Sorcerers are very different, despite having nearly identical spell lists. The metamagic abilities allow you to tailor each individual spell, which Wizards can't really do. The Sorcery Points are a way to limit how much they can manipulate their spells by making it a perishable resource. Think of it like this:
Is Arcane Recovery the same as Sorcerous Recovery? No. Focus vs Versatility
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| #14PsikerlordAug 10, 2014 6:09:39 |
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| #15Mephi1234Aug 10, 2014 6:01:27 |
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| #16reddaemonAug 10, 2014 13:14:16 | Dipping three levels to get an imp familiar almost seems worth trailing behind on spells to me. Average of 15 damage per round(on a failed save) and pretty beefy with resistances and immunities. Not to mention having advantage on the first attack it makes each combat. It does more damage than your cantrips would. The only thing it seems to be lacking in is AC, but if you have a Staff of Defense, you hit it with Mage Armor every day and you're set. Hmmmmm... I will have to look into this and see.... |
| #17PsikerlordAug 10, 2014 15:45:33 |
Oh geez yeah I just read sorceors dont even get all those metamgic options, just start with 2 and slowly gain 2 more... oh woe indeed. Looks like sorceror wont be appearing much in 5e, hmmm yeah I dont jnderstand what niche it is supposed to fill. |
| #18Mephi1234Aug 10, 2014 17:41:56 |
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| #19AtomicPopeAug 10, 2014 18:16:22 |
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| (Reply to #16)Undrhil |
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| (Reply to #17)Ashrym |
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| #22PsikerlordAug 11, 2014 1:06:03 |
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| #23Mephi1234Aug 11, 2014 4:02:58 |
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| #24MarandahirAug 11, 2014 5:55:03 | I still really want a Dagger-channelling Metamagic option, so I can play my Dagger Melee Sorcerer from 4e. |
| #25Mephi1234Aug 11, 2014 6:38:18 |
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| #26SorxoresAug 12, 2014 6:39:17 |
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| #27woifAug 12, 2014 10:46:34 | if I'm not mistaken it seems like you guys are overlooking a fairly major feature of sorcerer. The flexible casting feature allows them to trade in lower level spells for more spell points , which can then be trade in for the highest level spell slots. Lets day for whatever reason you absolutely have to cast fireball 5 times in one day, sorcerer can do that for you, and even empower them while he's at it. now I'm not saying that they are the best casters in the game, but I think they are much better than this thread gives them credit for. Also can't wizard only use his arcane recovery feature "once per day when you finish a short rest"? And not every short rest like some people are implying. |
| (Reply to #27)Chaosmancer |
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| #29woifAug 12, 2014 12:53:38 | the point of converting your spell slots into points is so you can then convert them to other spell slots. Lets look at an example of a 5th level sorcerer. You have 4/3/2 spell slots. You spend your first 9 rounds of the day converting them all to sorcery points, added to the 5 you get from level that's a total of 32 points in a day. Now if we really wanted to we could use all those points and cast fireball 6 times (or any other 3rd level spell) or lets say you really need to cast sleep a lot, with your sorcery points you can create 16 1st level spell slots. Now those are two extreme and fairly unlikely scenarios, but it demonstrates the versatility the sorcerer has when casting from his small list of spells known. Is it broken OP? No. Does it provide you with a depth of options not available to the other arcane casters? Yes.** edit** nevermind my math is way off, I misread the "converting spell slots to sorcery points" section. It's much less useful than I thought. The actual numbers end to being closer to 5 3rd level spells or 12 1st level slots. Still an interesting option, but not nearly as good as i wanted. |
| #30melloredAug 12, 2014 13:10:08 |
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| #31AshrymAug 12, 2014 21:57:52 |
Twin spell is nice. Wizards cannot fly at will either. I didn't see a limit on extra spell slots, so correct me if I missed it, but at 20th level I could spend all my sorcerer points on low level slots, take 5 short rests, and start with 10 levels of bonus 1st level slots and all my sorcerer points. |
| (Reply to #31)Sorxores |
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| #33Mephi1234Aug 13, 2014 5:46:44 |
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| #34AshrymAug 13, 2014 11:34:41 |
Yeah, a lot of people use calculations assuming one short rest but it's possible to take many. Opportunity to take them depends on the adventure so it could be none in infiltrating a hobgoblin stronghold or easy in a city or wilderness set of encounters. |
| #35IgnatiusJ.ReillyAug 14, 2014 0:42:23 |
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| #36KarlBAug 15, 2014 19:52:03 | Uhm ... metamagic, while situational, can be incredibly powerful.
- Empowered Spell: More or less guaranteed high damage blast. - Heightened Spell: When you *really* need that enchantment to land on the captain of the guard before he orders his 30 soldiers to attack you. - Quickened Spell: As someone mentioned above, cantrips are actually pretty strong for spells that don't take a slot, so the ability to cast both a main attack spell and a cantrip *in the same round* is kinda strong. Plus if you are multiclassing with a melee class, you can cast a fireball, move in, and multi-attack. In the same round! Nothing says you have to use your main action to cast a spell here. - Subtle Spell: You get chained up and gagged. Wouldn't it be awesome to charm that guard into freeing you without having to say a word? - Twinned Spell: This one is GODLY. You can use a potent single target spell ... and hit two targets with it. In the same round. *Without using an additional spell slot*. And here's an interesting kicker ... a spell that requires concentration can still be used on two different creatures because it's still the same one spell targeted twice. So yes, you can absolutely use Dominate Person on two different targets without a problem with Twinned Spell. As far as I'm concerned, this metamagic ability should be on *every* sorcerer build.
It's true that you only get two of these to start, and up to four later, but that's a decent tradeoff for how powerful these can be if used right. Also note that you can trade in spell slots for more of these. Don't care about those level 1 spell slots anymore? Cash all four of them in for 8 sorcery points and that's four more Quickened spells. It takes a bonus action, but nothing says it has to be done in combat, right? You can do all that converting while brushing your teeth ;)
The power of the sorcerer is the ability to NOVA. While a wizard casting a school focused spell is dangerous, those spells outside their speciality are really kinda meh compared to what a sorcerer can do with the right metamagic abilities. |
| (Reply to #13)Furion_Thamior |
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| #38SorxoresAug 16, 2014 13:01:48 |
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| #39Hyphen_Aug 16, 2014 14:15:16 |
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| (Reply to #39)MusicOfCreation |
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| (Reply to #40)Souffle |
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| #42DeltabeoulveAug 16, 2014 22:22:20 |
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| #43Mephi1234Aug 17, 2014 7:08:32 |
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| #44ppaladin123Aug 17, 2014 7:51:43 |
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| #45ZenzeiAug 17, 2014 9:40:27 | Quicken spell is also pretty neat with spells that require you to spend actions after casting them to get full benefit. For example, various dominates, telekinesis, eyebite and sunbeam (maybe there are more). With such spells and quicken spell metamagic you can have something resembling actual double spell casting power per turn as long as you have sorcery points to burn for quickened normal spells. |
| #46Mephi1234Aug 17, 2014 9:57:47 |
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| #47SorxoresAug 17, 2014 10:11:30 |
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| #48ppaladin123Aug 17, 2014 10:38:47 |
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| #49Mephi1234Aug 17, 2014 10:58:14 |
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| #50DeltabeoulveAug 17, 2014 13:52:00 |
I've been thinking the Sorc 18/Warlock 2 isnt all that bad. Agonizing Eldritch Blast is much more powerful than Firebolt (assume level 11 you have a 3d10 vs 3x 1d10 with Charisma bonus for each ray (assuming you have 20 charaisma)), thats 15 damage without rolling the damage dice. Granted you have to roll a hit for each one. While you cant twin it, you can certainly quicken it to cast it twice as it is a cantrip. Add Hex into the mix and you have 1d6 for each of the rays. Thats quite a bit better than a firebolt.
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| #51Mephi1234Aug 17, 2014 16:58:44 |
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| #52ChaosmancerAug 18, 2014 12:18:48 | When I started looking into my sorcerer concept I wanted spell sniper ( I love being super accurate) and ran into the eldritch blast vs firebolt. My conclusion was that since I wanted spell sniper either way I would just use them for different things. Firebolt for big damage against things not resistant to fire, Eldritch blast for when I want to hit a lot of different targets or when my targets were immune to fire.
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